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RufusDaMan

Has powercreep in other factions snuck up behind the Imperials?

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A few points I would like to make:

- A crutch is to help you overcome a handicap: X7 and the Emperor were not a crutch anymore than deadeye on a jumpmaster was a crutch or an unlimited use of Zuckuss; they were simply too good to pass up.  That's why they were everywhere.

- If it feels as though a ship type can never win no matter the configuration, synergy or how hard a player tries to figure it out, then it's likely in need of a buff (Tie Punisher).

- If a combination of upgrades makes it that a palyer is in a favorable matchup a large percentage of the time, then it might eventually get hit by a nerf (see Deadeye on a jumpmaster).

- If winning with a squad is a challenge and often accomplished by forethough, strategy and intimate knowledge then congratulations; the squad is exactly where it should be.

 

Last small tournament that I went to, the opponent I faced in the finals had Quickdraw, Duchess and the Emperor on an upsilon shuttle and had won both matches 100 to 0. He knew what he was doing (or everyone else underestimated him, take your pick).  I defeated him with a pair of IG-88 and it was a very hard fought match.  The Emperor felt pretty balanced there.

Edited by dotswarlock

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Oh I would definitely errata Sabine if I was in charge of the world... but I'm not.

Your upgrade bar gains the bomb upgrade icon.   Action: Once per round, before a friendly bomb token is removed, choose 1 enemy ship at Range 1 of that token. That ship suffers 1 damage.

However the statement that 'only Rebels got Ordnance' when actually most of the ordnance is being flung by Scum and all you really meant is 'the Rebels got Sabine' was a bit misleading.

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2 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Oh I would definitely errata Sabine if I was in charge of the world... but I'm not.

Your upgrade bar gains the bomb upgrade icon.   Action: Once per round, before a friendly bomb token is removed, choose 1 enemy ship at Range 1 of that token. That ship suffers 1 damage.

However the statement that 'only Rebels got Ordnance' when actually most of the ordnance is being flung by Scum and all you really meant is 'the Rebels got Sabine' was a bit misleading.

That is so much worse. You can abuse the **** out of that.

My PS2 ship with Sabine moves and declares this as it's action. I pick a ship at range 1 of a bomb token that is yet to move. It moves very far away. I then fly my higher PS ship directly over that token, causing the ship I chose to suffer 1 damage.

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2 minutes ago, Stevey86 said:

That is so much worse. You can abuse the **** out of that.

My PS2 ship with Sabine moves and declares this as it's action. I pick a ship at range 1 of a bomb token that is yet to move. It moves very far away. I then fly my higher PS ship directly over that token, causing the ship I chose to suffer 1 damage.

I think you're misunderstanding the change.  Sabine's ability doesn't change at all, I just added that it takes an action to make it active for the turn.  You don't choose the ship you're targeting until the bomb token is removed - it's right there in the text "before a bomb token is removed choose a ship at range 1 of that token".

Edited by SOTL

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1 minute ago, SOTL said:

I think you're misunderstanding the change.  Sabine's ability doesn't change at all, I just added that it takes an action to make it active for the turn.  You don't choose the ship you're targeting until the bomb token is removed.

Yeah... the wording on Sabine really doesn't lend itself to being an action. For the amount of times it wouldn't trigger, that would just make Sabine a dead card.

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3 minutes ago, Stevey86 said:

Yeah... the wording on Sabine really doesn't lend itself to being an action. For the amount of times it wouldn't trigger, that would just make Sabine a dead card.

Well I think she deserves a pretty hard nerf.  I'd go for making her ability an action, or making it discard on use.  

If she was discard on use she'd still see play - it's a combination Crack Shot & bomb slot which is fine for 2pts... she'd still be better than half the crew in the game!

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2 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

The first of these qualities is the way one of the most prominent Empire lists, the Aces, win. Since they rely on green dice and damage mitigation through tokens, it is entirely possible to win a tough game by not loosing any ships. Its simply the way they play. A 1 health Inquisitor still has access to PTL, the title, and its amazing dial. It doesn't lose anything in offense, and still as much of a threat. Getting an inquisitor to 1 health might have been the result of 3 or 4 good attack rolls, mostly evaded. Still, at the end of the day, the result is 100/0, and the Empire wins. That, if happens many times, looks powerful. People start saying "Man, I can't kill these Imperial aces, they are invulnerable". Now, in reality, those games might have been balanced. I'm just saying that because of the green dice defense, the Empire either wins big, or loses big. And if it wins, it is very very obvious from the final result.

 

The second quality is the "villainness" of the faction. They are the bad guys, and at the end of the day... they are not supposed to win. I believe FFG is very conscious about releasing Imperial cards and pilots specifically because of this. It's not that they don't want good imperial ships, it's that they really don't want too good imperial ships... Moreso than too good rebel or scum ships.

I complained about green dice awhile ago.   IIRC, I was shouted down at the time:

I do also think that the "villains" are under-represented.  We have pretty much ALL the Rebel heroes in the game, but far less Imperials.  Where's Thrawn, the other Inquisitors, and many other commanders?

 

1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

I see it as that Imperial Aces (Soontir Fel type ships) were the mainstay of the Imperials for a very long time.   You had Tie Swarms and Soontir Fel.  The Tie Phantom reigned supreme for a while, but was finally nerfed.   The idea of untouchable aces were some of the few powerful themes.  FFG built on that and added in things that helped it.  Stealth Device was there as well as Royal Guard title.  Autothrusters brought them back when turrets were strong.  Palpatine was added.  Overall, the idea of untouchable arc dodgers was the main theme for a long time. 

What I see is that the Imperials need to have a different concept than untouchable ships.  

^This.  It goes back to the "not another TIE!!" complaint I have.  TIEs are going to be light-weight arc dodgers with green dice.  The Imps could use a good combat shuttle (read: large base ship), an effective ordnance carrier (I mean seriously, GUNBOAT for crying out loud), and a new game mechanic (boarding, anyone?).

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Just now, SOTL said:

Well I think she deserves a pretty hard nerf.  I'd go for making her ability an action, or making it discard on use.  

If she was discard on use she'd still see play - it's a combination Crack Shot & bomb slot which is fine for 2pts... she'd still be better than half the crew in the game!

The first time a friendly bomb token is removed each round:
If it was a "reveal" bomb, you must choose 1 ship at Range 1 of that token; That ship suffers 1 damage.
If it was an "action" bomb, the ship that overlapped it must suffer 1 damage.

This does 3 things:
You can no longer pick and chose the bomb.
You can no longer pass off auto-damage to innocent bystanders.
It affects your own ships.

It's still just as effective as before, but is much less gamey. THIS is what Sabine needs.

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2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

No none at all.

Except the finals of UK nationals last year.

And the only imperial list in the top 16 at worlds this year.

Phantoms are fine.

Ok, I was looking at this years worlds.

Edited by william1134

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1 hour ago, Stevey86 said:

The first time a friendly bomb token is removed each round:
If it was a "reveal" bomb, you must choose 1 ship at Range 1 of that token; That ship suffers 1 damage.
If it was an "action" bomb, the ship that overlapped it must suffer 1 damage.

This does 3 things:
You can no longer pick and chose the bomb.
You can no longer pass off auto-damage to innocent bystanders.
It affects your own ships.

It's still just as effective as before, but is much less gamey. THIS is what Sabine needs.

For reference I'm pretty sure it already is the first bomb that explodes in a round. You may note that Sabine is not an optional ability (there is no 'may') so the first time a bomb goes it seems you must use her then.

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3 minutes ago, nigeltastic said:

For reference I'm pretty sure it already is the first bomb that explodes in a round. You may note that Sabine is not an optional ability (there is no 'may') so the first time a bomb goes it seems you must use her then.

Nah, its a "once per round", you get to choose when to use that opportunity. Just like Palp is a "once per round", he doesn't have to be used on the first die roll.

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1 minute ago, kris40k said:

Nah, its a "once per round", you get to choose when to use that opportunity. Just like Palp is a "once per round", he doesn't have to be used on the first die roll.

This isn't a good analogy. Palpatine says 'you may'. Once per round is a limitation not a timing.

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The meta has always cycled between dominant factions and as an empire player I gotta say they have been on top more often then not. Initially TIE swarm reigned supreme, phantoms were borderline unbeatable for a while and most recently Palp aces ruled the meta since the raider was released. By comparison Rebels had a period of dominance with fat turrets for a while then another brief one with rebel regen and scum didn't really see much competitive play until the jumpmaster and following releases rocketed them up in effectiveness and now they are top dog. Empire is far from unplayable right now though people are just used to flying untouchable with Fel and the like and need to adjust to the changing scene.

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6 minutes ago, nigeltastic said:

This isn't a good analogy. Palpatine says 'you may'. Once per round is a limitation not a timing.

True that, but Sabine says "before a friendly bomb token is removed" (emphais mine), which reads that if there is multiple friendly bomb tokens in play you can choose which one triggers it, as there is nothing stating that you must use it on the first bomb token removed.

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6 minutes ago, nigeltastic said:

This isn't a good analogy. Palpatine says 'you may'. Once per round is a limitation not a timing.

It doesn't tend to get enforced. Technically if it hasn't been used already, it must be used the last time a friendly bomb token is removed.

But in practice, (assuming there are no reveal bombs on the board), you might not always know if more are going to be triggered.

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3 minutes ago, kris40k said:

True that, but Sabine says "before a friendly bomb token is removed" (emphais mine), which reads that if there is multiple friendly bomb tokens in play you can choose which one triggers it, as there is nothing stating that you must use it on the first bomb token removed.

But that's not how rules systems work, that's too 'human' of an interpretation. This is the same sort of issue people had with the accuracy corrector and hot shot copilot interaction. As a human you may see multiple bombs and know that there exist more than 1 opportunity for the ability to trigger but that's not how a rule system works. Rules are like computers; they operate 1 thing at a time and are bad at context. Every time a bomb token would be removed the game checks Sabine's ability. If it has not been applied this round it is applied. If it has been applied this round nothing happens.

The game can't know "oh I'm going to drop a Connor net onto that ship with Miranda this turn so I'll wait on firing Sabine's ability". The reason Palpatine works fine is because before every friendly die roll it checks if you choose to use his optional ability. By default humans shortcut to "no" unless otherwise stated but the game triggers that opportunity before every die roll.

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1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

I do also think that the "villains" are under-represented.  We have pretty much ALL the Rebel heroes in the game, but far less Imperials.  Where's Thrawn, the other Inquisitors, and many other commanders?

 


I would assume they are all off commanding the bridges of capital ships, or in the case of commanders like Thrawn, commanding entire fleets.

IE, they aren't wasting their time or risking their life participating in tiny skirmishes between dogfighters.    It's the same reason we don't have Mon Mothma, or Admiral Ackbar, and the same reason that characters like Tarkin, Reikaan, and Dodonna are Epic Only.

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21 minutes ago, nigeltastic said:

But that's not how rules systems work, that's too 'human' of an interpretation. This is the same sort of issue people had with the accuracy corrector and hot shot copilot interaction. As a human you may see multiple bombs and know that there exist more than 1 opportunity for the ability to trigger but that's not how a rule system works. Rules are like computers; they operate 1 thing at a time and are bad at context. Every time a bomb token would be removed the game checks Sabine's ability. If it has not been applied this round it is applied. If it has been applied this round nothing happens.

The game can't know "oh I'm going to drop a Connor net onto that ship with Miranda this turn so I'll wait on firing Sabine's ability". The reason Palpatine works fine is because before every friendly die roll it checks if you choose to use his optional ability. By default humans shortcut to "no" unless otherwise stated but the game triggers that opportunity before every die roll.

Yeah, you right. Cheer! :)

 

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29 minutes ago, nigeltastic said:

But that's not how rules systems work, that's too 'human' of an interpretation. This is the same sort of issue people had with the accuracy corrector and hot shot copilot interaction. As a human you may see multiple bombs and know that there exist more than 1 opportunity for the ability to trigger but that's not how a rule system works. Rules are like computers; they operate 1 thing at a time and are bad at context. Every time a bomb token would be removed the game checks Sabine's ability. If it has not been applied this round it is applied. If it has been applied this round nothing happens.

The game can't know "oh I'm going to drop a Connor net onto that ship with Miranda this turn so I'll wait on firing Sabine's ability". The reason Palpatine works fine is because before every friendly die roll it checks if you choose to use his optional ability. By default humans shortcut to "no" unless otherwise stated but the game triggers that opportunity before every die roll.

And now I have another card to file in the "FFG could have worded this better" pile. :P

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28 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


I would assume they are all off commanding the bridges of capital ships, or in the case of commanders like Thrawn, commanding entire fleets.

IE, they aren't wasting their time or risking their life participating in tiny skirmishes between dogfighters.    It's the same reason we don't have Mon Mothma, or Admiral Ackbar, and the same reason that characters like Tarkin, Reikaan, and Dodonna are Epic Only.

Fluff-wise, fine, but we all know gameplay>>>>>fluff.  People want to field the iconic characters.  Moreover, Fourth Brother and Seventh Sister were after the crew of the Ghost, and Krennic was right there with Jyn.  So, still plenty of Famous Imps to be had.

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Imperials are kind of like the shooty lists in 40k (back in 5th edition, I have no idea how they are now). When the meta and the game revolved around a lot of shooting their games were good, once that was not the case they get annihilated, there is no in-between. 

That being said Imperials are the Arc Dodging faction and no other faction (until Fen Rau) did it better. So when Arc dodging was the top meta they did great at it. When it isn't the case they just all die faster than Death Stars. 

Imperials now need to find something other than 3 ship High Pilot skill arc dodging Ace lists. Thing is you don't see many Imperial lists like that because they used to do it so well they really didn't need anything else. Well now they do, problem is on what other things they can do well the two other factions seem to do it better, even Arc Dodging.

As I said before the meta today has some striking comparisons with the meta of Wave 5. I don't think it was a mere coincidence that an updated version of the old RAC-Whisper list from Wave 5 made it into the Top Cut. I think if Imperials want to find a tournament list for the modern meta, looking at builds from Wave 5 and figuring out how to update them would be the place to start.

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4 hours ago, nigeltastic said:

But that's not how rules systems work, that's too 'human' of an interpretation. This is the same sort of issue people had with the accuracy corrector and hot shot copilot interaction. As a human you may see multiple bombs and know that there exist more than 1 opportunity for the ability to trigger but that's not how a rule system works. Rules are like computers; they operate 1 thing at a time and are bad at context. Every time a bomb token would be removed the game checks Sabine's ability. If it has not been applied this round it is applied. If it has been applied this round nothing happens.

The game can't know "oh I'm going to drop a Connor net onto that ship with Miranda this turn so I'll wait on firing Sabine's ability". The reason Palpatine works fine is because before every friendly die roll it checks if you choose to use his optional ability. By default humans shortcut to "no" unless otherwise stated but the game triggers that opportunity before every die roll.

I brought this up in the UK FB group.

People aren't happy. lol

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9 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Yes, we've uncovered FFG's sinister and intentional plot to ruin one of the three factions in their biggest product.  FFG has much to gain by making Imperial unplayable, upsetting about a third of the playerbase, fueling whine-fest after whine-fest on their forums to dissuade potential new players, and make everyone disinclined to purchase the giant inventory of Imperial ships that exists.

Well, technical they made about $200 from me with that shift, when I had to buy into scum to maintain my favorite playstyle: Aces + Support. ;-)
If we see a Sabine, K-Wing, Miranda and Scum TLT nerf, while imperial bombers become great and imperial Quad TLTs replace the scum and rebel once … you should indeed cry foul. 

For now, it's just healthy marketing via game design. ;-)

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6 hours ago, kris40k said:

Nah, its a "once per round", you get to choose when to use that opportunity. Just like Palp is a "once per round", he doesn't have to be used on the first die roll.

There you go, she should be 2 crew slots (she's put on some weight now that she's famous and eating lots of cake) and cost 8 points.

Done. Fixed.

???

 

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After a game tonight I have to say once again, triple imp aces are still one of the hardest if not THE hardest matchups in xwing for me as a jousting player.

The combination of high ps, high agility, arc dodging, and defensive modifiers is just brutal. And many can hit pretty hard as well.

I mentioned in another thread that I'm fine with nerfing some of the top ships and upgrades, but please don't buff aces.

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