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Princezilla

Punish me Harder

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22 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Personally I think it's time to give up on the failed Punisher experiment...

Except I know people who are having success with it.

12 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

 

These are my title ideas for the Punisher fix.

I think we need to wait to see what happens with the next wave.  We have a few things that could find a place for the Punisher.   Remember that FFG tries not to find ONE thing that makes something work if they can help it.   They like a number of little tweaks to see if they can get something right.  I'm thinking of Munitions Failsafe, Extra Munitions, and Guidance Chips as three separate things that have come out for Ordnance.   So, with the next wave, we have Unguided Rockets (yes, it works for Tie Bomber, too, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work for the Punisher).  We also have:

Quote

Mine... Ma... - During setup.... forces step... any number... *bomb* upgrade... corresponding... the play area... of (During set up, before the place forces step, you may place for any *bomb* upgrade you have equipped a corresponding bomb marker in the play area, outside range 2 of any edge?)

and....

Quote

Bom(blet) Generator - Unique

 

These three things all have the possibility of making the Tie Punisher a viable thing on the table....or at least closer to it.    Yes, we don't know what they are, but stop trying to brainstorm your own fixes until we see what these actually are.  

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13 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Except I know people who are having success with it.

I think we need to wait to see what happens with the next wave.  We have a few things that could find a place for the Punisher.   Remember that FFG tries not to find ONE thing that makes something work if they can help it.   They like a number of little tweaks to see if they can get something right.  I'm thinking of Munitions Failsafe, Extra Munitions, and Guidance Chips as three separate things that have come out for Ordnance.   So, with the next wave, we have Unguided Rockets (yes, it works for Tie Bomber, too, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work for the Punisher).  We also have:

and....

 

These three things all have the possibility of making the Tie Punisher a viable thing on the table....or at least closer to it.    Yes, we don't know what they are, but stop trying to brainstorm your own fixes until we see what these actually are.  

This is 100% true however the Punisher has dramatically underpreformed since it's launch and these teased upgrades are highly unlikely to fully address its core issues: it's cost adds up very rapidly once you start giving it the upgrades it needs to function and and it lacks the durability survive long enough to get its ordinance off.

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2 minutes ago, Princezilla said:

This is 100% true however the Punisher has dramatically underpreformed since it's launch and these teased upgrades are highly unlikely to fully address its core issues: it's cost adds up very rapidly once you start giving it the upgrades it needs to function and and it lacks the durability survive long enough to get its ordinance off.

I think we will have to see.  These could bring about a Punisher that is very bomb oriented and with Unguided Rockets for normal attacks.  

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1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

These three things all have the possibility of making the Tie Punisher a viable thing on the table....or at least closer to it.    Yes, we don't know what they are, but stop trying to brainstorm your own fixes until we see what these actually are.  

But that's all the fun; besides, there are a lot more brains at work here than in FFGs offices which are stretched thin over so many games. Sometimes I like the options on the forum better and they would actually be better on the mat than the released fixes. Just sayin'.

40 minutes ago, Princezilla said:

This is 100% true however the Punisher has dramatically underpreformed since it's launch and these teased upgrades are highly unlikely to fully address its core issues: it's cost adds up very rapidly once you start giving it the upgrades it needs to function and and it lacks the durability survive long enough to get its ordinance off.

Yeah, it's tough when the chassis is so overpriced for it's output. A few times I've gotten her to work fairly solidly, but she never "punishes" another meta squad like her name suggests. In Epic play and in missions they work quite solidly, but that's only a part of the game that she is supposed to dovetail into.

37 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I think we will have to see.  These could bring about a Punisher that is very bomb oriented and with Unguided Rockets for normal attacks.  

I hope that there are fixes in the latest Scum ship release that assists Punishers but not other platforms; because if all bomb platforms are boosted by the same mods, the Punisher will again lag behind and not be a viable option as she always has basically been. I think the Punisher needs a Title card if any ship ever has. And a title like Scum get, a title where it is all pluses and no minuses in assistance with cost reduction to boot, akin to the latest Scum boost: Guns for Hire. 

"It's our only hope"

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10 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

But that's all the fun; besides, there are a lot more brains at work here than in FFGs offices which are stretched thin over so many games. Sometimes I like the options on the forum better and they would actually be better on the mat than the released fixes. Just sayin'.

Yeah, it's tough when the chassis is so overpriced for it's output. A few times I've gotten her to work fairly solidly, but she never "punishes" another meta squad like her name suggests. In Epic play and in missions they work quite solidly, but that's only a part of the game that she is supposed to dovetail into.

I hope that there are fixes in the latest Scum ship release that assists Punishers but not other platforms; because if all bomb platforms are boosted by the same mods, the Punisher will again lag behind and not be a viable option as she always has basically been. I think the Punisher needs a Title card if any ship ever has. And a title like Scum get, a title where it is all pluses and no minuses in assistance with cost reduction to boot, akin to the latest Scum boost: Guns for Hire. 

"It's our only hope"

It would be really cool to see some ordinance specific system upgrades, that could help a lot and also make the B-Wing viable as a torp carrier fitting its fluff.

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34 minutes ago, Princezilla said:

It would be really cool to see some ordinance specific system upgrades, that could help a lot and also make the B-Wing viable as a torp carrier fitting its fluff.

Yes. I think that X-Wings need a boost so that it's easy to fly a squad of T-65 each with a torp on board without such a cost bump, fly like cannon X-Wings of yore. And B-Wings should be very good ordinance platforms, like TIE Bombers can be and should start to be better at with newer releases named in threads above. Punishers on the other hand should NOT be a tanky jouster and NOT be a solid missile platform. Punishers should be an 8 pound hammer, not a scalpel; they should be unlike anything that other factions bring to the table; they should have something befitting their name; they should have a "holy crap!" ability to just Punish an opponents squad in a flurry of secondary weapon action, IMO.

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27 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Yes. I think that X-Wings need a boost so that it's easy to fly a squad of T-65 each with a torp on board without such a cost bump, fly like cannon X-Wings of yore. And B-Wings should be very good ordinance platforms, like TIE Bombers can be and should start to be better at with newer releases named in threads above. Punishers on the other hand should NOT be a tanky jouster and NOT be a solid missile platform. Punishers should be an 8 pound hammer, not a scalpel; they should be unlike anything that other factions bring to the table; they should have something befitting their name; they should have a "holy crap!" ability to just Punish an opponents squad in a flurry of secondary weapon action, IMO.

Yeah, it should be the undisputed alpha strike queen, though I'm not opposed to it doing that through missiles in addition to torps and it would be cool if it had multiple ways if accomplishing that each with different merits.

 

It should also be able to function as a potent minelayer/bomber in alternate builds, fortunately though it does look like they are working on this part in the next wave.

I'm trying to think if any ship would become disgustingly overpowered if there were some hyper potent munitions boosters for the systems slot and I don't think there are.  Nera would become awesome but she would still have enough drawbacks to not be OP.

Some ideas:

Auto Targeting Array: 

You may ignore Target Lock requirements when making attacks with [missile] and [torpedo] secondary weapons.

Improved Guidance Systems:

When attacking with [missile] and [torpedo] secondary weapons you may change up to two blank results to [focus]

Edited by Princezilla

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9 minutes ago, Princezilla said:

Yeah, it should be the undisputed alpha strike queen, though I'm not opposed to it doing that through missiles in addition to torps and it would be cool if it had multiple ways if accomplishing that each with different merits.

 

It should also be able to function as a potent minelayer/bomber in alternate builds, fortunately though it does look like they are working on this part in the next wave.

I'm trying to think if any ship would become disgustingly overpowered if there were some hyper potent munitions boosters for the systems slot and I don't think there are.  Nera would become awesome but she would still have enough drawbacks to not be OP.

Some ideas:

Auto Targeting Array: 

You may ignore Target Lock requirements when making attacks with [missile] and [torpedo] secondary weapons.

Improved Guidance Systems:

When attacking with [missile] and [torpedo] secondary weapons you may change up to two blank results to [focus]

I think in order to gain access to this ability, the ship must have (2) missile slots, (2) bomb slots, and (2) torpedo slots. Yes, it should be potentially devastating (actually PUNISHING to your squad), but also it should be a one-trick pony. Kinda designed to eliminate one huge or super important ship off the board. This could also help in tournament scoring MOV issues we currently have; as well as it will reduce the appeal of having just two ship builds as points sinks because if you run up against a Punisher, odds are, one is gone. Unlikely at best, but fun to ponder. 

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10 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I think in order to gain access to this ability, the ship must have (2) missile slots, (2) bomb slots, and (2) torpedo slots. Yes, it should be potentially devastating (actually PUNISHING to your squad), but also it should be a one-trick pony. Kinda designed to eliminate one huge or super important ship off the board. This could also help in tournament scoring MOV issues we currently have; as well as it will reduce the appeal of having just two ship builds as points sinks because if you run up against a Punisher, odds are, one is gone. Unlikely at best, but fun to ponder. 

The system slot is the big limiter here, as unless I'm forgetting something the B-Wing, Ghost and Punisher are the only ships with both it and multiple ordinance slots and the Ghost already has four dice so rarely uses torps.

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2 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

Yeah, the Ghost definitely needs no boost...

This wouldn't really effect it though as it basically never uses ordinance because of its four dice primary and the usefulness of its special arc negated by TLT access.

Edited by Princezilla

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33 point Deathrain (Collision Detector, Unguided Rockets, Bomblet Generator, LWF) is something to consider. It is a beefy arcdodger that splits its damage between Unguided Rockets on turns with actions and constant bomblet drops. Limiting factors are PS6 and a weakness to alphastriking, along with the difficulty presented by keeping your own ships out of constant blast ranges. Removing the 2 point EM tax is huge for him, though.

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3 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

33 point Deathrain (Collision Detector, Unguided Rockets, Bomblet Generator, LWF) is something to consider. It is a beefy arcdodger that splits its damage between Unguided Rockets on turns with actions and constant bomblet drops. Limiting factors are PS6 and a weakness to alphastriking, along with the difficulty presented by keeping your own ships out of constant blast ranges. Removing the 2 point EM tax is huge for him, though.

I was thinking of this in comparison to Thermal Detonators + Cluster Mines + Extra Munitions (35 points, 37 with LWF, 39 with Unguided Rockets).  The 33 point version is more likely to get more drops, but they're going to mean less.  It's a big discount, too.  I'm not sure it's going to matter as much, though.  Without an action bomb, Deathrain  isn't hunting aces,  and if he's not doing that, who really cares?

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18 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I was thinking of this in comparison to Thermal Detonators + Cluster Mines + Extra Munitions (35 points, 37 with LWF, 39 with Unguided Rockets).  The 33 point version is more likely to get more drops, but they're going to mean less.  It's a big discount, too.  I'm not sure it's going to matter as much, though.  Without an action bomb, Deathrain  isn't hunting aces,  and if he's not doing that, who really cares?

It is true. Big advantage is fitting very well into double SFs, pointwise. He does not have the strengths he has been known for, but the qualities he gains are excellent. When FGD won his store championship with Deathrain he did explicitly say that the ability to premovement roll through Seismics was crucial for arcdodging. Either Unguided Rockets or AC can provide some bite along with the bomb damage that will eventualy matter.

It isn't obviously good, but at least worth a try.

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1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

Without an action bomb, Deathrain  isn't hunting aces,  and if he's not doing that, who really cares?

Don't discount that the Bomblets blow up at the end of Deathrain's turn.   If an ace gets within R1 of either the front or rear bomb spot of the Tie Punisher, it's going to be hit before it can move again.  

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On 6/17/2017 at 6:01 AM, heychadwick said:

Don't discount that the Bomblets blow up at the end of Deathrain's turn.   If an ace gets within R1 of either the front or rear bomb spot of the Tie Punisher, it's going to be hit before it can move again.  

No they don't?  They blow up at the end of the activation phase, same as every other maneuver drop bomb.  The aces will have moved before it explodes, and have the chance to get out of it.  That's why action mines are better for hunting higher PS ships, and maneuver drops are better for hunting lower PS ships that have already moved when you decide whether to drop it.

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The minefield mapper looks interesting. A cutlass squadron pilot is now a cheap mine truck; with lightweight frame and unguided rockets it's not totally useless once dry, and with minefield mapper, extra munitions and proximity mines x 2 you can have four big mine templates to cordon off one part of the board.

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Used the following list yesterday on a trial run:

Omega Leader:
Juke
Comms Relay

Inquisitor:
Push the Limit
Autothrusters
Title
Proton Rockets

"Deathfire"
Minefield Mapper
Unguided Rockets
Extra Munitions
Cluster Mines
Connor Net
Lightweight Frame

Played against:
Dash / Miranda

Quickfire / "Whisper" / Trainee

RAC / Darth Vader

Minefield Mapper being able to block off one / two routes at the start of the game really helped. They didn't explode often ( I think one set went off across all three games ) but the threat of them was very rewarding.

Against Dash / Miranda, I put one set of cluster mines over an asteroid which I knew offered a big advantage to Dash, the second set I placed in such a way that we either went the LONG way round the map and engaged in my favor or the Dash / Miranda player had to engage near the first set. I felt this impacted the game hugely in my favor, especially when Dash was not able to barrel roll due to the mines which meant he had to eat a range one procket and range two unguided rocket. Next turn, he got a Connor Net in his face courtesy of "Deathfire" and then the second set the very next turn, spelling his doom.

The hardest match up was the Imperial three ship list. All three ships fired at PS9 and "Whisper" was always going to be a pain. I clustered as many of the asteroids into one area as possible and then cut off one of the clear entrances. The second set I actually placed at range 3.2 of the ships starting possession to force them to turn and not take the easy route into the fight. This actually hampered Whisper some what and she engaged a turn later than normal, which gave me the slightest of edges.

Against RAC / Soontir, again, I clustered as many of the rocks together as possible with one obvious "safe" pass. I then used my mines to form a blockade on one side. There was no way past that section without taking damage. I did this so that the Decimator couldn't just bank + boost their way around the entire outside of the map. They would either have to kill me, go into the rocks or face the wrath of six overlapping cluster mines.

In all three games, "Deathfire" took an obscene amount of hatred. Even to the detriment of other "easier" targets. Soontir took a range three shot at him/her rather than a range two shot on Omega Leader who was locked on to RAC and only had an evade token remaining. The treat was real however as "Deathfire" was able to dump a forward facing Connor Net right into Soontir and then barrel roll into a decent position for next turn to drop another out his/her rear chutes. Two turns of no actions saw Soontir bite the dust (he did roll three natural evades against Omega Leader however) and then RAC got decimated via concentrated fire. He even banked over a rock to avoid having to potentially face the cluster F i left at the start of the game.

I appreciate that this is just three matches, but I liked each of the games and felt that the Punisher positively contributed to each of them. Unguided Rockets helps with long range engagements, lightweight frame gives you three agility at range three (yey!) and "Deathfire" ability to drop Connor Nets out the front was amazing. especially against Dash.

I need to see how the above effects triple Jumpmasters and Scum lists but at the moment, I am happy with the Punisher (Normally in this list it is a Col. Vessery with X7/VI/Stealth and Omega gains a Stealth too). 
 

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4 hours ago, Viktus106 said:

Used the following list yesterday on a trial run:

Omega Leader:
Juke
Comms Relay

Inquisitor:
Push the Limit
Autothrusters
Title
Proton Rockets

"Deathfire"
Minefield Mapper
Unguided Rockets
Extra Munitions
Cluster Mines
Connor Net
Lightweight Frame

Played against:
Dash / Miranda

Quickfire / "Whisper" / Trainee

RAC / Darth Vader

Minefield Mapper being able to block off one / two routes at the start of the game really helped. They didn't explode often ( I think one set went off across all three games ) but the threat of them was very rewarding.

Against Dash / Miranda, I put one set of cluster mines over an asteroid which I knew offered a big advantage to Dash, the second set I placed in such a way that we either went the LONG way round the map and engaged in my favor or the Dash / Miranda player had to engage near the first set. I felt this impacted the game hugely in my favor, especially when Dash was not able to barrel roll due to the mines which meant he had to eat a range one procket and range two unguided rocket. Next turn, he got a Connor Net in his face courtesy of "Deathfire" and then the second set the very next turn, spelling his doom.

The hardest match up was the Imperial three ship list. All three ships fired at PS9 and "Whisper" was always going to be a pain. I clustered as many of the asteroids into one area as possible and then cut off one of the clear entrances. The second set I actually placed at range 3.2 of the ships starting possession to force them to turn and not take the easy route into the fight. This actually hampered Whisper some what and she engaged a turn later than normal, which gave me the slightest of edges.

Against RAC / Soontir, again, I clustered as many of the rocks together as possible with one obvious "safe" pass. I then used my mines to form a blockade on one side. There was no way past that section without taking damage. I did this so that the Decimator couldn't just bank + boost their way around the entire outside of the map. They would either have to kill me, go into the rocks or face the wrath of six overlapping cluster mines.

In all three games, "Deathfire" took an obscene amount of hatred. Even to the detriment of other "easier" targets. Soontir took a range three shot at him/her rather than a range two shot on Omega Leader who was locked on to RAC and only had an evade token remaining. The treat was real however as "Deathfire" was able to dump a forward facing Connor Net right into Soontir and then barrel roll into a decent position for next turn to drop another out his/her rear chutes. Two turns of no actions saw Soontir bite the dust (he did roll three natural evades against Omega Leader however) and then RAC got decimated via concentrated fire. He even banked over a rock to avoid having to potentially face the cluster F i left at the start of the game.

I appreciate that this is just three matches, but I liked each of the games and felt that the Punisher positively contributed to each of them. Unguided Rockets helps with long range engagements, lightweight frame gives you three agility at range three (yey!) and "Deathfire" ability to drop Connor Nets out the front was amazing. especially against Dash.

I need to see how the above effects triple Jumpmasters and Scum lists but at the moment, I am happy with the Punisher (Normally in this list it is a Col. Vessery with X7/VI/Stealth and Omega gains a Stealth too). 
 

Very interesting results! Though I assume that you mean Deathrain as Deathfire is a TIE Bomber pilot.

Minefield mapper does seem to take some of the pressure off her to get all her bombs off as quickly as possible while still fufilling her old role as an ace hunter so the combo isn't nearly as unsynergetic as some were speculating.

Bomblet generator will give her surprising arc dodging potential but it's offensive potential will be somewhat limited until the meta shifts more towards lower PS pilots again. It still is very useful though if you are good at prediction and can be used to force aces to blow their actions on repositioning rather than dice mods making it handy even if aces can avoid it's damage.

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11 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

No they don't?  They blow up at the end of the activation phase, same as every other maneuver drop bomb.  The aces will have moved before it explodes, and have the chance to get out of it.  That's why action mines are better for hunting higher PS ships, and maneuver drops are better for hunting lower PS ships that have already moved when you decide whether to drop it.

That's my worry for deathrain.  He's deadly because he autoplaces on top of Aces before they move. Not sure  omblet is actually going to be as good for him as everyone thinks. 

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5 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

I just want a TIE/IT title that's a permanent faceup reinforce

Stupid thing in fluff is supposed to charge through heavily fortified targets head on, so it better be able to take a hit

Then price is less an issue 

A lot of people have suggested reenforce as a way to help it's durability issues particularly after the new Wookie ship and I agree that it is definitely a thematically appropriate solution though there is a bit of an issue with how it plays with fire arcs and I don't think that just giving it one for free with no trigger is the right way to go.

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7 hours ago, Princezilla said:

A lot of people have suggested reenforce as a way to help it's durability issues particularly after the new Wookie ship and I agree that it is definitely a thematically appropriate solution though there is a bit of an issue with how it plays with fire arcs and I don't think that just giving it one for free with no trigger is the right way to go.

My simple proposal would be to have its reinforce only work on its front arc.

That's a very small and limited area compared to the 180 degree coverage in either direction for all other ships.  The way to play around it is simple... don't be in its firing arc.  That's what the Punisher is supposed to do, right?  Punish.  Punish who exactly?  Anyone stupid enough to joust a heavy ordnance platform that's 80% weapons and 20% cockpit.

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8 hours ago, Princezilla said:

A lot of people have suggested reenforce as a way to help it's durability issues particularly after the new Wookie ship and I agree that it is definitely a thematically appropriate solution though there is a bit of an issue with how it plays with fire arcs and I don't think that just giving it one for free with no trigger is the right way to go.

Agreed. But that's then just a question of "how much should it cost" and/or "how restrictive is the trigger".

I agree that mandating you can only place it on the 'in arc' side makes sense - as noted, the punisher is all about head-on attack runs. Maybe 'straight maneuvers'?

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