Jump to content
Doji Takashi

How much retcon can L5R bear?

Recommended Posts

I love and play L5R RPG since the early 2000's. I always hated the story development parts which were caused by random tournament outcomes. When Yakamo and Hitomi replaced Amaterasu and Onnotangu respectively and the Hantei line ended I was devastated. I was somewhat mollified when Jade Dragon and Obsidian Dragon took over, so I understand the urge to write a coherent story. But why would FFG change Doji Hoturi, one of the most prominent and well established characters in Rokugan's history, to "Doji Hotaru"?!? I know this only by chance - are there more perversions like this I am not aware of?

Edited by Doji Takashi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Ser Nakata said:

I think the regenderization happened to align actual champions with their founding Kami.

Lady Doji => Hotaru.

 

That might be possible but it does not justify the change a bit in my opinion. Being the reincarnation of the First Crane Clan Thunders, Hoturi would represent the gender of the twin (Yasurugi) who was not able to strike out into the Shadowlands on the First Day of Thunder. It does not feel balanced at all to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, ok, but I think it's not about the Thunder, but about the founding Kami.

Hida => Hida Kisada

Lady Doji => Doji Hotaru

Togashi = Togashi Yokuni

Akodo => Akodo Arasou

Shiba => Shiba Ujimitsu

Bayushi => Bayushi Shoju

Lady Shinjo : Shinjo Altansarnai (instead of Yokatsu)

The only genderbending we've seen so far is to align with the kami, disregarding the gender of the Thunders.

You know, maybe this time it won't be Hotaru the Crane Thunder. Maybe none of the Thunder we once knew will be thunders this time.

 

 

Edited by Ser Nakata
mistake between Isawa and Shiba

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Suzume Tomonori said:

The story will probably be less of a "retcon" and more of an alternate dimension/timeline.

If you're expecting basically the same story to be told again, I get the feeling you're going to be disappointed.

I was not expecting basically the same story to be told again but rather to be continued.

 

5 minutes ago, Matrim said:

its not a retcon. Its a new world. The sooner you stop comparing apples and oranges and enjoy it the happier you will (hopefully) be.

Then FFG should rename it.

 

You both are probably correct regarding expectations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Ser Nakata said:

Yes, ok, but I think it's not about the Thunder, but about the founding Kami.

Hida => Hida Kisada

Lady Doji => Doji Hotaru

Togashi = Togashi Yokuni

Akodo => Akodo Arasou

Isawa => Shiba Ujimitsu

Bayushi => Bayushi Shoju

Lady Shinjo : Shinjo Altansarnai (instead of Yokatsu)

The only genderbending we've seen so far is to align with the kami, disregarding the gender of the Thunders.

You know, maybe this time it won't be Hotaru the Crane Thunder. Maybe none of the Thunder we once knew will be thunders this time.

 

 

Um, the Phoenix Kami is Shiba, not Isawa (despite what some members of Isawa's family might think). :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Doji Takashi said:

That might be possible but it does not justify the change a bit in my opinion. Being the reincarnation of the First Crane Clan Thunders, Hoturi would represent the gender of the twin (Yasurugi) who was not able to strike out into the Shadowlands on the First Day of Thunder. It does not feel balanced at all to me.

Since we had Mirumoto and Mirumoto Hitomi as Dragon Thunders in the original storyline, either the sex has no impact of reincarnation or 2d gen thunders are not reincarnations of the first gen ones (and since Atarasi ended as an Akutenshi, it's doubtful he would have reincarnated as Yakamo...).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, KerenRhys said:

Since we had Mirumoto and Mirumoto Hitomi as Dragon Thunders in the original storyline, either the sex has no impact of reincarnation or 2d gen thunders are not reincarnations of the first gen ones (and since Atarasi ended as an Akutenshi, it's doubtful he would have reincarnated as Yakamo...).

Dunno about that.  Yakamo did have an oni's hand for a while.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Matrim said:

why? They own the license. They can do as they will and so far i am happy with what they have done. I appreciate some people might be too institutionalised with the ccg to do the same which is a pity but ni reason for ffg to change anything.

Of course they can. But you made your argument against yourself considering your earlier post: If an apple is not an apple on the inside then your metaphor does not work.

You "appreciate" and call it a "pity" at the same time and talk about "too institutionalised with the ccg" while I clearly stated I was playing the RPG - it makes no sense at all. I understand that you like what FFG is doing, I do not. So let us agree on that we do not agree with each other, shall we?

Edited by Doji Takashi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Doji Takashi said:

I was not expecting basically the same story to be told again but rather to be continued.

I'd assume many are disappointed with a reboot over a continuation. However, for the same reasons that Disney opted for its own timeline for Star Wars, I believe FFG decided to reboot L5R for similar reasons. So players who weren't even born when much of the old canon was written could start on a clean slate, and not be intimidated by literally a generation's worth of backstory. I may be disappointed with the decision, but I can acknowledge the logic and support it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

Dunno about that.  Yakamo did have an oni's hand for a while.

My point was more that I don't think the soul of an Akutenshi go to the reincarnation cycle. I'm sure Yakamo wouldn't have mind too much indeed. :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, KerenRhys said:

Since we had Mirumoto and Mirumoto Hitomi as Dragon Thunders in the original storyline, either the sex has no impact of reincarnation or 2d gen thunders are not reincarnations of the first gen ones (and since Atarasi ended as an Akutenshi, it's doubtful he would have reincarnated as Yakamo...).

I was refering to the earlier mentioned alignment not that a reincarnation has to be of the same gender per se but by that "logic" it should.

Edited by Doji Takashi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As someone who took part in a massive retcon, I would say the setting can take a lot and still remain true to itself. In its core, you really only need three things for the full effect:

- The Five Rings and stuff themed around them

- Color-coded clans with strong thematic emphasis

- Samurai (in some shape or form)

Once you have these, the setting can be about (almost) anything, and it will still feel like Rokugan. You can ditch the geography, the society, most of the political stuff, customs, families, even whole factions, and ultimately it will make little difference in the end. 

It isn't Hoturi being a dude that makes Rokugan, if you know what I mean. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Zithaska said:

I'd assume many are disappointed with a reboot over a continuation. However, for the same reasons that Disney opted for its own timeline for Star Wars, I believe FFG decided to reboot L5R for similar reasons. So players who weren't even born when much of the old canon was written could start on a clean slate, and not be intimidated by literally a generation's worth of backstory. I may be disappointed with the decision, but I can acknowledge the logic and support it. 

I appreciate your attempt of objectivity but as I implied before: Why then use the exact same name which stands for a different thing? Also I do not like the "It does not hurt!" approach, I am the "Is it beneficial?" type and I do not think it is in this case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: The topic question: A lot more than it's gotten so far. For one thing, we have a stated desire by the story director to focus on inter-clan conflict and personal stories about samurai struggling to reconcile their virtues with their deeper desires. We're finally getting the samurai drama L5R always wanted to be but couldn't because of Emperors being possessed and foreign gods attacking Rokugan and s***.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

As someone who took part in a massive retcon, I would say the setting can take a lot and still remain true to itself. In its core, you really only need three things for the full effect:

- The Five Rings and stuff themed around them

- Color-coded clans with strong thematic emphasis

- Samurai (in some shape or form)

Once you have these, the setting can be about (almost) anything, and it will still feel like Rokugan. You can ditch the geography, the society, most of the political stuff, customs, families, even whole factions, and ultimately it will make little difference in the end. 

It isn't Hoturi being a dude that makes Rokugan, if you know what I mean. 

Thank you for your input! I strongly disagree.

Edited by Doji Takashi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Doji Takashi said:

I love and play L5R RPG since the early 2000's. I always hated the story development parts which were caused by random tournament outcomes. When Yakamo and Hitomi replaced Amaterasu and Onnotangu respectively and the Hantei line ended I was devastated. I was somewhat mollified when Jade Dragon and Obsidian Dragon took over, so I understand the urge to write a coherent story. But why would FFG change Doji Hoturi, one of the most prominent and well established characters in Rokugan's history, to "Doji Hotaru"?!? I know this only by chance - are there more perversions like this I am not aware of?

I'd point out that 'perversions' is quite a strong word and you may want to reconsider it.

Well, Doji Satsume just died in peculiar circumstances, before any sort of coup.  Also, the Champion of the Unicorn Clan is Shinjo Altanserai, a woman.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, JRosen9 said:

One, you are assuming the original thunders are the same people.   For all we know they may be different. 

Two, I'm fine with the reboot but I wish FFG changed every name.  That way no one could have preconceived notions about what has happend and what should happen. 

Of course I assume that. As you point out yourself it is about the name. Change it and then you may change everything else - I do not care! But as long as the name stands for a specific setting I expect it to be this setting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Doji Takashi said:

That might be possible but it does not justify the change a bit in my opinion. Being the reincarnation of the First Crane Clan Thunders, Hoturi would represent the gender of the twin (Yasurugi) who was not able to strike out into the Shadowlands on the First Day of Thunder. It does not feel balanced at all to me.

Then don't like it. Clearly your mind is made up. Nothing stopping you from playing old5R still. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...