Commander Leia and existing command tokens

[itzSteve 612]

Not to rehash the previous discussion of Commander Leia and whether a matching command token can stack or not...

I have a separate question:

Let's say I have a GR-75 with a nav token on it. The next command it reveals is a squadron command. With Leia's ability, the GR-75 can now activate 3 squads. If the GR-75 decides to do this, does it have to discard the nav token it has banked from a previous round since it can only hold one command token and you activated a third squadron as if you had a squadron token?

[Mad Cat 2,250]

That is the case if the flotilla had Ray Antiles on board. 

Can you give us the wording on the Leia card.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

With the known wording of Leia, you use your command dial with the effect of a command dial and token

She doesn't actually grant a token.

That's why there's the question on wether you can stack the existing token or wether it has an effect.

If she merely granted a token, the question would be moot

[itzSteve 612]

5 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

With the known wording of Leia, you use your command dial with the effect of a command dial and token

She doesn't actually grant a token.

That's why there's the question on wether you can stack the existing token or wether it has an effect.

If she merely granted a token, the question would be moot

This is why I fall into the command token cannot stack camp. They cannot stack as you cannot have two tokens of the same type on a ship. So, from my question, a ship cannot have a additional command token as you are using her abiltiy "as if" you had a token and the token would be replaced by the same token. But, if they are going to keep Leia's ability separate from command tokens (which I think was their intent), then I think any command tokens a ship may have at the time will be unaffected as her card states that you cannot use any "other" commands this turn.

[Green Knight 9,746]

You don't have to discard existing token.

You can't stack Leia and a token.

Call it foresight if you will.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

17 minutes ago, itzSteve said:

This is why I fall into the command token cannot stack camp. They cannot stack as you cannot have two tokens of the same type on a ship. So, from my question, a ship cannot have a additional command token as you are using her abiltiy "as if" you had a token and the token would be replaced by the same token. But, if they are going to keep Leia's ability separate from command tokens (which I think was their intent), then I think any command tokens a ship may have at the time will be unaffected as her card states that you cannot use any "other" commands this turn.

The question with Leia is not wether you can stack two tokens - You can't.  That's not part of the argument.

The question is, when the rules give you wording on how to resolve a dial and a token, are you allowed to fill in the gap on your own to include a dial and two tokens for double the token effect without being specifically told to...

 

 

[itzSteve 612]

9 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

The question with Leia is not wether you can stack two tokens - You can't.  That's not part of the argument.

The question is, when the rules give you wording on how to resolve a dial and a token, are you allowed to fill in the gap on your own to include a dial and two tokens for double the token effect without being specifically told to...

 

 

But isn't using a additional command token, even if it is the same as the dial, "another" command? If so, then Leia's ability cannot be used.

Edited May 17, 2017 by itzSteve

[Drasnighta 26,832]

12 minutes ago, itzSteve said:

But isn't using a additional command token, even if it is the same as the dial, "another" command? If so, then Leia's ability cannot be used.

Short Answer:  "We don't know."

You can combine 1, because the rules say you can combine one...   Because its only been theoretically able to combine one.  You never explicitly had an opportunity to combine the two.

Perhaps you can combine two, but we're just not told how without guidance/errata.

Furthermore, you're only actually resolving a dial, and getting the bonus as if  you had resolved a dial+token.

 

I mean, that's the tricky part about it...  You can take a hard line RAW countenance, and look at the game through nothing but precedence and such when no rule exists - and its something I normally advocate you do on on a first pass...   But I'll point out here, starting with her actual wording:


"When a friendly ship resolves a command by spending a command dial, if it has not yet resolved another command this round, it may resolve that command as if it spent a matching command token. If it does, that ship may not resolve another command this round."

 

To put this in logical parlance, the difference between the two interpretations is the difference between IF and IFF.

"When a friendly ship resolves a command by spending a command dial"

Does that mean, when you simply spend the dial, or when you spend the dial as part and parcel of also spending the dial and token ?  Because spending a dial and token still requisites spending the dial.

 

To be fair:  I want Leia to allow you to stack the token on.  I really do.  I don't see it happening, because, its **** good.  **** good...  

 

But to answer your original question - A Leia-enhanced ship, when it gets its greater effect, never actually gains a token that is automatically spent.  It just gains the effect of doing so, without actually doing so.  When it does so, there is no intrinsic effect that has happened at all with the pre-existing tokens on the ship.
(The trigger for having to discard tokens, for example, is gaining a token.  If no token is gained, none can be lost)

[itzSteve 612]

Thanks Dras! It would be very cool if they did stack, but I am not holding my breath... 

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

45 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

You don't have to discard existing token.

You can't stack Leia and a token.

Call it foresight if you will.

Or Admonition...

[Frimmel 2,593]

1 hour ago, itzSteve said:

Not to rehash the previous discussion of Commander Leia and whether a matching command token can stack or not...

I have a separate question:

Let's say I have a GR-75 with a nav token on it. The next command it reveals is a squadron command. With Leia's ability, the GR-75 can now activate 3 squads. If the GR-75 decides to do this, does it have to discard the nav token it has banked from a previous round since it can only hold one command token and you activated a third squadron as if you had a squadron token?

I'm going with "you don't have to discard the token." nuLeia's text doesn't grant/give an actual token so you would never have two command tokens on your one command value ship. By the same logic nuLeia would not trigger any effects based on gaining a command token. 

[Green Knight 9,746]

It makes no sense for Leia to enable a dial+ token+ token effect.

And with that I've repeated myself, so I'll leave you to it.

[TheEasternKing 607]

Leia is the same cost as Tarkin, yes?
As it stands she has the same value as Tarkin, but works pretty much the same just in a different way. 

If she allows dial+token, in addition to her allowing the ship to resolve as if it had a token, she will be way way undercosted. And it will add even more ability to use Squadrons to the Rebels, which is just what they need.

 

Edited May 18, 2017 by TheEasternKing

[Frimmel 2,593]

16 hours ago, Green Knight said:

It makes no sense for Leia to enable a dial+ token+ token effect.

And with that I've repeated myself, so I'll leave you to it.

I'm certainly not making any argument that the nuLeia effect should stack with an already held token. 

1 hour ago, TheEasternKing said:

Leia is the same cost as Tarkin, yes?
As it stands she has the same value as Tarkin, but works pretty much the same just in a different way. 

If she allows dial+token, in addition to her allowing the ship to resolve as if it had a token, she will be way way undercosted. And it will add even more ability to use Squadrons to the Rebels, which is just what they need.

 

Well at least they won't be zombies. 

[xanderf 6,788]

On 5/17/2017 at 11:17 AM, itzSteve said:

But isn't using a additional command token, even if it is the same as the dial, "another" command? If so, then Leia's ability cannot be used.

Not according to the FAQ.

pg 5 of FAQ 3.22:

Quote

COMMANDS
Q: When a ship spends a command dial and token of the same
type, does that count as one resolution of that command?
A: Yes.

 

[durandal343 418]

On 5/17/2017 at 1:56 PM, Green Knight said:

It makes no sense for Leia to enable a dial+ token+ token effect.

And with that I've repeated myself, so I'll leave you to it.

Ok, it might not make sense, but I see no reason without further clarification that it wouldn't work.  Look at Leia's text:

"When a friendly ship resolves a command by spending a command dial, if it has not yet resolved another command this round, it may resolve that command as if it spent a matching command token. If it does, that ship may not resolve another command this round."

You are limited to one command when you use Leia's ability.  She does not give you a token she gives you a bonus for the command dial you've chosen.  If you happen to have a token of the same kind the only thing to stop you from using it would be if that were considered resolving another command.  As was pointed out earlier matching dials and tokens are the same command.

1 hour ago, xanderf said:

pg 5 of FAQ 3.22:

Quote

COMMANDS
Q: When a ship spends a command dial and token of the same
type, does that count as one resolution of that command?
A: Yes.

 

This really does seem pretty clear when taking into account

dial + token = 1 command

and Leia gives you a bonus to the dial.  So it ends up being

BonusLeiaDial + token = 1 command

This may well be an oversight in the wording of the card, but as it is worded there is nothing restricting the use of the token.

[xanderf 6,788]

1 minute ago, durandal343 said:

Ok, it might not make sense, but I see no reason without further clarification that it wouldn't work.  Look at Leia's text:

"When a friendly ship resolves a command by spending a command dial, if it has not yet resolved another command this round, it may resolve that command as if it spent a matching command token. If it does, that ship may not resolve another command this round."

You are limited to one command when you use Leia's ability.  She does not give you a token she gives you a bonus for the command dial you've chosen.  If you happen to have a token of the same kind the only thing to stop you from using it would be if that were considered resolving another command.  As was pointed out earlier matching dials and tokens are the same command.

This really does seem pretty clear when taking into account

dial + token = 1 command

and Leia gives you a bonus to the dial.  So it ends up being

BonusLeiaDial + token = 1 command

This may well be an oversight in the wording of the card, but as it is worded there is nothing restricting the use of the token.

That's how I'm reading it, yeah.

dial + token = 1 command

Leia (which acts as if you were spending a dial + token) + token = 1 command

[Drasnighta 26,832]

Except if you resolve a dial + token, then Leia doesn’t trigger.

 

Since you resolved a dial+token ... not a dial.

 

“Resolves a Command by spending a dial ...”

 

not “treats dials as dial + token “ 

 

in order for her t do anything, you must resolve a command by spending a dial. No more, no less.

 

Edited October 17, 2017 by Drasnighta

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

It's not Leia's wording that restrains you from resolving an extra token.  It's the fact that the effect of doing so is undefined in the RRG.  The RRG explicitly defines three command effects, and only three:

1.)  Spending a dial
2.)  Spending a token
3.)  Spending a dial and a token

The RRG does not define the effects of spending a second token, nor does it specify dial+token+token to be a single command resolution.  Neither does Leia. 

It's pretty easy to speculate what the result of doing so would probably be, but there is no current rules basis allowing you to do it or defining the result.

This is all in the relevant thread that's linked in OP, and you would be better off putting in your $.02 there if you don't think it's sufficiently discussed there.

Edit:  I swear you follow me around and click post immediately before I do, Dras.  The last post was an hour ago, and I still got ninja'd by like a minute!

Edited October 17, 2017 by Ardaedhel

[Snipafist 7,541]

@Ardaedhel and @Drasnighta are completely correct. The RRG gives you three methods for resolving one command: a dial, a token, and a dial+token. A dial+token+token is not an option and you can only resolve a command once per activation, so trying to resolve dial+token+token is illegal.

I wrote a lot about the subject a while ago, if anyone is interested.

[durandal343 418]

1 hour ago, Snipafist said:

@Ardaedhel and @Drasnighta are completely correct. The RRG gives you three methods for resolving one command: a dial, a token, and a dial+token. A dial+token+token is not an option and you can only resolve a command once per activation, so trying to resolve dial+token+token is illegal.

I wrote a lot about the subject a while ago, if anyone is interested.

I understand there’s another thread where this should be discussed but your logic doesn’t follow here.  Leia + token is not two tokens.  @Drasnighta had the best logic with resolving a command plus a token is not the same as resolving a command alone and Leia calls for resolving a command dial.  The question isn’t whether there’s a game mechanic for resolving two tokens, it’s whether Leias text can trigger if you choose to resolve a dial and a token, which count as one command.  I would argue that her text only considers if you’ve spent a dial and doesn’t care if there is an accompanying token.  It is not clear and until it is there is a way to argue that any time you spend a dial, even if it is with an accompanying token, Leia will be valid.

The argument from @Drasnighta is the closest to convincing me this isn’t the case but I still feel the card does not negate my line of thinking.  And I am very sure it’s not spending two tokens, it’s just a beefed up command dial.

Her text does not let you use her ability when you resolve a command by spending a token alone, which is why it reads 'by spending a dial'

I say all this realizing that I could be very wrong but nothing I’ve seen makes me think I can’t spend a token with Leia.

Edited October 18, 2017 by durandal343

[Drasnighta 26,832]

26 minutes ago, durandal343 said:

I understand there’s another thread where this should be discussed but your logic doesn’t follow here.  Leia + token is not two tokens.  @Drasnighta had the best logic with resolving a command plus a token is not the same as resolving a command alone and Leia calls for resolving a command dial.  The question isn’t whether there’s a game mechanic for resolving two tokens, it’s whether Leias text can trigger if you choose to resolve a dial and a token, which count as one command.  I would argue that her text only considers if you’ve spent a dial and doesn’t care if there is an accompanying token.  It is not clear and until it is there is a way to argue that any time you spend a dial, even if it is with an accompanying token, Leia will be valid.

The argument from @Drasnighta is the closest to convincing me this isn’t the case but I still feel the card does not negate my line of thinking.  And I am very sure it’s not spending two tokens, it’s just a beefed up command dial.

Her text does not let you use her ability when you resolve a command by spending a token alone, which is why it reads 'by spending a dial'

I say all this realizing that I could be very wrong but nothing I’ve seen makes me think I can’t spend a token with Leia.

 

Then tell me.

Which of these 3 are you resolving when you have this theoretical Dial, Token, Token effect:

A Token

A Dial

A Dial and a Token

 

 

 

 

[Green Knight 9,746]

This is very immature of me, but:

[Vetnor 297]

You guys, as usual, are over complicating this.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

5 minutes ago, Vetnor said:

You guys, as usual, are over complicating this.

Then enlighten everyone to the uncomplicated solution.