OFFICIAL ANSWER - Assajj Ventress

[Julia 2,809]

Hi folks,

I asked about how Assajj Ventress ' wording is to be interpreted. Her ability says after your opponent discards a card to re-roll, you may (but don't have to) make that player discard "another" card.

This rule has been interpreted both ways; sometimes to mean discard an additional card and on others to discard a different card. Both interpretations are linguistically correct. So, which is the correct intent/interpretation for Assajj Ventress? Does the player discard an additional card (so two cards in total), or is the player being asked to discard a different card?

This is the answer I got from Jeremy Zwirn:

Yes, the "another" in Asajj's ability should be "an additional." Thanks for pointing this out.

[WonderWAAAGH 7,153]

I didn't realize that was a point of confusion. 

[Abyss 376]

Pretty sure it's a point of confusion in the sense of 'I don't want to have to discard another card, clearly the ability doesn't work that way'.

[jimbobiii 44]

18 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

I didn't realize that was a point of confusion. 

Some people are a little dense.

[KalEl814 1,510]

[Darth Landy 296]

Yeah, I'm not sure I see what's so confusing either.  The first card is already discarded, so it would have to say something like "a different card, instead".  Always been pretty clear to me how it works.

[CWahlsten 30]

Oh, it's been up for debate locally. At a tournament just after the pre-release of SoR I played Asajj/Dooku (this was before everyone had gotten their hands on Vibroknives, RIP Count). I had played it as "one additional" for 3 matches, when I went against and opponent that switched the card for another when I said I triggered Asajj's ability. He lit up and told me that IT DOESN'T WORK, ANOTHER CAN ONLY MEAN AN OTHER CARD NEVER AN ADDITIONAL NO QUESTION ABOUT IT AND HE HAS STUDIED ENGLISH AT UNI AND I WAS SURE GOING TO FEEL STUPID WHEN IT TURNED OUT TO BE AN OTHER CARD. The TO ruled it to be an additional card and he went on to place 4th (he lost the match with me due to bad rolls mostly) in spite of the ruling  and complain about the Kylo Promo he got being useless.

So I'm happy about the clarification. 

[Stone37 3,353]

2 hours ago, CWahlsten said:

Oh, it's been up for debate locally. At a tournament just after the pre-release of SoR I played Asajj/Dooku (this was before everyone had gotten their hands on Vibroknives, RIP Count). I had played it as "one additional" for 3 matches, when I went against and opponent that switched the card for another when I said I triggered Asajj's ability. He lit up and told me that IT DOESN'T WORK, ANOTHER CAN ONLY MEAN AN OTHER CARD NEVER AN ADDITIONAL NO QUESTION ABOUT IT AND HE HAS STUDIED ENGLISH AT UNI AND I WAS SURE GOING TO FEEL STUPID WHEN IT TURNED OUT TO BE AN OTHER CARD. The TO ruled it to be an additional card and he went on to place 4th (he lost the match with me due to bad rolls mostly) in spite of the ruling  and complain about the Kylo Promo he got being useless.

[ozmodon 535]

15 hours ago, KalEl814 said:

I agree, why was this in doubt

[Vrock 4]

55 minutes ago, ozmodon said:

I agree, why was this in doubt

OP is from Sweden.  It sounds like there was some debate as to the actual definition...

"discard another card" ==> "discard 'an additional' card" vs. "discard 'a different' card"

Strictly speaking, "another" could be defined either way.  As native English speakers, however, we intuitively know that it's far more likely to mean "an additional" and simply jump to that definition without thinking about it any further.

[WonderWAAAGH 7,153]

39 minutes ago, Vrock said:

OP is from Sweden.  It sounds like there was some debate as to the actual definition...

"discard another card" ==> "discard 'an additional' card" vs. "discard 'a different' card"

Strictly speaking, "another" could be defined either way.  As native English speakers, however, we intuitively know that it's far more likely to mean "an additional" and simply jump to that definition without thinking about it any further.

And there would also be additional verbiage, like "another card instead." What it really comes down to, though, is just how dumb of an ability "a different card" would be, so 3-5 seconds of extra thought should be all it takes to figure out how Ventress works. 

[Stone37 3,353]

Another is a real word with a real meaning:

an·oth·er

əˈnəT͟Hər

determiner & pronoun

1.       used to refer to an additional person or thing of the same type as one already mentioned or known about; one more; a further.

"have another drink"

synonyms: one more, a further, an additional

"have another drink"

2.       used to refer to a different person or thing from one already mentioned or known about.

"come back another day"

*Google Dictionary

3. being one more in addition to one or more of the same kind

*Webster Dictionary 

Edited May 24, 2017 by Stone37

[KrisWall 966]

As someone who speaks 3 languages and lives with a spouse who speaks 4 and reads more, this is a very common issue for non native speakers.

'Another' is an ambiguous word and really shouldn't have been used on the card.  It can mean 'additional' or 'different'.  'Additional' is a much better word to use, as there is no ambiguity.  If you pay attention, you'll almost always see additional in these sorts of card games.

Try to remember that not everyone is a native speaker before insulting them for misinterpreting what turns out to a legitimately ambiguous card wording.

'Different' usage - "Hey mom, is this shirt OK to wear?"  "No, pick another shirt."

'Additional' usage - "It's cold in here." "Grab another blanket."

Both are perfectly acceptable and we differentiate based on context.

With Asajj, context is tough.  Discarding an additional card is bad for your opponent.  Discarding a different card they didn't want to discard to reroll is also bad for an opponent.  "You're discarding that useless card?  Nope, discard a different one instead."  Honestly, if I weren't a native English speaker, I could see this going either way.

[Stone37 3,353]

30 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

As someone who speaks 3 languages and lives with a spouse who speaks 4 and reads more, this is a very common issue for non native speakers.

'Another' is an ambiguous word and really shouldn't have been used on the card.  It can mean 'additional' or 'different'.  'Additional' is a much better word to use, as there is no ambiguity.  If you pay attention, you'll almost always see additional in these sorts of card games.

Try to remember that not everyone is a native speaker before insulting them for misinterpreting what turns out to a legitimately ambiguous card wording.

'Different' usage - "Hey mom, is this shirt OK to wear?"  "No, pick another shirt."

'Additional' usage - "It's cold in here." "Grab another blanket."

Both are perfectly acceptable and we differentiate based on context.

With Asajj, context is tough.  Discarding an additional card is bad for your opponent.  Discarding a different card they didn't want to discard to reroll is also bad for an opponent.  "You're discarding that useless card?  Nope, discard a different one instead."  Honestly, if I weren't a native English speaker, I could see this going either way.

I feel your pain, as I was forced to speak nothing but French for about 8 months.  There was no English guide for me, just a few fellow students who spoke a little English.

That being said, I used words incorrectly at times.  "Etre" is a real French word with a very real meaning.  I often miss used this word.  My fellow students and teachers (sometimes with a snicker) corrected me.  It was not the word that was the problem, but my understanding of the word.  "Another" has a strong definition and meaning in the English language. It is not ambiguous.  It always means being one more in addition to.  

I also understand the challenges of learning to play a game using a language other than one's native.  Destiny is not checkers... it's a complicated game.  Could I play it with all French text and rules?  Sure.  Would I mess up the rules often?  Oh yeah!

[WonderWAAAGH 7,153]

 

46 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

As someone who speaks 3 languages and lives with a spouse who speaks 4 and reads more, this is a very common issue for non native speakers.

'Another' is an ambiguous word and really shouldn't have been used on the card.  It can mean 'additional' or 'different'.  'Additional' is a much better word to use, as there is no ambiguity.  If you pay attention, you'll almost always see additional in these sorts of card games.

Try to remember that not everyone is a native speaker before insulting them for misinterpreting what turns out to a legitimately ambiguous card wording.

'Different' usage - "Hey mom, is this shirt OK to wear?"  "No, pick another shirt."

'Additional' usage - "It's cold in here." "Grab another blanket."

Both are perfectly acceptable and we differentiate based on context.

With Asajj, context is tough.  Discarding an additional card is bad for your opponent.  Discarding a different card they didn't want to discard to reroll is also bad for an opponent.  "You're discarding that useless card?  Nope, discard a different one instead."  Honestly, if I weren't a native English speaker, I could see this going either way.

Discarding a different card isn't "12-15 points and 9 health as a balancing factor" bad, not by any stretch. Especially since all your opponent has to do is pitch any other card in their hand first to bait you into using Ventress' ability. And what mechanism do we use for tracking that first card? Do we set it aside? Does our opponent get to put it back in his hand while he selects something else, perhaps even pretending to have two of the same thing? FFG's usually poor templating notwithstanding, all it takes is about 3-5 seconds of critical thought to realize how unrealistic a "different" card is, unless someone is just trying to game the system. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by WonderWAAAGH

[Mep 2,291]

This is one of those things that you just don't see until pointed out but once it is pointed out, it cannot be unseen.

Don't go trolling on people because you(we) didn't see the alternative meaning here. BTW, FFG has been bad with the language and typos as of late. I wouldn't put too much faith in the working of anything they produce right now.

Example Ventress should read, "discard an additional card" instead of "discard another card".

[WonderWAAAGH 7,153]

Maybe someone can look up the definition of 'trolling' while we're at it. 

[Stone37 3,353]

5 minutes ago, Mep said:

This is one of those things that you just don't see until pointed out but once it is pointed out, it cannot be unseen.

Don't go trolling on people because you(we) didn't see the alternative meaning here. BTW, FFG has been bad with the language and typos as of late. I wouldn't put too much faith in the working of anything they produce right now.

Example Ventress should read, "discard an additional card" instead of "discard another card".

NO!  Another is the proper and correct word.  "Another" ALWAYS means being one more in addition to.  The player has ALREADY discarded a card.  Ventress forces the player to discard another card (one in addition to).  Not a "different card", not "an additional" card... another card (one in addition to).  "Different" and "Additional" also have their own unique meanings.  They are words that are close to, but not the same as "another".

[KrisWall 966]

20 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

 

Discarding a different card isn't "12-15 points and 9 health as a balancing factor" bad, not by any stretch. Especially since all your opponent has to do is pitch any other card in their hand first to bait you into using Ventress' ability. And what mechanism do we use for tracking that first card? Do we set it aside? Does our opponent get to put it back in his hand while he selects something else, perhaps even pretending to have two of the same thing? FFG's usually poor templating notwithstanding, all it takes is about 3-5 seconds of critical thought to realize how unrealistic a "different" card is, unless someone is just trying to game the system. 

This isn't a discussion of whether or not a rules interpretation is good or bad.  It's a discussion of ambiguity in rules text.  The OP found an ambiguity, asked FFG for a clarification and then posted the answer on a forum.  For inexplicable reasons, he was then attacked and called 'dense' with several other comments implying he was somehow a lesser person for needing to ask a question. 

Well done, internet.  You never fail to disappoint.

To the OP...  I appreciate you posting your question and answer.  I judge occasional events and it's good to see some of the obscure situations that could come up and don't have a grammatical black and white answer.

[KrisWall 966]

1 minute ago, Stone37 said:

NO!  Another is the proper and correct word.  "Another" ALWAYS means being one more in addition to.  The player has ALREADY discarded a card.  Ventress forces the player to discard another card (one in addition to).  Not a "different card", not "an additional" card... another card (one in addition to).  "Different" and "Additional" also have their own unique meanings.  They are words that are close to, but not the same as "another".

 

With respect, you are wrong.  'Another' can mean a different thing OR an additional thing.  It does NOT always mean 'being one more in addition to'.

 

an·oth·er

əˈnəT͟Hər/

determiner & pronoun

determiner: another; pronoun: another

1. 1.

   used to refer to an additional person or thing of the same type as one already mentioned or known about; one more; a further.

   "have another drink"

   synonyms:

   one more, a further, an additional "have another drink"

   • used with a proper name to indicate someone or something's similarity to the person or event specified.

     "they said she was another Jennifer Aniston"
2. 2.

   used to refer to a different person or thing from one already mentioned or known about.

   "come back another day"

[WonderWAAAGH 7,153]

2 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

This isn't a discussion of whether or not a rules interpretation is good or bad.  It's a discussion of ambiguity in rules text.  The OP found an ambiguity, asked FFG for a clarification and then posted the answer on a forum.  For inexplicable reasons, he was then attacked and called 'dense' with several other comments implying he was somehow a lesser person for needing to ask a question. 

Well done, internet.  You never fail to disappoint.

To the OP...  I appreciate you posting your question and answer.  I judge occasional events and it's good to see some of the obscure situations that could come up and don't have a grammatical black and white answer.

But it is... the language portion becomes completely moot once you start thinking about how those other interpretations play out. 

[Vrock 4]

1 minute ago, Stone37 said:

 "Another" ALWAYS means being one more in addition to. 

Not true.  "Another" has three separate meanings in the English language.  http://www.dictionary.com/browse/another?s=t

The first, and most generally used, is "in addition to"..."I want another scoop of ice cream"

The second is "different"..."I don't like that shirt, pick another one"

[Stu35 723]

21 hours ago, Abyss said:

Pretty sure it's a point of confusion in the sense of 'I don't want to have to discard another card, clearly the ability doesn't work that way'.

Ah the good old 'i will rules lawyer this until i win' approach. I hate those guys.

[Stone37 3,353]

Just now, KrisWall said:

 

With respect, you are wrong.  'Another' can mean a different thing OR an additional thing.  It does NOT always mean 'being one more in addition to'.

 

an·oth·er

əˈnəT͟Hər/

determiner & pronoun

determiner: another; pronoun: another

1. 1.

   used to refer to an additional person or thing of the same type as one already mentioned or known about; one more; a further.

   "have another drink"

   synonyms:

   one more, a further, an additional "have another drink"

   • used with a proper name to indicate someone or something's similarity to the person or event specified.

     "they said she was another Jennifer Aniston"
2. 2.

   used to refer to a different person or thing from one already mentioned or known about.

   "come back another day"

You should re-read what you just posted... the entire 2nd definition... not just the part you like.

[KrisWall 966]

Just now, WonderWAAAGH said:

But it is... the language portion becomes completely moot once you start thinking about how those other interpretations play out. 

So, to clarify...  rules text ambiguity is fine?