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haritos

Why are you crying about Mindlink?

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6 hours ago, Kingsguard said:

Tip: You could sound like less of a jerk if you changed the title of this thread to "Why do you object to mindlink?"

 

knowing is half the battle! *Drives away in Humvee*

 

But people are crying, they are not objecting :)

 

On 5/28/2017 at 1:51 PM, Ram said:

Yeah... Are you even understanding that I am not in any way saying "leave the ships alone!"? Do you understand the point that all these great ships are being equipped with the same EPT? Why do you think that is? Because those ships are so awesome that they are played with a weaker upgrade?

If you are uncapable of understanding that a problem may consist of more then one part there is very little I can do. 75% of the high ranked squads play the mindlink. 

And your conclution like most of your reasoning is wrong. I dont care about any specific ships or faction. I want a ballaned and diverse playfield with multiple strong strategies. 

 

Mindlink is a great upgrade. Thats why the put in on those broken ships. Just like you said, why put anything weaker?

That still doesn't make mindlink broken. Please, try to process this. I have repeatedly put it this simply:

J5k/Rau/Asajj: Amazing ships, extremely strong performance with or without mindlink (most notable non mindlink builds: pre-nerf dengaroo, pre nerf triple scouts, current dengar-tel)

Mindlink: Great upgrade for almost all scum lists, and extremely strong performance when paired with the ships mentioned above.

 

Logical conclusion: If those ships perform extremely well with or without mindlink, but mindlink needs those ships to shine, then you first have to look at the ships. You cannot see it from any other angle if you are just adding together the pieces. IF and ONLY if after fixing the ships, you still saw mindlink lists dominate tournaments (1000$ bet you wouldn't, and I wish people had the balls to admit it) THEN you would look at mindlink.

 

You my friend (or anyone here), simply cannot make the case that mindlink is broken, when there is zero data to support it. Until we see other mindlink fleets dominating tournaments, you just cant make the case. This is not true the other way around, since (some of) those ships are seen in lists not including mindlink (hint: they went on to win worlds).

Put logic before forum propaganda please.

Edited by haritos

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17 minutes ago, haritos said:

Mindlink is a great upgrade. Thats why the put in on those broken ships. Just like you said, why put anything weaker?

That still doesn't make mindlink broken. Please, try to process this. I have repeatedly put it this simply:

J5k/Rau/Asajj: Amazing ships, extremely strong performance with or without mindlink (most notable non mindlink builds: pre-nerf dengaroo, pre nerf triple scouts, current dengar-tel)

Curious that you only mention lists that contain exclusively JumpMasters. Not saying that Rau and Assaj can't be really good without mindlink, but they've never clearly dominated the meta without it.

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On 30 maj 2017 at 7:19 PM, haritos said:

Mindlink is a great upgrade. Thats why the put in on those broken ships. Just like you said, why put anything weaker?

That still doesn't make mindlink broken. Please, try to process this. I have repeatedly put it this simply:

J5k/Rau/Asajj: Amazing ships, extremely strong performance with or without mindlink (most notable non mindlink builds: pre-nerf dengaroo, pre nerf triple scouts, current dengar-tel)

Mindlink: Great upgrade for almost all scum lists, and extremely strong performance when paired with the ships mentioned above.

 

Logical conclusion: If those ships perform extremely well with or without mindlink, but mindlink needs those ships to shine, then you first have to look at the ships. You cannot see it from any other angle if you are just adding together the pieces. IF and ONLY if after fixing the ships, you still saw mindlink lists dominate tournaments (1000$ bet you wouldn't, and I wish people had the balls to admit it) THEN you would look at mindlink.

 

You my friend (or anyone here), simply cannot make the case that mindlink is broken, when there is zero data to support it. Until we see other mindlink fleets dominating tournaments, you just cant make the case. This is not true the other way around, since (some of) those ships are seen in lists not including mindlink (hint: they went on to win worlds).

Put logic before forum propaganda please.

Apart from Dengar and perhaps a few other two ships lists, in what other non-mindlinked lists have those ships won? The triple aces lists are extremely tight points-wise. Mindlink gives enormous bang for buck compared to other strong options like Predator and Push the limit. Many of the lists are pretty much not possible to build with more expensive EPTs. If you increase the cost by 6 points (3 ships going from Mindlink to PTL), you will not be able to fit as good ships in your squad,

The success of the Mindlink scum fleets are for sure a combo of the mindlink and the strength of the ships, especially the JM5K. Regardless what pathetic strawmen you are putting up, I have never stated otherwise. Another strawman is that you repeatedly claim I say mindlink is broken, I have never said that.

But your "reasoning" shows that you simply dont understand squadbuilding, that all things in a list, especially in a tight list like most tripple scum lists are, are connected. You simply can not state that "if you remove the mindlink, the scum ships will still win" and expect anyone that actually understands the game and the math involved to agree with that.

So in short, don't try to promote your own thinking to "logic" and others to "forum propaganda", at least not until you have a clue about the game. Thanks.

 

Edited by Ram

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On 6/1/2017 at 3:40 PM, Ram said:

Apart from Dengar and perhaps a few other two ships lists, in what other non-mindlinked lists have those ships won? The triple aces lists are extremely tight points-wise. Mindlink gives enormous bang for buck compared to other strong options like Predator and Push the limit. Many of the lists are pretty much not possible to build with more expensive EPTs. If you increase the cost by 6 points (3 ships going from Mindlink to PTL), you will not be able to fit as good ships in your squad,

The success of the Mindlink scum fleets are for sure a combo of the mindlink and the strength of the ships, especially the JM5K. Regardless what pathetic strawmen you are putting up, I have never stated otherwise. Another strawman is that you repeatedly claim I say mindlink is broken, I have never said that.

But your "reasoning" shows that you simply dont understand squadbuilding, that all things in a list, especially in a tight list like most tripple scum lists are, are connected. You simply can not state that "if you remove the mindlink, the scum ships will still win" and expect anyone that actually understands the game and the math involved to agree with that.

So in short, don't try to promote your own thinking to "logic" and others to "forum propaganda", at least not until you have a clue about the game. Thanks.

 

You are correct, you didn't say mindlink is broken, you said its the mindlink era. And im telling you it's not the mindlink era, its the J5k era. 

I call everything you and others say in here propaganda because its simply that: endless complaining or baseless arguments.

You are part of the problem, cause you just answer with completely general answers like "all things in a list are connected" or "anyone that actually understands the game and the math involved" wont agree with my statements. Wow! That just convinced me that mindlink is a problem. Pure, textbook propaganda.

I give you concrete, logical statements, which you, and literally everyone in these forums are unable to counter. I tell you you can remove mindlink and these ships will win, and you tell me no, anyone who understands the game will disagree. I wonder who these people are, and if they are so smart, why can they not offer an actual fact that proves this.

Explain to me, why you re not just spreading propaganda when you have zero proof that mindlink dominates without being carried by j5k and friends how I have delusions that im right when you have 2 worlds winning lists that did not use mindlink.

Then come and tell me I have no clue about the game.

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1 hour ago, haritos said:

You are correct, you didn't say mindlink is broken, you said its the mindlink era. And im telling you it's not the mindlink era, its the J5k era. 

I call everything you and others say in here propaganda because its simply that: endless complaining or baseless arguments.

You are part of the problem, cause you just answer with completely general answers like "all things in a list are connected" or "anyone that actually understands the game and the math involved" wont agree with my statements. Wow! That just convinced me that mindlink is a problem. Pure, textbook propaganda.

I give you concrete, logical statements, which you, and literally everyone in these forums are unable to counter. I tell you you can remove mindlink and these ships will win, and you tell me no, anyone who understands the game will disagree. I wonder who these people are, and if they are so smart, why can they not offer an actual fact that proves this.

Explain to me, why you re not just spreading propaganda when you have zero proof that mindlink dominates without being carried by j5k and friends how I have delusions that im right when you have 2 worlds winning lists that did not use mindlink.

Then come and tell me I have no clue about the game.

Why can't jumpmasters AND mindlink both be problems?

Last years worlds did not have mindlink in the winning list, but mindlink hadn't taken off yet at the time.  It wasn't until after worlds that mindlink became a big thing.  And at the time, we had dengaroo, which didn't NEED mindlink to be ridiculously good.

This year, there's 12 scum lists in the top 16.  Justin's is the ONLY one that doesn't have mindlink.  There are a couple others that don't have jumpmasters.  There's a couple more without jumpmasters in the rest of the 7-2s.

In all of day 2, if I counted correctly, I count 10 scum lists without jumpmasters, and 10 without mindlink.  Most of the lists without mindlink either can't use it (quad tlt), or only have 2 ships (where it's not so good).

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I think Fenn Rau with mindlink must be the problem because Nick Belle went unbeaten through Swiss and made the Semis at Worlds (So, 11-1) with Fenn/Asajj/Palob with mindlink. So, even though there were a lot of mindlinked Jumpmasters in the top 16 at Worlds, none of them made it to the semis. If you look at what makes every mindlink list competitive, its Fenn Rau, not the Jumpmaster.

If the Jumpmaster would get nerfed you would simply get different combos of Asajj/Palob/Teroch along with Fenn who would lead each and every one of those lists if they were to be competitive.

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2 hours ago, haritos said:

You are correct, you didn't say mindlink is broken, you said its the mindlink era. And im telling you it's not the mindlink era, its the J5k era. 

I call everything you and others say in here propaganda because its simply that: endless complaining or baseless arguments.

You are part of the problem, cause you just answer with completely general answers like "all things in a list are connected" or "anyone that actually understands the game and the math involved" wont agree with my statements. Wow! That just convinced me that mindlink is a problem. Pure, textbook propaganda.

I give you concrete, logical statements, which you, and literally everyone in these forums are unable to counter. I tell you you can remove mindlink and these ships will win, and you tell me no, anyone who understands the game will disagree. I wonder who these people are, and if they are so smart, why can they not offer an actual fact that proves this.

Explain to me, why you re not just spreading propaganda when you have zero proof that mindlink dominates without being carried by j5k and friends how I have delusions that im right when you have 2 worlds winning lists that did not use mindlink.

Then come and tell me I have no clue about the game.

So then perhaps you could please answer the question about what non-mindlink lists that keep winning except for the dengar one? Perhaps you can tell me what the Mindlink lists would replace the mindlink with and be just as good? Perhaps you can look further then the top list at worlds and see what players play to top positions?  You have  repeated "Dengar won worlds, the jumpmaster is broken!" now for quite some time. You are right, the j5k is overpowered, but your analysis is done with a very narrow vision to be very kind.

I am sorry, but everyone but you understand the power of the mindlink. It is the engine and helper of close to all tripple scum lists. Its just that good. And no, I can not play a five hwks with mindlink and win and yes, the tripple toilet seats will still be good if the mindlink goes away. The j5k is also too poweful. I hope it gets a 2 point cost increase. But the mindlink is all over t16 worlds and all over in the top in a lot of other tournaments as well. There is loads and loads of data. Please look past the first seat at worlds.

Edit: Idid a summary in another thread:

Brazil: Loads of mindlinks, 3 in T8, 2017-04-01
Italy: Mindlink won, not a lot of mindlinks otherwise, 2017-03-26
Hoth System Open 2017: Quite a few mindlinks, 2 in T8, 2017-03-25
Naboo Open 2017: Three mindlinks i T4, 2017-03-19
Tatooine System Open: Lots of mindlink, 3 mindlinks in T4, 2017-03-18

 

Edited by Ram

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52 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Why can't jumpmasters AND mindlink both be problems?

It's possible they are.

But it's also possible only one is.

We absolutely know that JumpBastards are a problem.  The proper thing to do, from a "scientific" perspective, is fix the thing we know is a problem, and then there's nothing stopping an evaluation of the other one.

Mindlink is a fun, flavorful upgrade.  It's powerful -- we know that -- but we don't know that it's broken, or that it will continue its ubiquity in Scum lists once it doesn't have the broken JM5K to hide behind.  We do know that there are a large number of Scum lists on which Mindlink is emphatically not broken.

Let's not throw out this metric crap-top of fun, playable Mindlink lists without finding out if Mindlink is a real problem in and of itself, you know?

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15 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

It's possible they are.

But it's also possible only one is.

We absolutely know that JumpBastards are a problem.  The proper thing to do, from a "scientific" perspective, is fix the thing we know is a problem, and then there's nothing stopping an evaluation of the other one.

Mindlink is a fun, flavorful upgrade.  It's powerful -- we know that -- but we don't know that it's broken, or that it will continue its ubiquity in Scum lists once it doesn't have the broken JM5K to hide behind.  We do know that there are a large number of Scum lists on which Mindlink is emphatically not broken.

Let's not throw out this metric crap-top of fun, playable Mindlink lists without finding out if Mindlink is a real problem in and of itself, you know?

It still has shadowcasters and protectorates to hide behind.  The hard green turns are the main thing that makes mindlink so good.  

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7 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

It still has shadowcasters and protectorates to hide behind.  The hard green turns are the main thing that makes mindlink so good.  

I understand that is your belief.  It's not supported by evidence, and probably can't be supported by evidence until JM5Ks, a confounding variable, are reined in.

If you really believe that Mindlink is a problem, and want it to be proven so Mindlink can be fixed, the best thing you can do, ironically, is stop distracting from getting JM5Ks fixed.

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2 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I understand that is your belief.  It's not supported by evidence, and probably can't be supported by evidence until JM5Ks, a confounding variable, are reined in.

If you really believe that Mindlink is a problem, and want it to be proven so Mindlink can be fixed, the best thing you can do, ironically, is stop distracting from getting JM5Ks fixed.

Non jumpmaster lists with mindlink in the top 16 and other 7-2s is "evidence".  If jumpmasters were so overpowered, there shouldn't have been multiple non-jumpmaster lists with mindlink making it to the top tables.  One of em was even in the top 4.

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1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:

Non jumpmaster lists with mindlink in the top 16 and other 7-2s is "evidence".  If jumpmasters were so overpowered, there shouldn't have been multiple non-jumpmaster lists with mindlink making it to the top tables.  One of em was even in the top 4.

Evidence of being in the Top 4 is not evidence of being broken.  If it were, there would be something new "broken" after every major tournament.

Again, there is evidence the JM5Ks are broken.  There are indications that Mindlink might be too powerful, also.

In order to confirm the latter, we have to get the former out of the way, because it is a confounding variable.

It's really starting to seem like you just have a personal agenda against Mindlink, and don't actually care if it's legitimately broken or not.

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1 minute ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Evidence of being in the Top 4 is not evidence of being broken.  If it were, there would be something new "broken" after every major tournament.

Again, there is evidence the JM5Ks are broken.  There are indications that Mindlink might be too powerful, also.

In order to confirm the latter, we have to get the former out of the way, because it is a confounding variable.

It's really starting to seem like you just have a personal agenda against Mindlink, and don't actually care if it's legitimately broken or not.

The evidence of being broken is that there's only 1 non-mindlinked scum list in the top 16 out of 12 scum lists.  There's more non-jumpmaster lists than there are non-mindlinked lists.

I have no agenda.  I use mindlink myself.  I also use jumpmasters.  But when one of the first things you do if you're flyinga  3+ ship scum list is put mindlink on everyone (unless you aren't using EPTs), it's a good indication of a problem.

Edited by VanderLegion

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