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Embir82

Unfortunately it is X-Wing marketing strategy afterall

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Ok.
So despite my concerns and some warning posts on the forum I decided to dive in into this game - my gaming buddy finally convinced me to give this game a a try.
Unfortunately I am afraid my concerns about possible X-Wing marketing strategy where you have to buy all factions to have necessary cards were justified. From what I see incoming expansions for Runewars got cards that are usable by all factions. It means marketing model of X-Wing is preserved despite some claims that some FFG's representative was saying otherwise.
Also I carefully read preview of Oathsworn cavalry and, to quote:
"The Oathsworn Cavalry Unit Expansion also comes with five new upgrade cards that can be used with any army. These upgrade cards not only allow you to put up more of a defensive front, but allow other units in your army to strike with the speed and ferocity of the Cavalry themselves." They specifically say that other armies can use those upgrades - and why? My safe bet is because they want people collecting other armies to buy this box.
So it seems that for FFG it is not enough to earn by selling models, they need much more by artificially raising value of "PAPER CARDS". And this way perfect blend of MtG and customizable tabletop wargame designed for milking consumers will emerge.

It probably means I will end my adventure with this game pretty soon. I can accept marketing model like this in X-Wing, where you can fairly easily use ships from other factions and make fully playable list with them, but not in a game like this.

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If you aren't playing competitively, the upgrade cards don't matter.

If you are, FFG has said that the neutral upgrades will be available in packs for each faction. From what we've seen  so far in previews this appears to be the case 

While they are releasing product there may be some cards that are available to one faction earlier than others but it seems like once all the announced product has been released the factions will have access to all the same neutral cards.

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That's a very reactionary, and thus far tacitly false, title. This conversation has occurred a number of times already, and although there's no knowing what the future will hold, at this point every indication is that every upgrade an army can use will be available in one of that faction's expansions. 

Now, maybe you want Column Tactics and Piercing Strike for your Oathsworn Cavalry, but absolutely never want to use Heavy Crossbowmen. In that case you ARE still paying for models you don't mean to use just to get access to the upgrade cards, but at least they're in faction.

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Don't sweat. I just bought both command packs. Fortuna's dice and File Leader are in both. Of the 3 other unique cards in each pack, we've already seen Shield Wall in the core set, so I wouldn't worry about them not showing up in the "opposing" armies' next expansions.

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7 hours ago, Embir82 said:

Ok.
So despite my concerns and some warning posts on the forum I decided to dive in into this game - my gaming buddy finally convinced me to give this game a a try.
Unfortunately I am afraid my concerns about possible X-Wing marketing strategy where you have to buy all factions to have necessary cards were justified. From what I see incoming expansions for Runewars got cards that are usable by all factions. It means marketing model of X-Wing is preserved despite some claims that some FFG's representative was saying otherwise.
Also I carefully read preview of Oathsworn cavalry and, to quote:
"The Oathsworn Cavalry Unit Expansion also comes with five new upgrade cards that can be used with any army. These upgrade cards not only allow you to put up more of a defensive front, but allow other units in your army to strike with the speed and ferocity of the Cavalry themselves." They specifically say that other armies can use those upgrades - and why? My safe bet is because they want people collecting other armies to buy this box.
So it seems that for FFG it is not enough to earn by selling models, they need much more by artificially raising value of "PAPER CARDS". And this way perfect blend of MtG and customizable tabletop wargame designed for milking consumers will emerge.

It probably means I will end my adventure with this game pretty soon. I can accept marketing model like this in X-Wing, where you can fairly easily use ships from other factions and make fully playable list with them, but not in a game like this.

Okay. They can be used in any army. That adds more diversity to the game. However all neutral alligned upgrades will be available to all other factions in their own expansions eventually. Now there is a sort of timed exclusive I admit to it, however it is much better than X-wing or armada in that you have to buy X to get Y even though X is not your faction. Besides I feel like upgrade cards are as powerful as they are in Armada unless it is a faction specific upgrade (Which if you own that faction, your going to get anyways. Like the Daqan Infantry Upgrade box. All the models have really good cards for your faction)

 

I also heard originally expansion boxes were 30$, but they knocked em down to 25$ due to complaints. The only thing I can ask of you is Patience as we see how the game expands/develops with the additional expansions for the current factions and the elves.

Edited by TallGiraffe

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8 hours ago, Embir82 said:

Ok.
So despite my concerns and some warning posts on the forum I decided to dive in into this game - my gaming buddy finally convinced me to give this game a a try.
Unfortunately I am afraid my concerns about possible X-Wing marketing strategy where you have to buy all factions to have necessary cards were justified. From what I see incoming expansions for Runewars got cards that are usable by all factions. It means marketing model of X-Wing is preserved despite some claims that some FFG's representative was saying otherwise.
Also I carefully read preview of Oathsworn cavalry and, to quote:
"The Oathsworn Cavalry Unit Expansion also comes with five new upgrade cards that can be used with any army. These upgrade cards not only allow you to put up more of a defensive front, but allow other units in your army to strike with the speed and ferocity of the Cavalry themselves." They specifically say that other armies can use those upgrades - and why? My safe bet is because they want people collecting other armies to buy this box.
So it seems that for FFG it is not enough to earn by selling models, they need much more by artificially raising value of "PAPER CARDS". And this way perfect blend of MtG and customizable tabletop wargame designed for milking consumers will emerge.

It probably means I will end my adventure with this game pretty soon. I can accept marketing model like this in X-Wing, where you can fairly easily use ships from other factions and make fully playable list with them, but not in a game like this.

Neutral cards in daqan and waiqar infantry command upgrades are the same so far.

I expect and hope that the next expansions also bring the same neutral upgrade cards, but so far there's no reason to distrust them.

Dispatch runner is in OS cavalry and not in R archers, but it's been announced for reanimate expansion pack.

That's why so far I'm not concerned about that, as they seem to have the intention to put all neutral cards in one or another pack of each faction.

Rune wind comes with reanimate archers and golems as well.

I invite you to take a look at runewars wiki and do some research.

Edited by druchii7

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3 hours ago, druchii7 said:

Neutral cards in daqan and waiqar infantry command upgrades are the same so far.

I expect and hope that the next expansions also bring the same neutral upgrade cards, but so far there's no reason to distrust them.

Dispatch runner is in OS cavalry and not in R archers, but it's been announced for reanimate expansion pack.

That's why so far I'm not concerned about that, as they seem to have the intention to put all neutral cards in one or another pack of each faction.

Rune wind comes with reanimate archers and golems as well.

I invite you to take a look at runewars wiki and do some research.

The daqan and waiqar infantry neutrals are not the same.  Triumphant crynin the waiqar is scheduled for daqan release on the spearmem, and the Raven banner is also not in Daqan, but I'm sure we'll see it shortly. Wind rune with archers is with Golems, fire rune with daqan command was in a waiqar preview as well.  They will all cross over, and pretty quickly, but they are still packaged until units where they are actually suitable/optimal.

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Yeah, the only "concerns" right now would be:

1. Different release schedule/timing... Daqan might get a neutral upgrade now but the Waiqar won't see it until some of their expansions come out (probably a couple months).

2. The Hero Expansions include a new piece of terrain and new setup cards (terrain, deployment and objective).  Looks like one new card each and I imagine these will be exclusive to each hero.  These are all setup options so they're not as vital to gameplay as the neutral upgrades are, but I suppose someone who wants every option might be annoyed they have to buy out of their faction to get them.  Or just proxy them for casual games.

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#2 I like.  Extra flavour for the hero.  But I'm likely to get all the heros.  Unless there becomes too many for me to keep up with.

 

i do wonder what the rules will be in set up.  When say there's 20 objective cards out there, what do you bring, all of them? Just the core, and your hero specific?

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15 hours ago, Embir82 said:


Unfortunately I am afraid my concerns about possible X-Wing marketing strategy where you have to buy all factions to have necessary cards were justified. From what I see incoming expansions for Runewars got cards that are usable by all factions. It means marketing model of X-Wing is preserved despite some claims that some FFG's representative was saying otherwise.
Also I carefully read preview of Oathsworn cavalry and, to quote:
"The Oathsworn Cavalry Unit Expansion also comes with five new upgrade cards that can be used with any army. These upgrade cards not only allow you to put up more of a defensive front, but allow other units in your army to strike with the speed and ferocity of the Cavalry themselves." They specifically say that other armies can use those upgrades - and why? My safe bet is because they want people collecting other armies to buy this box.
So it seems that for FFG it is not enough to earn by selling models, they need much more by artificially raising value of "PAPER CARDS". And this way perfect blend of MtG and customizable tabletop wargame designed for milking consumers will emerge.

This isn't even a little bit true, and we know it's not true. Just stop. If you don't like the sales model of the game, don't buy it. But at least be honest about it.

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3 hours ago, Daverman said:

 

2. The Hero Expansions include a new piece of terrain and new setup cards (terrain, deployment and objective).  Looks like one new card each and I imagine these will be exclusive to each hero.  These are all setup options so they're not as vital to gameplay as the neutral upgrades are, but I suppose someone who wants every option might be annoyed they have to buy out of their faction to get them.  Or just proxy them for casual games.

I don't know the rules pertaining to this, but they might be exclusive to certain factions. Doesn't matter much to me since I'll probably grab all the heroes for painting, but for other people I hope it's not needed to buy them all.

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3 minutes ago, TallTonyB said:

This isn't even a little bit true, and we know it's not true. Just stop. If you don't like the sales model of the game, don't buy it. But at least be honest about it.

What are you talking about?
I quoted directly from FFG article - you should do some research or read posts carefully before posting.
Also I don't understand your second statement - I said exactly that; if X-Wing model will be maintained in Runewars I won't collect it anymore. I am not whining, I am not demanding change of marketing model from FFG, I'll do exactly that - stop investing in the system.
Of course one could speculate if this marketing strategy will make profit for FFG  - in my opinion no, because there is difference between buying small ship that makes about 1/3 of your list and one unit of troops that makes about 1/10 of your list - and this simple fact will probably discourage people from starting collecting Runewars.

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7 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

What are you talking about?
I quoted directly from FFG article - you should do some research or read posts carefully before posting.
Also I don't understand your second statement - I said exactly that; if X-Wing model will be maintained in Runewars I won't collect it anymore. I am not whining, I am not demanding change of marketing model from FFG, I'll do exactly that - stop investing in the system.
Of course one could speculate if this marketing strategy will make profit for FFG  - in my opinion no, because there is difference between buying small ship that makes about 1/3 of your list and one unit of troops that makes about 1/10 of your list - and this simple fact will probably discourage people from starting collecting Runewars.

I get that you may have been able to pick apart that one guy's post and he was being a little harsh, but did you read any of the other posts on here?  All neutral upgrades will be available to all factions.  So far it's looking like there will be small gaps of time where one faction doesn't have an upgrade in their box but we're talking like 3 months maximum from what we see so far.  So spreading upgrades across various faction will not be happening and that's not their marketing model so far.  The fact that this has been discussed numerous times on this forum made you look like a troll so some people took it that way.  I get that you must be relatively new to the Runewars forums, and I haven't seen you till recently so I assume you just missed all that.  I hope that we were able to clarify it though!

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1 minute ago, Willange said:

I get that you must be relatively new to the Runewars forums, and I haven't seen you till recently so I assume you just missed all that.  I hope that we were able to clarify it though!

He actually has been around for a while, but he recently changed his avatar. I respect @Embir82. I think his concerns are valid. But I also think that they are unfounded. The upgrade distribution model should NOT be a reason to avoid this game, because it's NOT the same as X-wing (as numerous others have mentioned). If there are other nagging things that make him want to walk away, I totally get that. I, myself, liked Armada, but I had to walk away from that one because I simply liked X-wing more, and didn't have time/money for both.

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1 minute ago, Parakitor said:

He actually has been around for a while, but he recently changed his avatar. I respect @Embir82. I think his concerns are valid. But I also think that they are unfounded. The upgrade distribution model should NOT be a reason to avoid this game, because it's NOT the same as X-wing (as numerous others have mentioned). If there are other nagging things that make him want to walk away, I totally get that. I, myself, liked Armada, but I had to walk away from that one because I simply liked X-wing more, and didn't have time/money for both.

Ah these darn avatars always changing on me... :P

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The other confusing thing here is the talk about the "X-Wing distribution model." Just what is that exactly? Which part is offensive? We've seen some people complain about having to buy out-of-faction for upgrades, which is one aspect of X-Wing's distribution model, but others are really upset about having to buy expansions for cards at all. Some of what Embir82 has talked about sounds like he's upset about buying-out-of-faction for neutral upgrades (which is a non-issue in this game), but other things he says sounds like he's upset about buying models just for cards, whether those are in-faction or not. While the out-of-faction issue shouldn't bother people because there is just a minor delay in availability, this game will force you to buy expansions for cardboard. If that bothers somebody, there's nothing that can be done about that. Each person has to decide how important those upgrades are to them and whether it's worth the cost to buy the extra expansions. Some people will be fine just collecting one of each expansion for their faction. Others will buy one of every Runewars products. Some people will buy multiples of certain expansions to give them as many list-building options as possible. Selling cardboard and plastic is just what FFG does, and if that model is distasteful, then avoiding their miniatures games is the only way to avoid it.

Edited by Budgernaut
punctuation

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45 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

What are you talking about?
I quoted directly from FFG article - you should do some research or read posts carefully before posting.
Also I don't understand your second statement - I said exactly that; if X-Wing model will be maintained in Runewars I won't collect it anymore. I am not whining, I am not demanding change of marketing model from FFG, I'll do exactly that - stop investing in the system.
Of course one could speculate if this marketing strategy will make profit for FFG  - in my opinion no, because there is difference between buying small ship that makes about 1/3 of your list and one unit of troops that makes about 1/10 of your list - and this simple fact will probably discourage people from starting collecting Runewars.

I think you need to read before posting. The part you are freaking out about "upgrades that can be used by any army" does not at any time mean they won't be in any other factions expansions. What is so hard to get about that. This isn't xwing cross faction model. Look at the article put up this.morning about the undead cavalry. See that card there? The column tactics one that people were freaking out about having to buy elves to get? The proof is right in front of you. I don't know what else to say. 

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35 minutes ago, Willange said:

I get that you may have been able to pick apart that one guy's post and he was being a little harsh, but did you read any of the other posts on here?  All neutral upgrades will be available to all factions.  So far it's looking like there will be small gaps of time where one faction doesn't have an upgrade in their box but we're talking like 3 months maximum from what we see so far.  So spreading upgrades across various faction will not be happening and that's not their marketing model so far.  The fact that this has been discussed numerous times on this forum made you look like a troll so some people took it that way.  I get that you must be relatively new to the Runewars forums, and I haven't seen you till recently so I assume you just missed all that.  I hope that we were able to clarify it though!

Check out the other threads where he was already complaining about this and everyone showed him it wasn't like that. And then he just starts another thread about it, and ignores everyone that tries to explain it to him. I'm not harsh. I just don't have patience for people who are willfully blind.

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Trolls cry, it's what they do.  What I don't understand is, people trying to convince him the game is worth playing.  Let him save his money for something else, that's cool. 

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3 minutes ago, rudedog said:

Trolls cry, it's what they do.  What I don't understand is, people trying to convince him the game is worth playing.  Let him save his money for something else, that's cool. 

I think the point with the convincing is more to speak to the other folks who are lurking and maybe not participating. A new person first coming here for information on this might get the wrong idea if no one bothered to set the trolls straight. 

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