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Any one want to speculate how character death will be dealt with in the story for core set characters?  If the core will be playable for the entire run of the game,  does that mean the champions and named characters released in the core will be popping up in decks after they died in story (or never killed off)? I know mechanically this is irrelevant, but when these characters are the key figures that win a "world championship" after the character is dead in the story,  seems like it thematically could cause problems.  I'm only planning on being a casual player anyway, so in my head I'll come up with my own answers  (reincarnation,  "soul of" character named after an ancestor, etc). Has this been mentioned elsewhere?  Am I simply over thinking it? 

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I also think they mentioned that in the game we aren't playing current time lines per sey, more we are seeing the various characters in a snapshot of their life etc. 

So if they win a tournament after their death it's kinda of a 'this is how this would have gone if they were still alive.

I believe that's how it is anyway, based on the wording used in the live stream, tho I may be misremembering/interpreting it

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1 hour ago, Toqtamish said:

Game trumps fluff

Normally that's true, except L5R is a game of fluff and story. Taking away the story from l5r is like taking away Jedi and star destroyers from Star Wars, it doesn't work and leaves an empty shell of a product.

many people played the old l5r no matter how broken and disfigured it got, because of their love for the story. Ffg will have a bigger problem than gameplay if they ignore the story and fluff of the cards.

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6 minutes ago, sideshowgames1221 said:

Normally that's true, except L5R is a game of fluff and story. Taking away the story from l5r is like taking away Jedi and star destroyers from Star Wars, it doesn't work and leaves an empty shell of a product.

many people played the old l5r no matter how broken and disfigured it got, because of their love for the story. Ffg will have a bigger problem than gameplay if they ignore the story and fluff of the cards.

In Star Wars Destiny you can have Darth Vader against Rei. This is a more accurate comparison with the fact that you will be able to play Clan Champions a long time after they are dead in the fictions then the "removing the Jedi" bit.

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10 minutes ago, sideshowgames1221 said:

Normally that's true, except L5R is a game of fluff and story. Taking away the story from l5r is like taking away Jedi and star destroyers from Star Wars, it doesn't work and leaves an empty shell of a product.

many people played the old l5r no matter how broken and disfigured it got, because of their love for the story. Ffg will have a bigger problem than gameplay if they ignore the story and fluff of the cards.

And despite this, in the CCG, there were a lot of characters that were playable and played in decks although they were dead in the story, sometimes for more than a thousand years. It was not a problem then, it won't be now.

Edited by KerenRhys

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I see it as if a dead character is in your dead you can interpret it a couple of ways. 1 this story you are playing out is taking place across a long time line where that character was still alive till after they died. 2 the dead characters card is less them and more the influence of them even after death be it their philosophy, teachings, ECT. 3 treat it like non uniques in old5r the dead character is now just representing the archetype of who they where. 

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Timeskips (if they occur) will be much harder to explain than character death IMHO. Like people said, many characters died and where still playable at least until then end of the arc. After a timeskip, however, it would be weird to have Clan Champions running around who were replaced by their descendants at least a generation ago.

 

The easy solution would be to reprint the base set with new characters but the same mechanics, keep the same art and add Soul of ... as Trait, meaning they are treated as the same card for deckbuilding.

 

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I am pretty much fine with the cards in the core set outliving their story counterparts but I do also think it's a good opportunity for them to do alternate art promos down the line that use the "soul of" concept that we had in old5r. Reprint one of the named cards with an identical card, mechanically, but with a new character. I just think it would be a really nice option to give players down the line because it would provide some diversity. Like maybe 5 years from now I'll just be tired of looking at my dead clan champions face for a little while.

Edited by MoZi

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51 minutes ago, sideshowgames1221 said:

Normally that's true, except L5R is a game of fluff and story. Taking away the story from l5r is like taking away Jedi and star destroyers from Star Wars, it doesn't work and leaves an empty shell of a product.

many people played the old l5r no matter how broken and disfigured it got, because of their love for the story. Ffg will have a bigger problem than gameplay if they ignore the story and fluff of the cards.

The Kami were playable in the CCG. 

 

It won't be an issue. 

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3 hours ago, KnightofSquires said:

I also think they mentioned that in the game we aren't playing current time lines per sey, more we are seeing the various characters in a snapshot of their life etc. 

So if they win a tournament after their death it's kinda of a 'this is how this would have gone if they were still alive.

Which, to be fair and to latch onto what Toqtamish pointed out, is exactly how AGoT matches ought to be viewed. And why do we see Ned and Tywin joining their houses together so often? Well, if a certain *someone* hadn't pitted them against each other, it just might have happened; and so both games give us a chance to explore this and other "What if?" scenarios.

Edited by Ide Yoshiya

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1 hour ago, Tetsuhiko said:

Timeskips (if they occur) will be much harder to explain than character death IMHO. Like people said, many characters died and where still playable at least until then end of the arc. After a timeskip, however, it would be weird to have Clan Champions running around who were replaced by their descendants at least a generation ago.

 

An excellent point. At the same time, however, we need to look at what the game itself represents, timeline-wise. I do not feel it's accurate to say the events depicted in a game of L5R necessarily occur, necessarily could occur, in the span of a single generation. We're seeing clans crushed militarily, dishonored to the point of being stricken from the Imperial Histories, becoming so honorable and influential as to become the de facto rulers of the Empire, and so forth, whilst in the story we are going to be seeing these same seven clans for the foreseeable future. If a Core Set unique shows up later on in the game, it could be that they are older than their card makes them appear, or the game actually started at a time before that of the official story, c. 1116.

Incidentally, this is why I feel the fate system is so on point as a flavorful design choice.

Edited by Ide Yoshiya

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6 hours ago, Toqtamish said:

The Kami were playable in the CCG. 

 

It won't be an issue. 

Playable in the CCG yes, but in storyline tournaments (except for the very occasional Legacy tournament), no. They were never legal for play in any of the standard tournament formats. 

That said, in a culture where ancestors guide and influence the living, it's not exactly hard to justify dead people impacting the result of storyline tournament.

"Oh, Matsu Tsuko was in your winning deck despite being dead? Well, clearly the peopel who went and actually did the fighting received guidance from Tsuko."

Edited by Himoto

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I think that FFG purposly gave themselves some breathing room on this by making so many characters with generic titles.  It's safe to assume that the Lion will lose their fair share of Matsu Beserkers during various conflicts or that the Dragon will have various characters progressing down their path towards enlightenment and will need a new crop of Seekers of Enlightenment to teach, etc.

FFG also has said they will have more control over the story so I would be surprised if there are any unique characters killed off anytime soon.  I would expect more story rewards to be additions to the game as opposed to subtractions.  For example, the gen con winner could decide which clan gets wins the Emerald Championship so as soon as the first expansion goes to print, the flavor is added into the card game include those results. For all we know the first few expansions of cards could be finished and will only need slight flavor tweets before going to print.

If this version of L5R gets to the point where we are having serious discussions about story vs game inconsistencies or debating the greatest Crane duelists from the past 12 expansions and 3rd core set reprint.....the game was likely a success and everyone is a winner it that happens.

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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10 hours ago, KnightofSquires said:

I also think they mentioned that in the game we aren't playing current time lines per sey, more we are seeing the various characters in a snapshot of their life etc. 

So if they win a tournament after their death it's kinda of a 'this is how this would have gone if they were still alive.

I believe that's how it is anyway, based on the wording used in the live stream, tho I may be misremembering/interpreting it

That is exactly it. The answered the OP's exact question in the Facebook Livestream. The games players play are sort of "what if" situations. All the cards are a snapshot of a particular time in the story. That's also how we'll likely be able to get multiple versions of the same character in your deck, represented by different cards that reflect them at different times in their life. 

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3 hours ago, Himoto said:

Playable in the CCG yes, but in storyline tournaments (except for the very occasional Legacy tournament), no. They were never legal for play in any of the standard tournament formats. 

That said, in a culture where ancestors guide and influence the living, it's not exactly hard to justify dead people impacting the result of storyline tournament.

"Oh, Matsu Tsuko was in your winning deck despite being dead? Well, clearly the peopel who went and actually did the fighting received guidance from Tsuko."

I...LOVE this!

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I don't think character death ever caused a problem in the CCG, so I don't think it'll be a problem in the LCG either.

While the kami cards from Dawn of the Empire weren't legal for the main story line events of the day, people like Kakita and Isawa were legal in the Diamond and Lotus environments. IIRC Kakita was also so widely used (and good) that they had to errata his ability.

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14 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

And maybe it's just being a Phoenix player, but I'm more than accustomed to having the same Clan Champ for around a decade...

I had never noticed that before.  In the entire length of the original game, Phoenix had a grand total of 4 champions.  For almost the entire game, their champion was either Shiba Tsukune or Shiba Tsukimi.

For comparison (just doing the 7 clans that made it to the LCG):

Dragon had 6
Crane had 6
Crab had 5 : Keeping in mind that two of them were named Hida Kisada, but those two were distinctly different people several generations apart.
Lion had 8 - 9 :  Depending on if you count Tamago or not.  He was technically printed with the Clan Champion trait.  Lots of turnover in the Lion Clan.
Scorpion had 5
Unicorn had 5

 

Edited by Yogo Gohei

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While story and "fluff" is far more important to L5R than any other game that I've ever played (or that, I believe, even exists), I just can't imagine any way to make characters from the core set illegal once they die in the story.

 

Especially since the core set is evergreen. So, unless they make a new list for dead characters, similar to a banned or restricted list, that are illegal at tournaments, I would think the game will trump the story.

 

Removing cards from playability is very difficult in this game format. Cycles are much slower than in CCGs and, as a result, cards will persist in the game much longer than they do in the story.

 

I do remember, in Ivory edition, they used "soul of ___" as a way of kind of...reprinting characters that players knew. So, that may be an argument for why characters persist past their deaths in the game.

Edited by Joe From Cincinnati

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In the CCG, there was a character that died in their own flavor text.  I cannot recall who it was.

I am also pretty sure that there was a character being killed in their own art, but I am not 100% on that.

Edited by Yogo Gohei

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39 minutes ago, Yogo Gohei said:

In the CCG, there was a character that died in their own flavor text.  I cannot recall who it was.

I am also pretty sure that there was a character being killed in their own art, but I am not 100% on that.

Was it the exploding Phoenix shugenja?  Whotisname - Hosigeru?

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18 hours ago, Himoto said:

"Oh, Matsu Tsuko was in your winning deck despite being dead? Well, clearly the peopel who went and actually did the fighting received guidance from Tsuko."



Here's how AEG would have handled it in their latter years:

"Matsu Tsuko's spirit was reincarnated after passing through a gate from the Spirit Realms to Rokugan.  She was allowed this honor because the secret society of Kolat spirits known as The Order of the Rosey Petal who mastered Maho mysticism and had been guarding the gate were impressed with the efforts of the Lion Clan and sent Tsuko back to convince the Lion to seek out a powerful artifact to return to the Spirit Realm so that the Kolat Spirits could triumph over the Goju spirits.  Because a Dragon player conceded to the Lion in the finals, the powerful Dragon spirit of Togashi Yokuni gave Tsuko a mystical set of magic tattoos before she departed for the mortal realm to help her fulfill her second destiny."

Matsu Tsuko Exp 5 * Celestial * Kolat * Exemplar of the Order of the Rosey Petal * Spirit * Bloodspeaker * Tattooed
Lose 5 Honor. 
You may pay two less gold when bringing Togashi family monks into play.
Lion Clan saumrai and bushi personalities you control gain Kolat.
Lion Clan shugenja and monk personalities you control gain Bloodspeaker.
Maho Open: Bow to permanently give target personality without Tattooed +2/+2 and the Tattooed trait.

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