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Doji Takashi

How much retcon can L5R bear?

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Just because your favorite white-haired, blue-clad samurai gained breasts and a ****** doesn't make her any less badass. "This is how it was before," isn't a valid argument since this isn't AEG doing a retcon to their flagship IP. This is FFG's IP and they can create their own story, with their own characters (I don't remember Altandarnai ever being a character).

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6 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

I'd point out that 'perversions' is quite a strong word and you may want to reconsider it.

Well, Doji Satsume just died in peculiar circumstances, before any sort of coup.  Also, the Champion of the Unicorn Clan is Shinjo Altanserai, a woman.

Thank you for the hint! I usually choose my words carefully. Accourding to Oxford Living Dictionaries a perversion is "Distortion or corruption of the original course, meaning, or state of something." which is exactly what I mean. Regarding your second comment - I explained my standpoint already.

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How boring would the game be if the exact same story were told in the new edition? I don't want to know every twist and turn of the story before it happens. Have you ever tried watching a mystery movie more than twice (once completely blind, a second time to see all the hints and go "woooow, foreshadowing.")? It's often very boring watching a story play out that has no surprises.

 

I look forward to the new story that will be told by FFG and the players controlling the story decisions. It's a brave new world folks. Let's embrace it and look forward to what is ahead of us.

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7 minutes ago, Doji Takashi said:

Of course I assume that. As you point out yourself it is about the name. Change it and then you may change everything else - I do not care! But as long as the name stands for a specific setting I expect it to be this setting.

I'm not sure that I understand you correctly : Do you suggest that it would have been better for FFG to rename L5R / Rokugan 'n' stuff ? They wouldn't have to buy the IP in the first place if that was the case. Is it your point ?

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10 minutes ago, magikot said:

Just because your favorite white-haired, blue-clad samurai gained breasts and a ****** doesn't make her any less badass. "This is how it was before," isn't a valid argument since this isn't AEG doing a retcon to their flagship IP. This is FFG's IP and they can create their own story, with their own characters (I don't remember Altandarnai ever being a character).

I ignored posts like this so far but yours is simply over the top. Do not talk about a "valid argument" when you demonstrate in the same post that you have no idea what that is nor what I am talking about in the first place. I did make my argument but you choose to ignore it, instead you repeat what others said multiple times already.

Edited by Doji Takashi

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5 minutes ago, Doji Takashi said:

Thank you for the hint! I usually choose my words carefully. Accourding to Oxford Living Dictionaries a perversion is "Distortion or corruption of the original course, meaning, or state of something." which is exactly what I mean. Regarding your second comment - I explained my standpoint already.

"Perversion" has been, and still is being in some places, used as an excuse to persecute people who are involved in relationships like the one between Hotaru and Kachiko.  Using it there can be interpreted to mean approval of such anti-lesbian feelings.

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1 hour ago, Doji Takashi said:

I love and play L5R RPG since the early 2000's. I always hated the story development parts which were caused by random tournament outcomes. When Yakamo and Hitomi replaced Amaterasu and Onnotangu respectively and the Hantei line ended I was devastated. I was somewhat mollified when Jade Dragon and Obsidian Dragon took over, so I understand the urge to write a coherent story. But why would FFG change Doji Hoturi, one of the most prominent and well established characters in Rokugan's history, to "Doji Hotaru"?!? I know this only by chance - are there more perversions like this I am not aware of?

I'm pretty sure Tolkien spent many sleepless nights in anguish before changing Teleporno into Celeborn

C'mon. They are fictional characters. The important part is the story, not if you call them Minnie or Mickey Mouse. I'm fascinated: old timers want the game to be EXACTLY how it was. If you want so, no probs, but then keep on playing the old one

Edited by Julia

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Since you're a RPG player and if you dislike any change to the setting so much, all the previous editions of the game are still there with the setting you like. What FFG do with L5R doesn't have to make any impact on your RPG setting. An exact retell of AEG's storyline wouldn't make any sense and you stated you didn't like it either. 

The strength of a RPG is that you can take what you want and change what you want. You don't like the change FFG made and you hated AEG story? No problem, keep the original pre-SCC setting and make your own story as it makes sense to you.

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You don't like the new version of Rokugan, but you didn't like the original story a lot of the time either, it seems.
 

Also: Yakomo and Hitomi becoming the Sun and Moon was not a 'retcon'. A retcon is when something in a story that was already established is later retroactively changed. 

Example: The original creators of L5R (mostly John Wick, Dave Williams, with some original concepts by Matt Wilson) made it clear that Togashi had indeed been around on Rokugan for 1,000 years, could see at least some of the future (if didn't interfere directly in events), and was an actual dragon (as in, a celestial dragon; he even talked to the Elemental Dragons to get Hida a new wife and thus a son). Several years later, the lead writer for the game changed a lot of that. After his retcon, Togashi wasn't really a celestial Dragon, he could just take on a dragon-like form. He couldn't see the future, just predict what would happen based on how similar events in the past had played out. Probably the biggest change was that Togashi couldn't actually live longer than normal humans, or at least not much. He had to keep putting his soul into special members of his follower monks, destroying who they were in the process. None of those changes were necessary, and they actually created more storyline issues than they 'fixed' (for instance, Togashi's son Hoshi - he was, and remained, a half-dragon beast man with major mystical powers, and could shapeshift as well. If his dad wasn't a dragon, then why was Hoshi half-dragon?).

In any case, changing some of the characters in a brand new version of Rokugan is also not a retcon, really. If you absolutely can't enjoy a new version of L5R's characters and story, that's a shame. Personally, while I'm sure there's a lot I'll miss from 'Old5R', I'm also glad to leave behind the mess the story had become in many ways.

 

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4 minutes ago, Doji Takashi said:

I ignored posts like this so far but yours is simply over the top. Do not talk about a "valid argument" when you demonstrate in the same post that you have no idea what that is nor what I am talking about in the first place. I did make my argument but you choose to ignore it, instead you repeat what others said multiple times already.

You know what, you're right, I was over the top. But between these forums, Reddit, and the L5R groups on facebook complaining about the reboot, the lack of Mantis and Spider, and especially the Hoturi is now Hotaru, seeing another post calling it a perversion made me lose it. I apologize for taking that frustration out on you.

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On ‎5‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 10:01 AM, Julia said:

I'm pretty sure Tolkien spent many sleepless nights in anguish before changing Teleporno into Celeborn

C'mon. They are fictional characters. The important part is the story, not if you call them Minnie or Mickey Mouse. I'm fascinated: old timers want the game to be EXACTLY how it was. If you want so, no probs, but then keep on playing the old one

There are many old-timers - like me (played since the original launch of Imperial) - that are mostly happy to have a fresh start, for various reasons.

Edited by Togashi Gao Shan
fixed a typo

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7 minutes ago, MrMenthe said:

I'm not sure that I understand you correctly : Do you suggest that it would have been better for FFG to rename L5R / Rokugan 'n' stuff ? They wouldn't have to buy the IP in the first place if that was the case. Is it your point ?

Thanks for asking and not stupidly alleging something I did not say - unlike so many others here. Yes, that is exactly my point! I do not care that FFG make such changes if they do not suggest by using the name it would be the same. It raises expectations which cannot be fulfilled.

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I've been following the story from Time of the Void and was only on hiatus during Celestial and Samourai. Came back in Emperor Edition, but I've felt that the best years of the Storyline were a thing of the past.

I'm really happy about the reboot, and I'm also really happy about FFG changing characters and events. I want to be surprised when I read fictions, I don't want to see old stories I've already read rewritten.

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21 minutes ago, Doji Takashi said:

I usually choose my words carefully. Accourding to Oxford Living Dictionaries a perversion is "Distortion or corruption of the original course, meaning, or state of something." which is exactly what I mean.

That's what Oxford says, but actual people typically use the word to refer to sexual deviance or abhorrence.

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29 minutes ago, Togashi Gao Shan said:

Yakomo and Hitomi becoming the Sun and Moon was not a 'retcon'. A retcon is when something in a story that was already established is later retroactively changed.

Thanks, I do know what a retcon is and in my post I brought the Sun/Moon phenomenon up as my apperciation for consistancy. But one could argue that it is a retcon to the set Heavenly Order which was - up to that point - an integral part of the setting.

Edited by Doji Takashi

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32 minutes ago, KnightofSquires said:

Im not going to lie, i just read this whole thread from first post to last, and im struggling to understand what this argument is actually over... from either side really... 

Long story short: I am disappointed because of magnitude of the reboot and others seem to like it. That is really all this is about.

Edited by Doji Takashi

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1 minute ago, KerenRhys said:

I honestly don't understand this position. To take an example, I saw Sam Raimi's Spiderman, then Marc Webb's one, and I didn't expect to have the exact same film/story. I'm pretty sure you didn't either. How is this case any different?

Agreed.  I just think of this along the same lines of Marvel and DC.  There will be retcons, alternate timelines and such.  I am glad they don't feel they need to restrain themselves to one "difinitive" time line that would leave so many great stories untold.  

I don't feel that nu5R is taking away from old5R.  Those stories are there for all to read and enjoy.  This is opening up the L5R universe to a whole new audience as well as telling a (hopefully) great new story for those who have followed and loved L5R over the years.

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29 minutes ago, Doji Takashi said:

Thank you for the hint! I usually choose my words carefully. Accourding to Oxford Living Dictionaries a perversion is "Distortion or corruption of the original course, meaning, or state of something." which is exactly what I mean. Regarding your second comment - I explained my standpoint already.

Oxford Living Dictionaires provides a second definition:

Sexual behaviour that is considered abnormal and unacceptable"

It's directly under the one you quoted.  Did you miss it or just choose not to quote it?

 

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To answer the original topic... L5R already has accepted a virtually complete rewinding of the story.  From a business standpoint it is a good thing for two very simple reasons:

1) FFG is trying to attract new players.  20 years of baggage is an extreme burden to that goal.  Not just for new players, but for the FFG staff themselves (who may not be very well versed with L5R history).  If the "old players" are so adverse to that kind of change, no problem...  they can avoid the new game.  However, FFG is betting that players like Doji Takashi are not going to outweigh the influx of new players overall.  Judging from the overall responses in this forum, FFG appears to be correct.

2) FFG needed to trim the number of playable factions in the base set... ideally while minimizing the fallout among returning players.  Rewinding the timeline to before Mantis and Spider existed was a simple and efficient way to accomplish this goal.  I am saying this as a Mantis player... it is a little sad for me, but I understand and agree with their business decision.  

 

Thaddok

 

PS: Fingers crossed that Mantis gets reintroduced in the first deluxe expansion :)

Edited for clarity

Edited by Thaddok

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