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Doji Takashi

How much retcon can L5R bear?

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Just to be clear, I have no problems with other weapons being wielded by samurai in the setting. The point being made above was about katana in particular. I'm actually a big fan of other weapons, including the more outlandish ones like kusari-gama, man-catchers, etc. Hotaru CAN use a katana, certainly, but she favors the naginata, while Daidoji Nerishma fights with a three-headed spear, a variation of a jūmonji yari. I think we're likely to see lots of different weapons being used in the upcoming stories. And who knows, some of them may even break (at the most dramatically inopportune time, of course).

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32 minutes ago, YasukiKaito said:

Draw-Lot Plays! Crab culture at its finest!

Probably the second best moment of my wciv experience was the Dawn of the Empire draw lot play.

I need to find a way to turn a draw lot into a campaign.

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Draw lot Campaign: you play a group of Crab that do draw lot a lot, and main body of each story is about them getting into characters and playing the story, while the supporting body of the story is about what's between the plays - friendships, annoyances, and so on.

Crab Slice of Life.

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6 hours ago, WHW said:

There is a certain perception-media bias that causes people to think "wow, so many women characters!" as soon as 3 out of 9 characters are women. 3 out of 9 is still twice as much men as women.   50:50 is usually "too many" and spread where there are more women than men is surprising at best, feminismwrong at worst. 

So what you are saying is if its not 50/50 its bad?

I'm going to be frank here this is a game about samurai warriors in a setting loosely based on Feudal Japan. The fact that there are any women as warrior protagonist not to mention 3 out of 9 is better then real life.

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In real life, you also don't throw fireballs by asking fire spirits nicely.  Neither they did in feudal Japan.  

Are women in Fantasy Samurai World That's Being Reimagined more unrealistic and immersion breaking than that? And answering your question: the closer to 50/50 the better, with the caveat that sometimes you might have a good reason to disrupt the balance. But when you don't? Why not? 

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For all the people talking about equal representation being a good thing to grow the gaming scene, and for those that say FFG bought the license so can do as they chose, I have a simple question?

Were are the dark skinned people?

1. Dark skin people make up a huge proportion of the world's population.  Does FFG want to include them in gaming or are they not worthy of consideration?

2. Since this is a completely fictional setting, not based on reality, were are the dark skinned people?  In our world, it makes sense for "Japan" of that era, but this same is not based in Japan.  It is an entirely new world where magic works, they are building a wall to keep out demons(in Japan?, not China). etc.

Again, where are the dark skinned people?

If that is "pushing" the story too far, please leave details as to why that do not reference the "old lore" or the "real world" and talk about how getting more people into gaming is not in the interest of FFG as a company.  Unless having dark skin people in the game, and into the hobby  will drive away those who do not like dark skinned people.

This is not to say diversity is a bad thing, just to say diversity is diversity and one should not focus on a few types and ignore other types.

I am excited to join a new LCG from the start.  This looks like a good opportunity for me to join.  I just got into board gaming in December of 2015 after having given up Magic the Gathering in the early 1990's.

I do not know any of the old lore or anything.  But I am willing to learn a new LCG from the start.

Edited by Syrmon
Additional thoughts

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1 hour ago, Syrmon said:

2. Since this is a completely fictional setting, not based on reality, were are the dark skinned people?  In our world, it makes sense for "Japan" of that era, but this same is not based in Japan.  It is an entirely new world where magic works, they are building a wall to keep out demons(in Japan?, not China). etc.

It is based on various Asian cultures, but with an emphasis on Japan because it is a samurai fantasy. So while it is not literally Japan, it does share much of Japan's traditional culture, including its desire for homogeneity, and drawing upon its real-world inspirations the people of Rokugan end up looking Asian across the board. Even the Unicorn, of whom many share ancient blood ties with the other clans, are frequently looked upon with scorn for appearing even slightly different. While there could be dark-skinned people (presumably of foreign descent) living in Rokugan, realistically they would receive a lot of that same scorn and xenophobia, and for obvious reasons that is not a direction AEG chose to go, and I do not expect FFG's stance to be any different.

Edited by Ide Yoshiya

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1 hour ago, Syrmon said:

...

I am excited to join a new LCG from the start.  This looks like a good opportunity for me to join.  I just got into board gaming in December of 2015 after having given up Magic the Gathering in the early 1990's.

I do not know any of the old lore or anything.  But I am willing to learn a new LCG from the start.

I believe you have come to the right place. You are welcomed. :)

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21 minutes ago, LordBlunt said:

I believe you have come to the right place. You are welcomed. :)

1 hour ago, Syrmon said:

I do not know any of the old lore or anything.  But I am willing to learn a new LCG from the start.

I wish to echo this sentiment. I hope my reply did not come off as harsh in any way; I merely intended it to be thorough, for as you say, you aren't familiar with the previous iteration's lore.

Edited by Ide Yoshiya

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4 hours ago, WHW said:

In real life, you also don't throw fireballs by asking fire spirits nicely.  Neither they did in feudal Japan.  

Are women in Fantasy Samurai World That's Being Reimagined more unrealistic and immersion breaking than that? And answering your question: the closer to 50/50 the better, with the caveat that sometimes you might have a good reason to disrupt the balance. But when you don't? Why not? 

4 hours ago, Syrmon said:

For all the people talking about equal representation being a good thing to grow the gaming scene, and for those that say FFG bought the license so can do as they chose, I have a simple question?

Were are the dark skinned people?

1. Dark skin people make up a huge proportion of the world's population.  Does FFG want to include them in gaming or are they not worthy of consideration?

2. Since this is a completely fictional setting, not based on reality, were are the dark skinned people?  In our world, it makes sense for "Japan" of that era, but this same is not based in Japan.  It is an entirely new world where magic works, they are building a wall to keep out demons(in Japan?, not China). etc.

Again, where are the dark skinned people?

If that is "pushing" the story too far, please leave details as to why that do not reference the "old lore" or the "real world" and talk about how getting more people into gaming is not in the interest of FFG as a company.  Unless having dark skin people in the game, and into the hobby  will drive away those who do not like dark skinned people.

This is not to say diversity is a bad thing, just to say diversity is diversity and one should not focus on a few types and ignore other types.

3 hours ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

It is based on various Asian cultures, but with an emphasis on Japan because it is a samurai fantasy. So while it is not literally Japan, it does share much of Japan's traditional culture, including its desire for homogeneity, and drawing upon its real-world inspirations the people of Rokugan end up looking Asian across the board. Even the Unicorn, of whom many share ancient blood ties with the other clans, are frequently looked upon with scorn for appearing even slightly different. While there could be dark-skinned people (presumably of foreign descent) living in Rokugan, realistically they would receive a lot of that same scorn and xenophobia, and for obvious reasons that is not a direction AEG chose to go, and I do not expect FFG's stance to be any different.

Wow could not have set this up if I wanted to.

But, this is a great counter argument. I personally was going to use the pendragon argument. 

If you are making a game on king arthur would you have half or even 3 or 4 of the knights of the round table be female just so its even. 

But still in a setting representing Japan samurai fantasy AEG chose to do it. 

As Syrmon put it why is one ok and the other not ?

 

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12 hours ago, Mirumoto Saito said:

Lets have less "magical-über-katana" and more visceral battles and dramatic tension where weapon break, armor get smashed and people **** themselves, please! 

I want both. Let's have clearly established power levels with each step being a significant league above the preceding one. For example:

- Bottom of the food chain is the Ashigaru (conscripted soldier) who can 1-on-1 other Ashigaru-tier opponents (like goblins). Ashigaru is equipped with whatever they can get, so there is a wide variety of stuff on this level, from sharp sticks and some ragged clothes (conscripted eta) to multiple masterwork weapons and high quality heavy armor (conscripted merchant prince). 

- A Budoka (professional soldier) can face a dozen Ashigaru, and emerge victorious, though not unscathed. Budoka is equipped with whatever is assigned to them with personal secondary equipment: sturdy medium armor, role-related weapons (yari for line infantry, nagamaki/tetsubo/ono/no-dachi for shock infantry, and so on), and then some custom stuff (some Budoka might prefer short straight swords for secondary weapons, while others would carry around something like a kama, or a throwing axe for a nasty surprise). 

- Samurai (all three flavors, with Bushi being half-a-level above Artisans and Courtiers) can kill a whole squadron of forty Budoka (or a whole company of three-hundred Ashigaru) and not break a sweat. They use whatever they feel is the best for them - Samurai are not fooling around, one of them can start with a bow for picking out enemies at range, then switch for a naginata to get stuck in melee, and end up with his trusty katana when things get too tight. Bushi in particular excel in any and all combat situations, regardless of their basic training (a Hida Bushi can pepper an opponent with arrows no problem, and trying melee with a Tsuruchi Archer is not as good of an idea as one would think). 

- Sohei and Shugenja are only a little above Samurai, because their spells/kiho kinda break the system and they are admittedly unique cases when it comes to assessing martial prowess.

- The apex predators are the various Elite Bushi and similar high-end opponents like Oni. They can take on multiple Samurai and mow down an infinite number of Budoka/Ashigaru without effort. Elite Bushi is equipped with whatever their focus is put on:  a Mirumoto Swordmaster will only use a katana and a wakizashi, because anything else would actually make him worse. You can say that at this level, equipment is largely irrelevant - a Kenshinzen will dice up a foot soldier and a horseman with the same ease using his katana. 

This way, you can have your gritty and grounded combat at the Ashigaru/Budoka level, have an intermediate feel of things with Samurai, and go full Wuxia Magical Realm with Elite Bushi. If you are brave enough, you can even mix them all up for MAXIMUM DIVERSITY and some really brutal scenes. 

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6 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

Wow could not have set this up if I wanted to.

But, this is a great counter argument. I personally was going to use the pendragon argument. 

If you are making a game on king arthur would you have half or even 3 or 4 of the knights of the round table be female just so its even. 

But still in a setting representing Japan samurai fantasy AEG chose to do it. 

As Syrmon put it why is one ok and the other not ?

 

If I were creating a historical fantasy novel set in identifiable historical (or legendary) period of British history using pre-estabilished set of characters? Probably not.,,,but depending on the story I would want to write  and how much away from "historicial novel" I would want to get, I could flirt with the idea of gender bending them. Maybe I would turn all of them into women :P! 

But if it was a Fantasy Pseudo Britain Called THE KINGDOM that is *inspired* by the arthurian legends, and is not their 1:1 retelling or copy? I wouldn't even blink. Ability to create slightly anachronistic societies that have place for female knights and warriors (etc) is one of reasons for me to write and read fantasy over a period fiction.  

Though this is my favorite King Arthur Pendragon of all times

:PRelated image

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4 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

I want both. Let's have clearly established power levels with each step being a significant league above the preceding one. For example:

- Bottom of the food chain is the Ashigaru (conscripted soldier) who can 1-on-1 other Ashigaru-tier opponents (like goblins). Ashigaru is equipped with whatever they can get, so there is a wide variety of stuff on this level, from sharp sticks and some ragged clothes (conscripted eta) to multiple masterwork weapons and high quality heavy armor (conscripted merchant prince). 

- A Budoka (professional soldier) can face a dozen Ashigaru, and emerge victorious, though not unscathed. Budoka is equipped with whatever is assigned to them with personal secondary equipment: sturdy medium armor, role-related weapons (yari for line infantry, nagamaki/tetsubo/ono/no-dachi for shock infantry, and so on), and then some custom stuff (some Budoka might prefer short straight swords for secondary weapons, while others would carry around something like a kama, or a throwing axe for a nasty surprise). 

- Samurai (all three flavors, with Bushi being half-a-level above Artisans and Courtiers) can kill a whole squadron of forty Budoka (or a whole company of three-hundred Ashigaru) and not break a sweat. They use whatever they feel is the best for them - Samurai are not fooling around, one of them can start with a bow for picking out enemies at range, then switch for a naginata to get stuck in melee, and end up with his trusty katana when things get too tight. Bushi in particular excel in any and all combat situations, regardless of their basic training (a Hida Bushi can pepper an opponent with arrows no problem, and trying melee with a Tsuruchi Archer is not as good of an idea as one would think). 

- Sohei and Shugenja are only a little above Samurai, because their spells/kiho kinda break the system and they are admittedly unique cases when it comes to assessing martial prowess.

- The apex predators are the various Elite Bushi and similar high-end opponents like Oni. They can take on multiple Samurai and mow down an infinite number of Budoka/Ashigaru without effort. Elite Bushi is equipped with whatever their focus is put on:  a Mirumoto Swordmaster will only use a katana and a wakizashi, because anything else would actually make him worse. You can say that at this level, equipment is largely irrelevant - a Kenshinzen will dice up a foot soldier and a horseman with the same ease using his katana. 

This way, you can have your gritty and grounded combat at the Ashigaru/Budoka level, have an intermediate feel of things with Samurai, and go full Wuxia Magical Realm with Elite Bushi. If you are brave enough, you can even mix them all up for MAXIMUM DIVERSITY and some really brutal scenes. 

I semi agree, because I don't like putting Sohei and Shugenja above Bushi :P. If you go full wuxia, go full wuxia and let me split the heavens with a skysplitting sword method of thirty eight masters!

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11 hours ago, Syrmon said:

For all the people talking about equal representation being a good thing to grow the gaming scene, and for those that say FFG bought the license so can do as they chose, I have a simple question?

Were are the dark skinned people?

1. Dark skin people make up a huge proportion of the world's population.  Does FFG want to include them in gaming or are they not worthy of consideration?

2. Since this is a completely fictional setting, not based on reality, were are the dark skinned people?  In our world, it makes sense for "Japan" of that era, but this same is not based in Japan.  It is an entirely new world where magic works, they are building a wall to keep out demons(in Japan?, not China). etc.

Again, where are the dark skinned people?

If that is "pushing" the story too far, please leave details as to why that do not reference the "old lore" or the "real world" and talk about how getting more people into gaming is not in the interest of FFG as a company.  Unless having dark skin people in the game, and into the hobby  will drive away those who do not like dark skinned people.

This is not to say diversity is a bad thing, just to say diversity is diversity and one should not focus on a few types and ignore other types.

I am excited to join a new LCG from the start.  This looks like a good opportunity for me to join.  I just got into board gaming in December of 2015 after having given up Magic the Gathering in the early 1990's.

I do not know any of the old lore or anything.  But I am willing to learn a new LCG from the start.

This is the equivalent of having a game about native americans long before europeans arrived and having the usual individual appearing to ask "Where are black people?".

While some of the characters may not look asian enough, you do not get in L5R a "Where are the fair skinned folk?". Curious.

 

Quote

Since this is a completely fictional setting, not based on reality, were are the dark skinned people?

They do not exist because it is a fictional setting. How is that for an answer? Because while we do not know FFG's position about non asian people (why do you only care about dark skinned people, eh?), it could be a valid answer for their campaign setting. And no one would have any right to complain about it.

Unless you propose blackwashing...:lol:

Meanwhile, regular people are just happy having some minimum to identify themselves with: being a man or a woman*. More than a few men cannnot enjoy games that protrait a female protagonist but have no issues with male protagonists even if they are of different skiin colour. Women are not alien to that. So making a world were men and women get similarly represented makes more sense for L5R than adding colours to the palette (beyond the asian colours... it is not like all the asians look the same).

Now, about white people playing an asian themed game being cultural appropriation...:rolleyes:

* inb4 someone starts demanding binaries and similars to be represented :rolleyes:

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28 minutes ago, WHW said:

I semi agree, because I don't like putting Sohei and Shugenja above Bushi :P. If you go full wuxia, go full wuxia and let me split the heavens with a skysplitting sword method of thirty eight masters!

Uh, well, Bushi is already above Samurai, so on par with (or better off than) Sohei/Shugenja, I just did not want to split up the Samurai level ;)

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1 hour ago, WHW said:

If I were creating a historical fantasy novel set in identifiable historical (or legendary) period of British history using pre-estabilished set of characters? Probably not.,,,but depending on the story I would want to write  and how much away from "historicial novel" I would want to get, I could flirt with the idea of gender bending them. Maybe I would turn all of them into women :P! 

But if it was a Fantasy Pseudo Britain Called THE KINGDOM that is *inspired* by the arthurian legends, and is not their 1:1 retelling or copy? I wouldn't even blink. Ability to create slightly anachronistic societies that have place for female knights and warriors (etc) is one of reasons for me to write and read fantasy over a period fiction. 

You don't even have to be a-historical.  I'll have to check my source but I vaguely remember reading something about Nubian Mummies in the UK, left their by Nubian Legionaires/Auxillary  stationed at Hadrian's Wall.

@AtoMaki

I think our tastes differ immensly. 1 Samurai killing hundreds of (armed) people without breaking a sweat is, for me personally, not a Rokugan I'm intrested in.

Edited by Mig el Pig

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15 hours ago, Syrmon said:

 

Were are the dark skinned people?

 

I am excited to join a new LCG from the start.  This looks like a good opportunity for me to join.  I just got into board gaming in December of 2015 after having given up Magic the Gathering in the early 1990's.

I do not know any of the old lore or anything.  But I am willing to learn a new LCG from the start.

Dark skinned people are in the Burning sands and pretty sure most unnamed Unicorns are.

Rokugan is based on Asian myth, mystery and culture though majority is Feudal Japan but not solely based on that. Xenophobia is part of the setting.

also welcome to L5R, might be a good idea to pick a clan while waiting for the official release. 

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