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4 minutes ago, Joe From Cincinnati said:

I think he's saying that a company like FFG would probably rather bring 1000 units, and sell 850 of them than bring 500 and sell all 500.

Of course, it may be that in terms of production, they can get 500 units done and to them at $x each before Gencon, but the next 500 would arrive after Gencon normally, so would needs to be done at a premium rate of $3x if they wanted to stock them.  At which point...

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13 minutes ago, Joe From Cincinnati said:

I think he's saying that a company like FFG would probably rather bring 1000 units, and sell 850 of them than bring 500 and sell all 500.

Maybe. Think about the last time you paid shipping and handling on an item. Multiple that by 150. Double it (to get it there and back) How many bills could you pay with that money?

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13 minutes ago, Shu2jack said:

Why? Not having enough stock means you sold it. Presumably at a profit. Dead stock is a loss.

 

Again, What business do you run?

Others have subsequently answered this question... we are not talking dead stock in a store, we are talking stock at Gencon, which can then be sent on-wards to retails. We are not talking about ffg doing unnecessary large printing runs, obviously there is a balance and I don't know ffg business model details. My whole point is that having extra stock at Gencon, (which will not end up dead stock) can be worth it from a good will perspective, towards its future players and needs be considered against potential costs.  It is not a simple to much = bad. 

The relevance of what business I do or do not run, I don't see, to understand the buisness economics of the situation. However for completeness I don't run a business ( I'm in a very different field). My brother runs a professional service business, and my dad is a senior manager at a major corporation, so I've been listening to conversations on this stuff most of my life... and my partner, she has run and mangers large retails shops. So I have a pretty good understanding of how these things are run. 

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6 minutes ago, Isawa Tasatu said:

Others have subsequently answered this question... we are not talking dead stock in a store, we are talking stock at Gencon, which can then be sent on-wards to retails. We are not talking about ffg doing unnecessary large printing runs, obviously there is a balance and I don't know ffg business model details. My whole point is that having extra stock at Gencon, (which will not end up dead stock) can be worth it from a good will perspective, towards its future players and needs be considered against potential costs.  It is not a simple to much = bad. 

The relevance of what business I do or do not run, I don't see, to understand the buisness economics of the situation. However for completeness I don't run a business ( I'm in a very different field). My brother runs a professional service business, and my dad is a senior manager at a major corporation, so I've been listening to conversations on this stuff most of my life... and my partner, she has run and mangers large retails shops. So I have a pretty good understanding of how these things are run. 

I think you are grossly overestimating how much "good will" simply stocking more stuff would win with players.  Yes, there are bound to be some people who will fail to get product and will spit and rage and vow never again to buy another FFG game because the experience left a sour taste in their mouths, and these same people may be absolutely ecstatic if FFG has sufficient product to the point of swearing unswerving fealty and naming their firstborn child "Fantasy Flight" in return!

However, I expect that for the vast majority of people, whether or not FFG has enough product is unlikely to significantly change their view of the company.  Most people who get product will probably not be thinking, "By the grace of FFG have I received this!"  Most people who don't get product will probably be thinking something along the lines of, "Oh, well.  I guess I should have gotten into line earlier.  Hey, I wonder what that booth is showing!"

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4 minutes ago, Shu2jack said:

Maybe. Think about the last time you paid shipping and handling on an item. Multiple that by 150. Double it (to get it there and back) How many bills could you pay with that money?

Well, I don't think it would be multiplied by 150, as shipping is typically done in a bulk method. So shipping one thing may cost ~5 dollars, but shipping 20 things may only cost ~20 dollars. So there's definitely a savings the more you ship.

But I definitely see your argument. 

The economic benefit will depend entirely on a few factors: Shipping price per unit, shipping price fluctuations based on number of units being shipped, sale price vs manufacture price and, ultimately, how many are sold.

I can't make those decisions for FFG but the point that was being made was if FFG sells out with hundreds of people still wanting for more core sets, they'll possibly end up losing money, even if it means  overstocking makes them ship a couple hundred units home.

     

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7 minutes ago, Joe From Cincinnati said:

Well, I don't think it would be multiplied by 150, as shipping is typically done in a bulk method. So shipping one thing may cost ~5 dollars, but shipping 20 things may only cost ~20 dollars. So there's definitely a savings the more you ship.

But I definitely see your argument. 

The economic benefit will depend entirely on a few factors: Shipping price per unit, shipping price fluctuations based on number of units being shipped, sale price vs manufacture price and, ultimately, how many are sold.

I can't make those decisions for FFG but the point that was being made was if FFG sells out with hundreds of people still wanting for more core sets, they'll possibly end up losing money, even if it means  overstocking makes them ship a couple hundred units home.

     

While yes, cost of shipping is...complicated the more you put out. It goes by weight and dimension, and while you can get discounts for bulk, it's still a surprising amount of money. add in distance traveled, and even by ground you could be paying a lot of money to ship a product, and the less you have to ship it around, the better.

I work in distribution, shipping sucks and costs a crap ton of money, even in bulk. The amount of money we end up flushing down the drain to ship something to a place, only to have to ship it back is insane.

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This game has a release date of October. not July. Gen Con is not the release of the game, it is a celebration of a new game done for the PR that Gen Con creates. It is a way to get Limited product into a few hands to build word of mouth for the Actual release and Launch that will take place later. All of Gen Con is a PR stunt and having only 350 copies would have been enough to pull nit off. Every additional sale at the booth is unneeded and logistically a loss. 

L5R will be available to the general public on its release date in October.

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While I agree that GenCon is a PR stunt, I think that having only 1 copy for each ticket would be bad PR for FFG (and as far as I know, FFG brings way more copies than they sell launch event tickets - otherwise, I wouldn't have been allowed to buy 3 copies of AGoT2's Core Set 2 years ago). More copies sold allows more people to hype others before general availability, which potentially means more sales after. Also, even if FFG brought 3,000 Core Sets to Gen Con, that would still be a Limited release compared to the Actual release.

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26 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I think you are grossly overestimating how much "good will" simply stocking more stuff would win with players.  Yes, there are bound to be some people who will fail to get product and will spit and rage and vow never again to buy another FFG game because the experience left a sour taste in their mouths, and these same people may be absolutely ecstatic if FFG has sufficient product to the point of swearing unswerving fealty and naming their firstborn child "Fantasy Flight" in return!

However, I expect that for the vast majority of people, whether or not FFG has enough product is unlikely to significantly change their view of the company.  Most people who get product will probably not be thinking, "By the grace of FFG have I received this!"  Most people who don't get product will probably be thinking something along the lines of, "Oh, well.  I guess I should have gotten into line earlier.  Hey, I wonder what that booth is showing!"

Quote

And no I don't think that ffg is going to lose customers because of a lack of stock at Gencon as most people are pretty reasonable and recognize this is not the actual release, I`'m just pointing out having to much stock is not necessarily bad. 

Please note the earlier statement I made....
Also I have not criticized ffg, I have not made a comment that they will bring to much or  to little stock. I simply pointed out that having extra stock is not necessarily a bad thing and needs to weighed against the good will of the players, the advertising that Gencon provides and all the other business ramifications that is not directly about making profit off the product at Gencon but long term effects. 

And no I did not expect, having made a simple comment regarding having a bit of extra stock at Gencon, for this to turn into a business model discussion of effective cost versus potential profit and running of business. and pro's and cons' thereof... but I suppose this is the internet. 

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I understand the points you guys are making.

When ever I hear "Good Will" from customers what I really hear is "I want to short you so I can have something and be happy."

Could FFG shift leftovers forward to retailers? Maybe. Perhaps they don't want officially unreleased product in the hands of other retailers. Or maybe they don't want to pick and choose who gets the extra product. One person gets "Good Will", others then complain about favoritism. It is happening with some on this forum who are not getting what they wanted, even they they (at least should've) known the situation. Maybe they want to create a feeding frenzy and get people pushing for an exclusive product and ride some noise off of that. I don't know. We don't know.

Not directing this at any one person, but I think some are dishonoring themselves. Others are being disrespectful by suggesting how FFG should or can run their operations. I know I love how to be told how to do my job or how I can do it better. We don't know of the hundreds of issues they have to consider that led to their decisions. I love this forum. I love the discussions. I got excited for this game. This thread and another similar one is a black mark. Who openly questions the Emperor (FFG)?

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1 hour ago, Shu2jack said:

Could FFG shift leftovers forward to retailers? Maybe.

The answer is no. FFG/Asmodee is under contract to distribute to (US-side) retailers through Alliance. Distributing to retailers any leftover product from GenCon on their own would not only put FFG under the hock for the cost of shipping from GenCon (which is not a prime place to expedite your shipping experience), it would find them in breach of contract from both Alliance and the retailers who signed up to be with Alliance, to say nothing of potential lawsuits from retailers who might take issue with whatever method FFG used to pick which retailers got leftover GenCon goodies and which ones didn't.

Many gamers don't seem to realize just how expensive and clunky the modern gaming shipping procedure is, and how little leeway there is to mess around with it (if there was more leeway, problems such as the shortages Star Wars: Destiny saw would not be as common). Rerouting one hundred boxes of product isn't just like sending one hundred more postcards, and that's before legal obligations for shipping and distribution monies get involved.

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5 minutes ago, Gaffa said:

The answer is no. FFG/Asmodee is under contract to distribute to (US-side) retailers through Alliance. Distributing to retailers any leftover product from GenCon on their own would not only put FFG under the hock for the cost of shipping from GenCon (which is not a prime place to expedite your shipping experience), it would find them in breach of contract from both Alliance and the retailers who signed up to be with Alliance, to say nothing of potential lawsuits from retailers who might take issue with whatever method FFG used to pick which retailers got leftover GenCon goodies and which ones didn't.

Many gamers don't seem to realize just how expensive and clunky the modern gaming shipping procedure is, and how little leeway there is to mess around with it (if there was more leeway, problems such as the shortages Star Wars: Destiny saw would not be as common). Rerouting one hundred boxes of product isn't just like sending one hundred more postcards, and that's before legal obligations for shipping and distribution monies get involved.

Thank you! Another aspect to running their business that many - myself included - didn't know about.

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You understand, that a lot of the early stuff they sell at Gencon are shipped by air from China, right? And not in the much more cost efficient container over sea. That adds a significant cost. Which is also why they tend to limit it. 

And just because they are going to one distributor, I do not think they are giving up their own warehouses. Even without the new deal, any leftovers still wouldn't be sold till release. 

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FFG OVERprinted core sets, as in they printed more than they thought they'd need.  The product still sold out. The demand was underestimated. 

What i feel could have been managed better was the launch event ( gencon ). I feel like ppl that stood in the queue for hours shouldnt be offered a core set at a mark up , by a dude that got there first and bought 5 sets, and now that its sold out, is selling it back at a profit.   Mebbe for that specific event they should have had a limit to the core sets per person per trip through the queue.  ( 3 being a playset seems like a decent number ? ). When they got on low supply they just drop that number down to 1 till they sell out. 

A friend of mine travelled all the way from SOUTH AFRICA, stood in the queue, declined the scalpers, got to the front to be told the boxes sold out. That musta suuuucked. 

That aside, i don't hold any beef with ffg.  I think ppl just need to chill out and wait for the stock to arrive. 

Edited by Machinea

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