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Blail Blerg

Is the game actually worse since the Great Nerfing?

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Imperial players are really at a disadvantage right now, but I've got a question for you guys. Do you believe it's better to have one OP ship/upgrade for each faction, or one just for Scum? Which problem is easier to fix?

I mean, there was no reason at all to play anything imperial over x7s before. Now the imperial faction seems much more balanced overall, both internally and externally. Yeah, JumpMasters and Attani Mindlink may be overpowered still, but don't you think that most imperial stuff is somewhat balanced with the rest of scum and rebels? It seems to me that trying to bring some imperial ship or crew card to the level of the JumpMaster (which is MUCH better than any other in the game), just so the "faction" (i.e. one ship or crew) may be called competitive, is not the way to go. 

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that we shouldn't mistake the presence of OP cards in all factions for real balance.
 

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1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:

Perhaps, but they also give us a lot MORE data than system opens and worlds do.

Data with more unknown variables, like skill level, local meta, length of tournament, number of players, etc. Systems and Worlds are meant to bring in the best players, isn't as confined by local preferences, are usually longer, and have a better sample size.

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3 minutes ago, Ladrillito said:

Imperial players are really at a disadvantage right now, but I've got a question for you guys. Do you believe it's better to have one OP ship/upgrade for each faction, or one just for Scum? Which problem is easier to fix?

I mean, there was no reason at all to play anything imperial over x7s before. Now the imperial faction seems much more balanced overall, both internally and externally. Yeah, JumpMasters and Attani Mindlink may be overpowered still, but don't you think that most imperial stuff is somewhat balanced with the rest of scum and rebels? It seems to me that trying to bring some imperial ship or crew card to the level of the JumpMaster (which is MUCH better than any other in the game), just so the "faction" (i.e. one ship or crew) may be called competitive, is not the way to go. 

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that we shouldn't mistake the presence of OP cards in all factions for real balance.
 

I guess it comes down to timing for me. The Empire got its "OP" cards dealt with, but Rebels and Scum still have most if not all of theirs. So, Imps have to suffer reduced standings while Rebels and Scum get to enjoy their "OP" cards for longer. 

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2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I guess it comes down to timing for me. The Empire got its "OP" cards dealt with, but Rebels and Scum still have most if not all of theirs. So, Imps have to suffer reduced standings while Rebels and Scum get to enjoy their "OP" cards for longer. 

I feel you, it's truly unfortunate.

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A single tournament, worlds or not, is not indicative of the state of Imperials given recent circumstances.

 

The lag between the release and exploitation of many ships/cards (k-wings, mindlink, Tie S/F....) shows that changes to the game take time to infiltrate the player base. The people taking lists to worlds - in particular, those capable of gunning for the top spots - are concerned only with their own performance. These are the players that play a list 200 times to get experience with it. Having spoken to some, their plans were disrupted by the changes, and it is far easier to migrate to another familiar power list than it is to create a new one. I would argue that the timing of the nerf severely impacted imperial representation, as many players felt no need to risk playing now untested ships and strategies.

 

So again, I think it is incorrect to start from the conclusion that worlds proved Imperials insufficient. I don't disagree that numerically they were underrepresented at the top, I simply think there are external reasons for that and top 16 is in a single tournament is an extremely small sample size to begin with. They are currently in the same boat as Rebels - having to build to beat the top of the meta rather than being the top of the meta.

 

I'd argue that world's data far more clearly highlights the issues with certain scum ship designs introducing power creep. The jumpmaster is masking the severe underpricing of Fenn - who has supplanted every imperial ace as the top dog and is currently warping the meta around himself.

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Just now, SabineKey said:

Data with more unknown variables, like skill level, local meta, length of tournament, number of players, etc. Systems and Worlds are meant to bring in the best players, isn't as confined by local preferences, are usually longer, and have a better sample size.

More unknown variables, but again, way more data than you get at the big events.  For number of players, you can at least mitigate out the smallest ones by limiting to events with a cut (which is what I looked at.  Didn't look at the results for the smaller swiss only events).  At the big events, you're limited to the people who either live locally or are able to travel to go to them.  And while I'd agree that a single or small number of imperials doing well at store championships is more likely to be local variance, if they continue to do well across the store championship season, that's much more indicative of some actual meta use compared to simply local results.

Even big events can be afffected by local preference.  Look at the prevalence of brobots in the UK a year or two ago when they were far less used competitively in the US.  Worlds is less subject to that than other big events like system opens or nationals, but even there it's probably a factor since I'd imagine there's vastly more players at worlds from the US than there are from elsewhere in the world.

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1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:

More unknown variables, but again, way more data than you get at the big events.  For number of players, you can at least mitigate out the smallest ones by limiting to events with a cut (which is what I looked at.  Didn't look at the results for the smaller swiss only events).  At the big events, you're limited to the people who either live locally or are able to travel to go to them.  And while I'd agree that a single or small number of imperials doing well at store championships is more likely to be local variance, if they continue to do well across the store championship season, that's much more indicative of some actual meta use compared to simply local results.

Even big events can be afffected by local preference.  Look at the prevalence of brobots in the UK a year or two ago when they were far less used competitively in the US.  Worlds is less subject to that than other big events like system opens or nationals, but even there it's probably a factor since I'd imagine there's vastly more players at worlds from the US than there are from elsewhere in the world.

Data that has more varience, which is undesireable for data collection. Again, Store Champ data isn't useless, but saying that 4 or 5 of them is better than 4 bigger events with less varience is a little ridiculous. Even doubling the amount of Store champs doesn't change the varience problem.

I covered that local preference could effect big events, but less than Store Champs. 

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Just now, SabineKey said:

Data that has more varience, which is undesireable for data collection. Again, Store Champ data isn't useless, but saying that 4 or 5 of them is better than 4 bigger events with less varience is a little ridiculous. Even doubling the amount of Store champs doesn't change the varience problem.

I covered that local preference could effect big events, but less than Store Champs. 

More data with more variance is better than less data with less variance.  If you're looking for accurate data controlling variables isn't enough, you ALSO need a large sample size.  4 tournaments, even major ones, is not a large sample size.  Dozens of store championships IS a large sample size, even if it does have more variance to it.

And I didn't say 4-5 store championships was better.  But I looked at 10 the other day, and while doubling it may not mean a ton at those numbers, there's far more to come still. Which is why I said if imperials continue to show up in good numbers in the cuts at store champs it's a good indication.

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I definitely think this game/online community is probably just missing the Store Championship season. Store Champ season seems to be the time when a large # of not-as-common lists see success. Then players mimic these lists and find more success or make little innovations and try them out in a meaningful way.

Non-stop large tournament play has really hindered this. If players drive a long distance to a tournament and want to do well, they seem more likely to stick with a "meta" list or known good combination, I assume since they dont want to waste time and money.

Every year it just seems the playerbase & meta gets a refresh after Store Champs. General happiness and love for the game increases too!

Lets just wait a bit and see if that still is the case!

(Well nerf JM5Ks some more first. I swear, 80% or more of my losses in 2016 were to JM5K lists.)

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On 5/23/2017 at 0:33 PM, Darth Meanie said:

For me, the game is emotionally dead. . .I bought it to play Star Wars as a space ship-based miniatures game.  I bought in for the excitement of playing in a universe I have loved since I was a kid.  Five years and 11 waves in there is still no Yoda, Obi-Wan, Darth Maul, Prequel ships, campaigns, Blue Squadron X-Wings, and a whole lot of other things that would make me excited to play this game even if it was not perfectly balanced.

I agree whole heartedly with you. It's almost as if FFG is waiting for an X-Wing 2.0 release to unleash these ideas. Really, 5 years in and there still isn't a Yoda crew card of some type. I'd argue that besides Darth Vader, he's the most iconic character of the entire Star Wars universe.

Edited by Darth Onyx

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21 minutes ago, Darth Onyx said:

I agree whole heartedly with you. It's almost as if FFG is waiting for an X-Wing 2.0 release to unleash these ideas. Really, 5 years in and there still isn't a Yoda crew card of some type. I'd argue that besides Darth Vader, he's the most iconic character of the entire Star Wars universe.

I'm not overly surprised by the lack of Yoda since we don't have prequel ships.  In the OT, we never see him step foot on a ship, so there's nowhere convenient to put him.

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45 minutes ago, Darth Onyx said:

I agree whole heartedly with you. It's almost as if FFG is waiting for an X-Wing 2.0 release to unleash these ideas. Really, 5 years in and there still isn't a Yoda crew card of some type. I'd argue that besides Darth Vader, he's the most iconic character of the entire Star Wars universe.

Still no Kenobi card either and we have seen him in space.

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25 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

I'm not overly surprised by the lack of Yoda since we don't have prequel ships.  In the OT, we never see him step foot on a ship, so there's nowhere convenient to put him.

I understand that, but on the other hand, although I'm only versed in Star Wars lore from the movies and about five or six books over the years, Jabba only set foot on his barge. Now, soon to be (actually, probably 6 months from now, lol) he's going to be a Skum faction crew member.

However, I'm not a game designer nor a game marketer, but I would not be surprised one bit if Yoda, Obi-Wan, or Darth Maul show up in a reboot or revitalization of the game somehow. Don't get me wrong. I love this game, but I've kind of lost that nostalgic feeling from when I first played this game of Luke vs. Vadar.

Edited by Darth Onyx

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1 minute ago, Darth Onyx said:

I understand that, but on the other hand, although I'm only versed in Star Wars lore from the movies and about five or six books over the years, Jabba only set foot on his barge. Now, soon to be (actually, probably 6 months from now, lol) he's going to be a Skum faction crew member.

Valid point

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9 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Valid point

...and actually we're both wrong on this point because Jabba the Hutt probably never actually set foot on his barge. More like slithered and placed his tail. Lol

Edited by Darth Onyx

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18 minutes ago, Darth Onyx said:

I understand that, but on the other hand, although I'm only versed in Star Wars lore from the movies and about five or six books over the years, Jabba only set foot on his barge. Now, soon to be (actually, probably 6 months from now, lol) he's going to be a Skum faction crew member.

However, I'm not a game designer nor a game marketer, but I would not be surprised one bit if Yoda, Obi-Wan, or Darth Maul show up in a reboot or revitalization of the game somehow. Don't get me wrong. I love this game, but I've kind of lost that nostalgic feeling from when I first played this game of Luke vs. Vadar.

Maul will most likely show up based on his Rebels (he's one of the very few recurring Rebels character with no card, alongside Hondo, Thrawn, Konstantine and the governor of Lothal) appearance and I heard some rumours Nand Torfs would like to do an Obi-Wan card for his worlds prize.

Edited by LordBlades

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13 hours ago, Ladrillito said:

Imperial players are really at a disadvantage right now, but I've got a question for you guys. Do you believe it's better to have one OP ship/upgrade for each faction, or one just for Scum? Which problem is easier to fix?

I mean, there was no reason at all to play anything imperial over x7s before. Now the imperial faction seems much more balanced overall, both internally and externally. Yeah, JumpMasters and Attani Mindlink may be overpowered still, but don't you think that most imperial stuff is somewhat balanced with the rest of scum and rebels? It seems to me that trying to bring some imperial ship or crew card to the level of the JumpMaster (which is MUCH better than any other in the game), just so the "faction" (i.e. one ship or crew) may be called competitive, is not the way to go. 

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that we shouldn't mistake the presence of OP cards in all factions for real balance.
 

Nerf the Jumpmaster down. Its leagues above everything else.  And thats after FOUR nerfs.  AND the public being tired of it.  

--

Said with more nuance:  Actually it might be good to revert some previous changes and go for an overall fix.  Ex. like unnerf Manaroo, but increase all Jumps by 3 points.   Deadeye on large ships might be just a pita anyway.  But that would be the next to unnerf if needed.  

All that said: Large ships are once again showing their over value, with returns of Ghosts and Dash and RAC.  
Some sort of slight-tiny large ship nerf (actually atm, they show up in good number, but Ghosts are a pita)
Nerf attanni, doesnt assign focuses to stressed ships
Watch: Sabine, Biggs and TLT.  
 

Edited by Blail Blerg
qualifications

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18 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Nerf the Jumpmaster down. Its leagues above everything else.  And thats after FOUR nerfs.  AND the public being tired of it.  

--

Said with more nuance:  Actually it might be good to revert some previous changes and go for an overall fix.  Ex. like unnerf Manaroo, but increase all Jumps by 3 points.   Deadeye on large ships might be just a pita anyway.  But that would be the next to unnerf if needed.  

All that said: Large ships are once again showing their over value, with returns of Ghosts and Dash and RAC.  
Some sort of slight-tiny large ship nerf (actually atm, they show up in good number, but Ghosts are a pita)
Nerf attanni, doesnt assign focuses to stressed ships
Watch: Sabine, Biggs and TLT.  
 

Don't unnerf manaroo.  She needed the nerf regardless of what else they do to the platform.  She shouldn't be passing tokens from the opposite side of the board.  If they were to do anything, I wouldn't want to see more than increasing the range limit to range 2, possibly even range 3.  But no rangeless passing.

Making attanni not pass focus while stressed (while it still passes stress tokens) kills the card.  

And sabine shouldn't be a watch.  Either sabine, advanced slam, or the k-wing need SOME form of nerf.  I don't know what, but slamming sabine-backed bombs are a problem.  Non-slamming sabine bombs woulnd't be so bad, and non-sabine advanced-slam bombs ren't so bad, but when you can bomb anything within ~range 3 in front of you and do a guaranteed extra damage...

Edited by VanderLegion

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Maybe they should have been doing only change with x7 tittle, rather than doing Palpatine also. Manaroo is alright, especially when we have Mindlink. Although not sure if Palpatine Is that bad at the moment even, or people just got nerfed and hurt and now there is mental block to play with it. 

Deadeye+R4, maybe good thing, Scumobviously can do without it too. 

Was there anything else? Biggs maybe might need teeny tiny nerf.

Would mindlink be awful if you could get more than one stress, maybe limit it for two..:ph34r:

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1 minute ago, Zazaa said:

Maybe they should have been doing only change with x7 tittle, rather than doing Palpatine also. Manaroo is alright, especially when we have Mindlink. Although not sure if Palpatine Is that bad at the moment even, or people just got nerfed and hurt and now there is mental block to play with it. 

Palp is fine.  he made top 16 at worlds, and has seen a bit of use in store champs so far.  I imagine he'll slowly make his way back into the meta.  It only took whisper like a year to start showing back up regularly after the decloak nerf...

1 minute ago, Zazaa said:

Deadeye+R4, maybe good thing, Scumobviously can do without it too. 

Was there anything else? Biggs maybe might need teeny tiny nerf.

Would mindlink be awful if you could get more than one stress, maybe limit it for two..:ph34r:

that's...actually not terrible.  I'd prefer that to not passing focus tokens while stressed.  Though if you allow stress to stack further, should focus tokens also?

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5 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Don't unnerf manaroo.  She needed the nerf regardless of what else they do to the platform.  She shouldn't be passing tokens from the opposite side of the board.  If they were to do anything, I wouldn't want to see more than increasing the range limit to range 2, possibly even range 3.  But no rangeless passing.

Making attanni not pass focus while stressed (while it still passes stress tokens) kills the card.  

And sabine shouldn't be a watch.  Either sabine, advanced slam, or the k-wing need SOME form of nerf.  I don't know what, but slamming sabine-backed bombs are a problem.  Non-slamming sabine bombs woulnd't be so bad, and non-sabine advanced-slam bombs ren't so bad, but when you can bomb anything within ~range 3 in front of you and do a guaranteed extra damage...

I can agree with that.  I was soft-pedalling cuz people don't wanna hear it.  But actually, those are closer to my real thoughts.  

That said.... as an Ace player myself, there NEEDS to be some effective Ace counter.  Dominance by Palp Aces is ALSO not a fun game. 

--

Continued reflection: 

There needs to be soft counter options, cards good against Large ships.  Ive said this since wave4.  Its been ignored.  2shipTurretWing only ended after TLT and the points nerf.  But really the only moderately effective card vs large ships was TLT.  And this only because of low agility.  it is NOT even a soft counter to Jumps.  NOT EVEN SOFT. 

Edited by Blail Blerg

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Just now, Blail Blerg said:

I can agree with that.  I was soft-pedalling cuz people don't wanna hear it.  But actually, those are closer to my real thoughts.  

That said.... as an Ace player myself, there NEEDS to be some effective Ace counter.  Dominance by Palp Aces is ALSO not a fun game. 

There's SO many ace counters available now-a-days.  I don't think bombs should be entirely useless, just...reigned in a bit.  Without advanced slam + sabine I think they'd be fine.

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5 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Palp is fine.  he made top 16 at worlds, and has seen a bit of use in store champs so far.  I imagine he'll slowly make his way back into the meta.  It only took whisper like a year to start showing back up regularly after the decloak nerf...

that's...actually not terrible.  I'd prefer that to not passing focus tokens while stressed.  Though if you allow stress to stack further, should focus tokens also?

I don't think that with 1p EPT there should be stacking of focus, that might just be enough to keep it still in game, but restrict some action economy.

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