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Blail Blerg

How much does the quasar and Sloan help anti squadron?

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10 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

If you don't wanna go heavy anti squad and don't want to play bombers fan you build lists with good AA from these?  

How useful is the red die AA. With Kallus? 

Well a 6 squad alpha strike composed of defenders or Howl/Dengar/4 Interceptors I think it does a lot. It frees up your other ships to focus on being combat rather than support vessels, and can offer a decent defense. Furthermore, the red die is really nice in theory to whittle down the incoming enemy fighters, to prvide kallus shots for another turn, or even to use Ruthless strategists from earlier.

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53 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

I'm looking at FC/EHB/RS on a QF2, pushing Howl, 4 Interceptors, and Mauler. That's 2 major unstoppable AOE damage on top of the sextuple Howl alpha.

Stop talking gibberish, man!! FC/EHB/RS?? Translate please. By the Emperor, I hate acronyms. Too much time in the Army.......

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Hmm... Flight Controllers, Expanded Hangar Bays, Ruthless Strategists?

Ruthless Strategists is kind of a risky play when leaning on hull 3 fighters. Who out of all that is going to be taking the hits? It was a thought if you have a Rhymerball out there since everyone has 5 hull...

 

The thing about Sloane punching out lists like Rieekan aces is that they can elliminate defense tokens a lot quicker than natural. Sure when you hold an accuracy against a two-brace ace with one exhausted, there is little difference, but against aces with scatter? And what if you have nothing but accuracy on your roll... before if your blue die attack was crit/acc you could do nothing. Sloane opens up another result to use against your opponent.

Moreover her ability on generic TIE Batteries attacking ships actually does something, instead of hanging around praying for one result on the D8 to make them meaningful, while absorbing all the shots from the ship they are attacking...

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Sloane with an ISD-II can command six TIE Fighters to fly to the far side of the ship and start attacking it, praying for Accs to destroy the ship's likely Brace token before the ISD opens fire.

I'd like to try a hammer and anvil strategy of leading in with Stronghold and a mess of fighters and flanking with a couple of ARQs. My TIEs and QF deal with the fighters, exhaust tokens on the target ships, and the ARQs pummel them from range. Save on points by losing the Intel officers and upgrade the DTTs to Enhanced Armament.

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6 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Hmm... Flight Controllers, Expanded Hangar Bays, Ruthless Strategists?

Ruthless Strategists is kind of a risky play when leaning on hull 3 fighters. Who out of all that is going to be taking the hits? It was a thought if you have a Rhymerball out there since everyone has 5 hull...

I'd use it on Tie's against Aces for sure.  Especially Wedge.  his 6 die attack is going to vaporize a 3 hull TIE no matter what, so why not RS it down to a 2 hull tie, and get another point in.

Mainly, it's another consistent source of damage that can't be Biggsed, braced, or whatever.  And for the imps, TIE's aren't that much more expensive per hull than other fighters.

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That's what I thought, I know I'm just more conservative with my fighters. What do you think of Stronghold? I'd feel better knowing I had a little extra insurance like that before deciding to willingly damage my squads. The range limitation may be a deal breaker though.

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Just now, Norsehound said:

That's what I thought, I know I'm just more conservative with my fighters. What do you think of Stronghold? I'd feel better knowing I had a little extra insurance like that before deciding to willingly damage my squads. The range limitation may be a deal breaker though.

It depends on what your plan is.  I'd field stronghold to if my wing is going to hang around the ISD & counter-punch the attacking squads.  But not if I'm planning on trying to jump the other guy's fleet, or the squads around it.  Generic Ties don't really benefit from stronghold, as they still die too fast.  Now, if you're going to go Defender, or any other high-hull fighter, then it becomes worth it.

I'm still trying to find a good mix of fighters & ships for a sloane list.  She will work with the TIE-pocalypse, but I'm worried that she will end up like Sato - take all fighters, and you have no ships to benefit from the stripped defense tokens, but take all ships, and you aren't using your admiral at all.

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I think one of the nice things Sloane does is that simply by existing, it creates a threat to Rieekan Aces that should lower the usage rate across the broader competitive meta.

As far as reducing overall squadron play...I wouldn't hazard a guess until I see whats up with the hammerheads. Oftentimes the ripple effect from releases does wierd things.

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5 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

I think one of the nice things Sloane does is that simply by existing, it creates a threat to Rieekan Aces that should lower the usage rate across the broader competitive meta.

As far as reducing overall squadron play...I wouldn't hazard a guess until I see whats up with the hammerheads. Oftentimes the ripple effect from releases does wierd things.

Sloane I think will actually do both. By existing and threatening Aces the way she does, she'll directly threaten Ace Holes. However, since she relies heavily on low hull squadrons, ship based anti-squad will be a direct threat to her. Neb-B escorts and Gladiator IIs love seeing TIE swarms.

Edited by Truthiness

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55 minutes ago, Gottmituns205 said:

When your 5 tie fighters can basically vaporize probably two aces in a single go...things become a lot cooler.

Unfortunately, 100 TIEs can still only kill one squadron per turn vs Rieekan Aces, due to zombie escorts and biggs shinanagins.

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Have ran Sloane twice in practice games against rebs and imps.

She definitely gives generic ties a great edge against aces. If you have multiple ties hitting the same ace their tokens disappear very quickly. But generic ties still die easily as well.

I don't know that she helps much "if you don't want to go heavy anti squad". If you take say 60 points of ties sure they will make a better impact, but they will still die. I guess there will have gotten an extra kill or two but then you will still be open to getting bombed by everything left.

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3 hours ago, Thraug said:

Unfortunately, 100 TIEs can still only kill one squadron per turn vs Rieekan Aces, due to zombie escorts and biggs shinanagins.

Seriously, this is an awful counterpoint. Why are you jumping your speed-4 and -5 TIEs into **** engagements like that? Sorry, that sounds suspiciously like poor squadron play if you're letting one escort tie up your entire antisquadron force all at once, particularly when you have the speed advantage.

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Really good question.  We'll still have to see what that last upgrade is, and what the rules/stats are for the Hammerheads.  What becomes popular is somewhat a factor of what lists emerge and what counters to those lists emerge.  It might be that hammerheads work in some very specific lists that were not possible before but become possible now.  And there's always the possibility that a commander or ship turns out to be a complete dud.  We've spent a couple of waves seeing the Interdictor get moderately better, and it looks to get some benefit here as well, but it has still been a tough ship to use.  Here are a few thoughts on how Sloan and or the Quasar help against some key archetypes:

 

I see a few effects:

1.  Non-GH Ace lists are under threat.   But in the absence of GH, I've seen plenty of strong Rieekan ace lists crumble against a strong anti-squadron list.  That didn't stop people from playing those lists or from them rising to the top at worlds.  There's still a skill factor that the best squadron players bring, and the presence of the new toys doesn't spell an end to their reign.  I do think it helps even up Imperial play against Rebels.

2.  GH-Ace lists will sweat a bit more under Sloan.  I'd have to see how well the token discarding works in practice.  The biggest key is making sure the fight occurs at some place other than Gallant Haven.  In practice, that's very hard to do, so I'm very skeptical that a GH-Ace style list is fixed with the appearance of Sloan and the Quasar alone.

3.  There's more of a direct threat to flotillas simply because you either scatter a one damage shot, eat that shot as damage, or have your scatter exhausted and possibly discarded for follow-up shots from ships.  So killing flotillas is potentially easier.  The net result here is that we might see more careful thought put into quality of activation over mere quantity, because those sloan squadrons could easily end up cleaning up a bunch of flotillas after their fleet's competitive ships have mopped up the opponent's competitive ships.  Does activation count decrease slightly as the result of the additional threat to flotillas?

4.  There's a more direct threat to squadronless lists.  I don't think you can concede allowing Ties to attack your ships with impunity, exhausting and possibly discarding one of your defense tokens, and that means at least a token force of squadrons.

5.  Lists with primarily anti-squadron will largely be unaffected by sloan.  Think your generic 8xYT2400 here.  No tokens to discard and while the Sloan Ties will deal quite a bit of pain, they are going to take a beating back.  Meanwhile, these kinds of builds tend to show up in lists where the player has several powerful ships capable of eliminating the enemy ships quickly.  So while the Sloan Ties are busy fighting the opposing squadron forces, the opposing key capital ships are blowing up that Quasar.

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1 hour ago, Vergilius said:

Really good question.  We'll still have to see what that last upgrade is, and what the rules/stats are for the Hammerheads.  What becomes popular is somewhat a factor of what lists emerge and what counters to those lists emerge.  It might be that hammerheads work in some very specific lists that were not possible before but become possible now.  And there's always the possibility that a commander or ship turns out to be a complete dud.  We've spent a couple of waves seeing the Interdictor get moderately better, and it looks to get some benefit here as well, but it has still been a tough ship to use.  Here are a few thoughts on how Sloan and or the Quasar help against some key archetypes:

 

I see a few effects:

1.  Non-GH Ace lists are under threat.   But in the absence of GH, I've seen plenty of strong Rieekan ace lists crumble against a strong anti-squadron list.  That didn't stop people from playing those lists or from them rising to the top at worlds.  There's still a skill factor that the best squadron players bring, and the presence of the new toys doesn't spell an end to their reign.  I do think it helps even up Imperial play against Rebels.

2.  GH-Ace lists will sweat a bit more under Sloan.  I'd have to see how well the token discarding works in practice.  The biggest key is making sure the fight occurs at some place other than Gallant Haven.  In practice, that's very hard to do, so I'm very skeptical that a GH-Ace style list is fixed with the appearance of Sloan and the Quasar alone.

3.  There's more of a direct threat to flotillas simply because you either scatter a one damage shot, eat that shot as damage, or have your scatter exhausted and possibly discarded for follow-up shots from ships.  So killing flotillas is potentially easier.  The net result here is that we might see more careful thought put into quality of activation over mere quantity, because those sloan squadrons could easily end up cleaning up a bunch of flotillas after their fleet's competitive ships have mopped up the opponent's competitive ships.  Does activation count decrease slightly as the result of the additional threat to flotillas?

4.  There's a more direct threat to squadronless lists.  I don't think you can concede allowing Ties to attack your ships with impunity, exhausting and possibly discarding one of your defense tokens, and that means at least a token force of squadrons.

5.  Lists with primarily anti-squadron will largely be unaffected by sloan.  Think your generic 8xYT2400 here.  No tokens to discard and while the Sloan Ties will deal quite a bit of pain, they are going to take a beating back.  Meanwhile, these kinds of builds tend to show up in lists where the player has several powerful ships capable of eliminating the enemy ships quickly.  So while the Sloan Ties are busy fighting the opposing squadron forces, the opposing key capital ships are blowing up that Quasar.

As usual, I find myself agreeing with pretty much everything you say. But as to point 2, GH-ace lists- I think the Quasar could wind up harming them in the following ways;

1. The QF2 with ruthless strats from long range is another source of autodamage, which gets around Haven's pally bubble. Not much on its own but combined with some other sources of imperial autodamage it could create an issue. 

2. The Squall title combined with scoring tokens and lambda's can allow the imps to play some of the objective games the rebels have been, and this could be an effective method of dictating the location of the battle in manner that prys the fighters loose from GH.

3. Stonghold can create a similar though more limited bubble which may also help to limit the efficacy of rieekan fighter lists. 

Mostly I think Squall/Lambdas could wind up being very problematic, but the other two are also worth keeping an eye on.

 

Edited by Madaghmire

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Thanks for the comments.

Squall/Lambda also strikes me as creating some traps on key objectives.  I've been experimenting with some specific Rebel Trap builds lately, but there's nothing about my list concepts that require Rebels, so some Imperial form of the list must be possible.

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23 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

Seriously, this is an awful counterpoint. Why are you jumping your speed-4 and -5 TIEs into **** engagements like that? Sorry, that sounds suspiciously like poor squadron play if you're letting one escort tie up your entire antisquadron force all at once, particularly when you have the speed advantage.

This was a better argument before Fighter Coordination Teams made X-Wings effectively Speed 5.

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1) Throwing red AA with Kallus means you can throw red black, that seems pretty useful to me, moreso than the Quasars battery, certainly./

2) Sloane will help AA for a few reasons - scatter aces will crash hard.  If you spend an accuracy to spend their scatter, they cannot scatter that attack (defense tokens can only be spent once during an attack). 

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