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Princezilla

Punish me Harder

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3 hours ago, player2422845 said:

This concept is very good because it could illustrate the ship "firing all out". I think if it is designed properly it could reborn the ship and give it a unique play-style.

Thanks, that is the idea, to make something different, and since the punisher has those 4 pods, why not emphazise that.   

Something bomb related could be done as well.  

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My suggestions would be:

Title: 0 points
TIE Interdictor
At the start of deployment phase, you may replace any (Torpedo), (Missile) and (Bomb) upgrade cards with another upgrade card of equal or lesser value. 

Once deployed, place two extra munitions tokens to all equipped (Torpedo), (Missile) and (Bomb) upgrade cards.

So this helps with the cost, gives it more upgrades and also makes it unique in competitive play in that it can swap it's load out between matches.

In the pack, you would also need:

System Slot: 0 points
TIE Punisher only
Target Assistance Matrix
When attacking with a (Torpedo) or (Missile) upgrade, you may reduce the defender's agility by 1 for each red target lock token assigned to that ship.

Modification Slot: 2 points (?)
TIE Punisher only
High Yield Munitions
Immediately after rolling your attack dice, you must change any (Critical) results to two (Hit) results.

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Ive used them in HotAC as an enemy elite with 2 systems (currently Adv Sensors and Traj Sim) 2 mods (LWF and G. Chips) with Bomblets, Concussions, and Proton torps and Deathrains pilot ability - in addition they dont have to discard the TL for any Ordnance, they can make 2 attacks per round, and have a reload action - at that point I feel they are balanced against a standard Nym...having played 2 of them and harpoon Vader versus the Nym/Miranda 100pt list.

This Punisher is tougher and does more damage in arc than Nym could, but are still lower PS, cant move well, and are limited to in arc shots... which seems to be a decent balance point if it was cheaper than Nym by an appropriate amount of points (but i dont know what that would look like).  

It seems that with the limited movement options available that Punishers need the ability to absolutely demolish an enemy they get in range and arc.  So to fix that the Punisher either needs oppressive firepower or better maneuverability, or some increased mix of the 2.

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2 hours ago, Viktus106 said:

My suggestions would be:

Title: 0 points
TIE Interdictor
At the start of deployment phase, you may replace any (Torpedo), (Missile) and (Bomb) upgrade cards with another upgrade card of equal or lesser value. 

Once deployed, place two extra munitions tokens to all equipped (Torpedo), (Missile) and (Bomb) upgrade cards.

So this helps with the cost, gives it more upgrades and also makes it unique in competitive play in that it can swap it's load out between matches.

In the pack, you would also need:

System Slot: 0 points
TIE Punisher only
Target Assistance Matrix
When attacking with a (Torpedo) or (Missile) upgrade, you may reduce the defender's agility by 1 for each red target lock token assigned to that ship.

Modification Slot: 2 points (?)
TIE Punisher only
High Yield Munitions
Immediately after rolling your attack dice, you must change any (Critical) results to two (Hit) results.

I'm a fan of both of the second two, though as a fix perhaps 'High Yield Munitions' should be 0 points, especially as it is at the cost of Guidance Chips.

 

I think Tie Interdictor title should only be missiles and torps. Add another title regarding bombs. E.g. TIE HEAVY BOMBER.  And I would make it add a second mod slot so the ship could take chips for some more punch or lightweight frame for durability or both and scrap high Yeild munitions as that will proc far less than guidance chips will.

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45 minutes ago, Steelgunner said:

I'm just posting to contribute to the visibility of this thread in the hopes that someone at FFG notices and pushes through a fix for this ship.

What’s wrong with it? Serious question. 

Edited by Pooleman

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You all bring great ideas.

There is one point that nake consensus :

1 hour ago, Cap116 said:

Punishers need the ability to absolutely demolish an enemy they get in range and arc. 

So what about This? a title that alow attacking at range 1 with every torp and missile AND alowing to perform a second attack with a diferent secondary weapon if at range 1.

What i found fluff is the fact that it make the Gchip a better option than LWF ( and no heavy bomber should be lightweighted). And a combo like cruise missile / protob torp is super powerful but need to be very good at focus and target lock management.

It is my take on the ordinance based interdictor. I still think the BigBomber is the archetype that the faction the most.

What do you think?

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5 minutes ago, player2422845 said:

You all bring great ideas.

There is one point that nake consensus :

So what about This? a title that alow attacking at range 1 with every torp and missile AND alowing to perform a second attack with a diferent secondary weapon if at range 1.

What i found fluff is the fact that it make the Gchip a better option than LWF ( and no heavy bomber should be lightweighted). And a combo like cruise missile / protob torp is super powerful but need to be very good at focus and target lock management.

It is my take on the ordinance based interdictor. I still think the BigBomber is the archetype that the faction the most.

What do you think?

The punisher looks like a k-wing without the turret, but it gets an extra missle slot and a system slot. That seems like a fair trade off to me. What about a tittle that consumes a missle and a torpedo to add a turret?

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1 hour ago, Pooleman said:

The punisher looks like a k-wing without the turret, but it gets an extra missle slot and a system slot. That seems like a fair trade off to me. What about a tittle that consumes a missle and a torpedo to add a turret?

It's not even close to a fair trade.  Look at how often Miranda shows up at tournaments.  Now compare that to the Punisher.  The TLT slot is worth way more than extra missile and system slots.

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Miranda also has regen and SLAM. Punishers are arc-locked and not very maneuverable.

They're super expensive and easier to kill than a TIE Bomber. Bomber has 6 HP behind 2 agi, Punisher has 9 HP behind 1 agi. The devs didn't really think about that trade-off. Even unmodified, the Bomber usually rolls about 6/8 of an evade whereas a Punisher rolls 3/8 of an evade (those numbers aren't exactly correct but they're close). Basically, when several attacks land on the same Punisher, it's just as easy to focus fire and kill as a bomber, at 5 more points for the base chassis and a worse dial. 

Fix priority #1 for the Punisher is survivability. There is no way anyone's going to take a 30-something point ship (at it's cheapest optimal loadout) that an opponent can lock onto and kill before it shoots more than once. That's why Punishers are a flat-out NPE to play with. Against a number of competitive lists, they're dead before they shoot. For example, 3 Harpoon Missiles are practically guaranteed to kill any Punisher.

And then against something that doesn't barf 10+ attack dice at you and kill you before you shoot, you're going to get arc-dodged. Not sure how to fix that one, I think Punishers are meant to be slow and arc-dodge-able, but they definitely need to be beefier and harder to kill. 

More bomb slots and some really, really nasty options for bombs that only the Punisher can use wouldn't hurt either. 

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4 hours ago, Pooleman said:

The punisher looks like a k-wing without the turret, but it gets an extra missle slot and a system slot. That seems like a fair trade off to me. What about a tittle that consumes a missle and a torpedo to add a turret?

Boy, I thought I needed some more tea this Monday to wake up....but @Pooleman, you need it much more than I, even though it's more gray here than in London.

2 hours ago, Kieransi said:

Miranda also has regen and SLAM. Punishers are arc-locked and not very maneuverable.

They're super expensive and easier to kill than a TIE Bomber. Bomber has 6 HP behind 2 agi, Punisher has 9 HP behind 1 agi. The devs didn't really think about that trade-off. Even unmodified, the Bomber usually rolls about 6/8 of an evade whereas a Punisher rolls 3/8 of an evade (those numbers aren't exactly correct but they're close). Basically, when several attacks land on the same Punisher, it's just as easy to focus fire and kill as a bomber, at 5 more points for the base chassis and a worse dial. 

Fix priority #1 for the Punisher is survivability. There is no way anyone's going to take a 30-something point ship (at it's cheapest optimal loadout) that an opponent can lock onto and kill before it shoots more than once. That's why Punishers are a flat-out NPE to play with. Against a number of competitive lists, they're dead before they shoot. For example, 3 Harpoon Missiles are practically guaranteed to kill any Punisher.

And then against something that doesn't barf 10+ attack dice at you and kill you before you shoot, you're going to get arc-dodged. Not sure how to fix that one, I think Punishers are meant to be slow and arc-dodge-able, but they definitely need to be beefier and harder to kill. 

More bomb slots and some really, really nasty options for bombs that only the Punisher can use wouldn't hurt either. 

This.

.....and literally the rest!! Well penned @Kieransi, well penned.

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3 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Boy, I thought I needed some more tea this Monday to wake up....but @Pooleman, you need it much more than I, even though it's more gray here than in London.

This.

.....and literally the rest!! Well penned @Kieransi, well penned.

Be nice, man. I do t really fly imperials. I fly rebels 95% of the time. 

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2 minutes ago, Pooleman said:

Be nice, man. I do t really fly imperials. I fly rebels 95% of the time. 

I get you, I didn't mean harm, just invited you to tea, haha. But tongue-n-cheek  interpretation aside, I believe tea does really assist in intellectual pursuits. Anyway, since you're a Rebel Ace, on the mat, how often have you engaged the game recluse that is the Punisher? If you have much at all, it would not only be quite unusual, but it would lend itself to guiding you in the blatant understanding of the great chasm that lies between the abilities of the vaunted K-Wing and the lowly Punisher.

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23 hours ago, Stevey86 said:

They missed their chance to give it 3 defender wings instead of the 2 it got.

As for a Punisher fix, I've pitched the following before after consulting with others:

On 1/25/2018 at 9:19 AM, Yakostovian said:

My proposal is any of the following (I'd like to see at least 4/6)

TIE/IT
Tie Punisher Only. Title.

  • You may equip any number of "TIE only" modifications.
  • When defending, you may cancel any [hit] result by discarding one equipped [bomb], [missile], or [torpedo] upgrades.
  • When attacking with a secondary weapon that instructs you to "discard this card to perform this attack," you may also perform that attack at an additional legal target.
  • You can gain and maintain an additional target lock on a different ship.
  • You may drop an additional bomb using the "3" template. If you place two bombs this turn, skip your attack action during the Combat phase.
     
  1. The first clause allows use of both Lightweight frame and Twin Ion Engine Mk 2. The original idea in my head was limiting these bonus modifications to just "TIE only" but seeing as there are presently only 2 such modifications for 3 total squad points, I don't see the need to specify you cannot take an additional modification. Perhaps it would be ruled differently, but I would like feedback on this idea.
  2. The second clause makes the ship far more survivable, as some have already pitched. I don't take credit for this idea.
  3. The third clause makes Punishers, well, punishing.
  4. The fourth clause permits the third one to fire at multiple targets. The third clause mostly needs this.
  5. The fifth clause is something that perhaps should be a TIE Bomber and Punisher only item, so perhaps it should be saved for elsewhere. It also gives them more versatility in bombs than most, and permits the use of a dropped and launched bomb in the same turn, or the ability to drop 2 bombs.

 

 

 

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How about something like this?

Threat Assessment System.  Imperial Only.  System Slot.   When you are dealt damage, reduce that damage by one to a min of zero if you have a target lock on the attacker.

 

This would be a nice defensive upgrade to a few of the under performing Imperial ships.  A more limited defensive upgrade than Sensor Jammer, that competes with FCS.  This would help the Lambda, Upsilon, and the Punisher stick around a bit longer, while giving the Silencer and SF a valid alternative to FCS.

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@Yakostovian, I like your ideas! For the first one, I think I prefer

"You may equip any number of different modifications costing a combined value of three or less."

I'd make that one a free mod. Basically, I think the ability to equip LWF, Twin Ion Mk.II, Chips, and LRS would come close to fixing the Punisher and would flat-out fix the Bomber. So I'd make that one TIE Punisher and TIE Bomber only

Any of the other four, as a TIE Punisher only title, could bring the Punisher up to being about balanced. 

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58 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I get you, I didn't mean harm, just invited you to tea, haha. But tongue-n-cheek  interpretation aside, I believe tea does really assist in intellectual pursuits. Anyway, since you're a Rebel Ace, on the mat, how often have you engaged the game recluse that is the Punisher? If you have much at all, it would not only be quite unusual, but it would lend itself to guiding you in the blatant understanding of the great chasm that lies between the abilities of the vaunted K-Wing and the lowly Punisher.

I’ve flown against it once or twice. It wasn’t very memorable. 

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In my opinion any Punisher fix should:

1) Increase survivability

2) Not occupy it's system slot or otherwise restrict build options the ship currently has, the ship already has issues in remaining distinct from the Bomber the last thing it needs is fewer slots to work with.

3) Be thematically/logically appropriate for the ship and it's lore ie not just slapping a turret on it or having it give up it's munitions slots for better stats or other boosts.

4) Not just copy a fix given to another ship 

5) Give it an ept slot

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I also think the thematic is important. It would be sad if the ships was just copies between factions. I am ok if punished died early but deliver firepower , because there is no such archetype in the game. but for now, it just dont shoot.

What make the gunboat so fun for me is that it is unic and customisable, dependingvof the role I want to give to it. I would love to have this choice  for punisher, an ordance carier or heavy bomber, with unique abilities ( imo not reload !), so it will fill a role in the squad.

I dont care if this ship is not good to win tournaments, but i care if it is fun to play, and for now it not fun. I prefer my good old deathfire to drop mines and the almighty gunboat to cary ordnance ( and guns, sometimes...).

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14 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

It's not even close to a fair trade.  Look at how often Miranda shows up at tournaments.  Now compare that to the Punisher.  The TLT slot is worth way more than extra missile and system slots.

Agreed. Unless you have a specific multi-slot upgrade to use, multiple missile, torpedo and bomb slots are just the ability to carry more ammo, not 'upgrades'. 

A system slot is nice, but you're essentially comparing a punisher's system slot to a k-wing's crew and turret slots, and that's before you get into Miranda Doni's PS8 and awesome pilot ability.

9 hours ago, Princezilla said:

In my opinion any Punisher fix should:

1) Increase survivability

2) Not occupy it's system slot or otherwise restrict build options the ship currently has, the ship already has issues in remaining distinct from the Bomber the last thing it needs is fewer slots to work with.

3) Be thematically/logically appropriate for the ship and it's lore ie not just slapping a turret on it or having it give up it's munitions slots for better stats or other boosts.

4) Not just copy a fix given to another ship 

5) Give it an ept slot

I can live without the EPT slot, but the others I agree with.

  • A Punisher doesn't want to be turned into a TIE bomber (by discounts) or a Gunboat (by adding reload). 
  • It should be a 'head on attack boat'. That's kind of the Punisher's thing. So I have no problem with it being arc-dodge-able; you need to use planning and the rest of your squad to keep it 'this side towards enemy'. The problem is that it doesn't (currently) reward you enough for achieving that. 
  • It needs to be able to survive long enough to empty its massive number of ordnance upgrades into target(s).  This boils down into:
    • Live longer
      • Reinforce is the obvious one here. If it's locked forwards, then it's only reinforcing across a narrow arc, but within that arc it can take one heck of a beating
      • Needs to be a free action or token based on [trigger] because the punisher needs its actions to support using secondary weapons
    • Fire ordnance faster
      • Either an ability to double-tap (either one target or multiple targets) or as suggested an ability to discard additional [torpedo] or [missile] upgrades to add dice or dice modification to a secondary weapon attack. 
      • Any double-tap ability needs to figure out wording to support those weapons needing target locks to attack, and should ideally mesh well with Redline's ability.
  • Deathrain is already pretty good with bomblets and lightweight frame. A toughness boost would still help him a lot, though.

 

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18 hours ago, Pooleman said:

The punisher looks like a k-wing without the turret, but it gets an extra missle slot and a system slot. That seems like a fair trade off to me. What about a tittle that consumes a missle and a torpedo to add a turret?

It's not even close to a fair trade-off.  Turret gives you wildly increased targetting capacity.  Missile gives you 0 extra targetting capacity, especially on a ship that is more than liekly to die before it spends all its ordnance anyway.

System is valuable, but only when you're shooting usefully anyway, which at a maximum of PS7 is tough to arrange.

--

FOr me the Punisher needs to be 2 of the following 3 things:

- Shootier

- Cheaper

- Tougher

My preference is Cheaper and Shootier, personally.  Tough and tanky has been done to death and drags the game out.  ANd any putative fix needs to take account of bombing as a viable strategy as well.

So I'd think of the following, on a dual card:

Double tap ability.  When secondary weapons would be discarded, you may choose not to discard them.  Once per round, after attacking, you may make an attack with an equipped secondary weapon.  Combos with FCS to give you targetting primary weapon, or double secondary if you've already got a lock, and saves you the points on EM.

Bomb ability.  When you discard a [bomb] upgrade to drop a bomb token, you may either drop two identical tokens, one using the 1 right bank, one the 1 left bank, OR you may choose not to discard the [bomb] upgrade card.  Means you only need to bring a single bomb, and you don't need Bomblet at all to have infinite ones.  Or, means you can double up COnners or Clusters, which is huge.

COuld also stand some generic Imperial only damage buffs and TIE Only Imperial Only defence buffs too, not just for the Punisher but for everyone.

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55 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's not even close to a fair trade-off.  Turret gives you wildly increased targetting capacity.  Missile gives you 0 extra targetting capacity, especially on a ship that is more than liekly to die before it spends all its ordnance anyway.

System is valuable, but only when you're shooting usefully anyway, which at a maximum of PS7 is tough to arrange.

--

FOr me the Punisher needs to be 2 of the following 3 things:

- Shootier

- Cheaper

- Tougher

My preference is Cheaper and Shootier, personally.  Tough and tanky has been done to death and drags the game out.  ANd any putative fix needs to take account of bombing as a viable strategy as well.

So I'd think of the following, on a dual card:

Double tap ability.  When secondary weapons would be discarded, you may choose not to discard them.  Once per round, after attacking, you may make an attack with an equipped secondary weapon.  Combos with FCS to give you targetting primary weapon, or double secondary if you've already got a lock, and saves you the points on EM.

Bomb ability.  When you discard a [bomb] upgrade to drop a bomb token, you may either drop two identical tokens, one using the 1 right bank, one the 1 left bank, OR you may choose not to discard the [bomb] upgrade card.  Means you only need to bring a single bomb, and you don't need Bomblet at all to have infinite ones.  Or, means you can double up COnners or Clusters, which is huge.

COuld also stand some generic Imperial only damage buffs and TIE Only Imperial Only defence buffs too, not just for the Punisher but for everyone.

I’ll be buying a Punisher today. I don’t fly imperials often but I’ll fly it on Thursday and I’ll win. 

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