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RufusDaMan

Has powercreep in other factions snuck up behind the Imperials?

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I have a feeling that the Empire has a few peculiar qualities that make them more susceptible to nerfs, and developers are less eager to buff them because of those qualities. I do not have a sound evidence to back this up, this is all just me theorizing.
Nevertheless, due to these qualities, according to my theory, the Empire got the worse end of the last few releases, and that could go largely unnoticed because of the crutches we had (Palpatine, X7). Now that they are gone, we've got nothing to show, and the powercreep snuck up behind us.

 

The first of these qualities is the way one of the most prominent Empire lists, the Aces, win. Since they rely on green dice and damage mitigation through tokens, it is entirely possible to win a tough game by not loosing any ships. Its simply the way they play. A 1 health Inquisitor still has access to PTL, the title, and its amazing dial. It doesn't lose anything in offense, and still as much of a threat. Getting an inquisitor to 1 health might have been the result of 3 or 4 good attack rolls, mostly evaded. Still, at the end of the day, the result is 100/0, and the Empire wins. That, if happens many times, looks powerful. People start saying "Man, I can't kill these Imperial aces, they are invulnerable". Now, in reality, those games might have been balanced. I'm just saying that because of the green dice defense, the Empire either wins big, or loses big. And if it wins, it is very very obvious from the final result.

 

The second quality is the "villainness" of the faction. They are the bad guys, and at the end of the day... they are not supposed to win. I believe FFG is very conscious about releasing Imperial cards and pilots specifically because of this. It's not that they don't want good imperial ships, it's that they really don't want too good imperial ships... Moreso than too good rebel or scum ships.
I mean, to see FFG's reluctance in giving out power to Imperials, there is no need to look further than the K-wing and the Punisher. They are twin releases, supposed to fill the same role, and were likely developed in the same time. I think it is entirely likely that the K-wings turned out to be a bit more powerful than intended, and the Punishers a bit less so. I don't think the designers purposefully made such a bad ship, and I can imagine a bit of oversight on both ends. However, even a blind man can see that the two ships are not supposed to be equals. The K-wing is clearly superior in every way imaginable, in slots, maneuverability and pilot abilities. I mean, can you look at Miranda's ability and think that is not one of the bests in the game? Especially with a PWT.

 

Now to my next point: Powercreep. It happens in every game, it is unavoidable. Powercreep in Xwing comes in 2 major forms in my opinion, both are well known in the forums as "Red dice creep" and "Dial creep". None of these phenomena is really observable on Imperial ships. Red dice is generally something that we see little of in the Empire, and even if we get a usable ship with 3 red dice, it is rare that we have the upgrade slots to pair them with. The only newer releases with 2+ attack are the Striker and Upsilon, with an honorable mention to SF Tie. All have their attack values justified by their role, and none of them have Fenn Rau like bonuses to attack. (in short, they are not bomb carriers with a 3 primary... looking at you Scurrg)
Dial creep also avoided us, and we only ever see the dark side of it. I think in today's imperial roster, the only ship that could be accused of this is the Tie Adv. Prototype, but then again, I just think the normal TIE advanced is lackluster rather than the Prototype OP.

 

Finally, the taking away of the crutches. We have relied on Palpatine and X7 a bit, and apparently this have been calculated into the releases we have been getting. The last two waves have been lackluster. The TIE SF promotes a different playstyle for the faction and may be the herald of things to come, but it doesn't feel to me like the grand new thing. It just feels unimperial. The Striker is great and cheap, but the pilot abilities (and their PS) feels like FFG was trying to play it safe. Meanwhile the Protectorate, the Shadowcaster, Sabine's TIE and the ARC-170 have all pretty much became staples of their respective faction.

And now, our crutches are taken away, we are standing here lame. And what shall the next release bring us? A new heavy hitter toolbox with a cheap cost and ALL the upgrades? No. A defensive tank that brings something entirely new into the game? no. What we get is an imperial Y wing. I really hope we get something Great in pilot abilities AND the dial, otherwise I don't think we'll see the imperials coming back for a while.


TL;DR: FFG doesn't want Imperials to be too strong and they have been excluded from the really good stuff in the last few releases, while the other factions got staples and scum even got 2 of their 3 best ships. After the nerf we have very little to rely on.

 

 

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I think the imperials were nerfed a little too hard.

 

Palpy is difficult to use.

Mostly however I think that the Phantom really loses his edge with the de-cloak being the very first thing, basically means you cant arch dodge anymore.    Phantom's are not any tournaments anymore..

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I see it as that Imperial Aces (Soontir Fel type ships) were the mainstay of the Imperials for a very long time.   You had Tie Swarms and Soontir Fel.  The Tie Phantom reigned supreme for a while, but was finally nerfed.   The idea of untouchable aces were some of the few powerful themes.  FFG built on that and added in things that helped it.  Stealth Device was there as well as Royal Guard title.  Autothrusters brought them back when turrets were strong.  Palpatine was added.  Overall, the idea of untouchable arc dodgers was the main theme for a long time. 

The problem came up with these arc dodgers just destroyed Jousting in the game.  There were a lot of people that ended up missing that aspect of the game.    It turned into a few high PS aces arc dodging and the PS war was strong.  At this point, it limited what FFG could do as  you can't make Soontir Fel more powerful than he was.  

FFG has made a lot of attempts to bring Jousting back into the game.   Look at the Fang Fighter and Fenn Rau.  Look at all the bonuses you get for putting ships in your firing arc.   Look at all the efforts to remove arc dodgers from the game.   I'm thinking of Black Market Slicer Tools, TLT's and a number of things.  Also throw in the Emperor nerf.  You can't have high PS Arc Dodgers be too strong or you remove Jousting from the game.   People like jousting.  I don't think that Soontir is dead or has to be, but he can't be all that he used to be.  

What I see is that the Imperials need to have a different concept than untouchable ships.  They need to move away from Soontir Fel and /x7 Defenders.  We don't have anything recognized yet as something that can fill the role.    I think Tie Aggressor with TLT will help fill in some spots in lists that would make other aspects worthwhile.   It looks like they are going to do a number of things for the Tie Punisher and maybe....just maybe...it might be worth it.   If you get the ability to drop bombs before the game starts and some cheap upgrades to make it more combat worthy, then it might see play.  

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19 minutes ago, william1134 said:

I think the imperials were nerfed a little too hard.

 

Palpy is difficult to use.

Mostly however I think that the Phantom really loses his edge with the de-cloak being the very first thing, basically means you cant arch dodge anymore.    Phantom's are not any tournaments anymore..

No none at all.

Except the finals of UK nationals last year.

And the only imperial list in the top 16 at worlds this year.

Phantoms are fine.

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21 minutes ago, SOTL said:

As a dedicated Imperial player I have to say there's an incredible amount of ***-hurt Imperial players around at the moment.

 

hurt is a bit much imho, complaining is more apt and understandably so.

Imps has two ships that are viable at the moment, and those ships are in turn hard-countered by the top-list archetypes - of the other two factions.

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2 minutes ago, Keffisch said:

hurt is a bit much imho, complaining is more apt and understandably so.

Imps has two ships that are viable at the moment, and those ships are in turn hard-countered by the top-list archetypes - of the other two factions.

Which is Phantom and Decimator, that made Top-16 of Worlds?

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3 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

No none at all.

Except the finals of UK nationals last year.

And the only imperial list in the top 16 at worlds this year.

Phantoms are fine.

Indeed, Phantoms are arguably better off than most glass cannon imperial aces because they have a chance to dodge PS2 Wardens from murdering them with Cluster Mines before they move.

Imperials have basically two viable list archetypes right now though - Deci/Ace and some mix of /sfs, defenders, and possibly a pocket ace.

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To answer the original question: it didn't sneak up behind the imperials; it happened right in their face.  

I still play imps from time to time, so whatevs. I like all factions. 

43 minutes ago, SOTL said:

As a dedicated Imperial player I have to say there's an incredible amount of ***-hurt Imperial players around at the moment.

 

Almost as many as the the rebel players crying about the x/7 "crutch" (while building Biggs and stresshog lists). 

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10 minutes ago, Djaskim609 said:

Almost as many as the the rebel players crying about the x/7 "crutch" (while building Biggs and stresshog lists). 

This gets a high five as well as a like. Kettle meet pot.

 

I'd add the scum whining was pretty epic too. Rebels are kind of crappy in terms of equality but scum went from under dogs to kings pretty much with one ship and many cried about balance before that, this isn't balance this is product shift.

Edited by LordFajubi

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1 hour ago, LordFajubi said:

Imperials were strong, it's not just power creep but power shaft. Other factions get upgrade after upgrade imps had their upgrades nerfed. It's getting stupidly obvious what they are doing.

Yes, we've uncovered FFG's sinister and intentional plot to ruin one of the three factions in their biggest product.  FFG has much to gain by making Imperial unplayable, upsetting about a third of the playerbase, fueling whine-fest after whine-fest on their forums to dissuade potential new players, and make everyone disinclined to purchase the giant inventory of Imperial ships that exists.

By jove, you've uncovered their evil plans!  Good work!



SPOILER ALERT: Game balance is incredibly difficult to maintain, especially as the amount of options available increases.  There has never been a point in X-Wing's history where the meta was evenly balanced between all two (or three) factions.  Typiclally there's a faction on the bottom.  It just so happens that thanks to Miranda-bombs and Scum Supremacy in Efficiency Imperials are, for the first time in a very long time, down at the bottom.  I know this is frustrating and obnoxious for you Imp players, but realize that this has been happening to Rebels/Scum for most of the past few waves, so please don't think that now just because your special Imperial snowflake is not at the top of the meta it means that it's a clear and compelling proof that FFG has an intentional desire to make Imperials bad..... wtf??

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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2 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Yes, we've uncovered FFG's sinister and intentional plot to ruin one of the three factions in their biggest product.  FFG has much to gain by making Imperial unplayable, upsetting about a third of the playerbase, fueling whine-fest after whine-fest on their forums to dissuade potential new players, and make everyone disinclined to purchase the giant inventory of Imperial ships that exists.

By jove, you've uncovered their evil plans!  Good work!

Ya know if you grow up things might not go over your head so much. What they are doing is making imps **** so they can shift tournament players to buy the new hotness. Imps were very hot, now scum is, rebs will likely be next. A lot of tournament players buy what they need not complete sets. I own all three factions and nerfs never deter me from buying what I want. I don't play tournaments and I don't care what they nerf I play it the way it was written on my tables, unless like the scyk it was a wording that always should have been. Thanks for trying to look cute though it was worth a laugh.

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Heh. Rather than conspiracy, imps are getting the shaft because of red dice explosion. 

When I first started, everyone said ordinance was worthless. FFG buffed ordinance. 

Plus, some ships can throw serious red dice: Fenn (i love him, but he's a monster [a squishy monster]), Rey + Poe +expertise, etc OR can do autodamage or defesne-less damage rolls: BMST, bombs, sabine, autoblaster, etc. 

Imps don't have the ships that can efficiently fight in this meta. Maybe. 

Sf's are still the ****. And x/7's are still good and the D's probably need some use. 

Edited by Djaskim609
gn.

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6 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

Ya know if you grow up things might not go over your head so much. What they are doing is making imps **** so they can shift tournament players to buy the new hotness. Imps were very hot, now scum is, rebs will likely be next. A lot of tournament players buy what they need not complete sets. I own all three factions and nerfs never deter me from buying what I want. I don't play tournaments and I don't care what they nerf I play it the way it was written on my tables, unless like the scyk it was a wording that always should have been. Thanks for trying to look cute though it was worth a laugh.

But this doesn't make sense...??  Imps are 33% of future releases, so it's in their interest to have all factions viableI guess it'd be different if you were saying that FFG was intentionally making old ships bad so people had to use new ships, but (1) that's not your claim nor (2) is it the case, since we're seeing ships that are several waves old still at the top (Quads? Upsilons?  Rebel TIEs? LOL.)


Game balance is hard to maintain, especially as the number of options increases.  There has never been a point in X-Wing's five-year history where there was a parity between all two (or three) factions.  It just so happens that now, for the first time in a long time, Imperials happen to be the faction on the bottom.  Yea, it sucks.  But it's not some intentional plot by FFG to ruin Imperials (they have literally nothing to gain from an unbalanced product), it's just a result of design mistakes and the imperfections that make balancing such a large game an impossibility in reality.  I'm sure if they could FFG would have all three factions and all 50+ ships from all waves be competitive, but that's a very tall order and well beyond their capabilities (and possibly any mortal's abilities).

 

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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Despair not Imperial players. Thou art destined to suffer greatly it is true.
But mark my words, one day thine salvation shall descend from on high in a blaze of 5-winged, missile-loaded glory.
And dominion of this game shalt be yours from that day until the end of time.

All hail the mighty Gunboat. PEW PEW!

Edited by Stevey86

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38 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

But this doesn't make sense...??  Imps are 33% of future releases, so it's in their interest to have all factions viableI guess it'd be different if you were saying that FFG was intentionally making old ships bad so people had to use new ships, but (1) that's not your claim nor (2) is it the case, since we're seeing ships that are several waves old still at the top (Quads? Upsilons?  Rebel TIEs? LOL.)


Game balance is hard to maintain, especially as the number of options increases.  There has never been a point in X-Wing's five-year history where there was a parity between all two (or three) factions.  It just so happens that now, for the first time in a long time, Imperials happen to be the faction on the bottom.  Yea, it sucks.  But it's not some intentional plot by FFG to ruin Imperials (they have literally nothing to gain from an unbalanced product), it's just a result of design mistakes and the imperfections that make balancing such a large game an impossibility in reality.  I'm sure if they could FFG would have all three factions and all 50+ ships from all waves be competitive, but that's a very tall order and well beyond their capabilities (and possibly any mortal's abilities).

 

I do appoligize for being snarky I woke up in a mood this morning but my over all point is ffg is a business they will do what they have to to sell ships, ANY SHIPS, and shifting tournament balance is the easiest way to do that. People like me buy it all, many buy what they like, but a sizeable portion buy whats good period. Your points are valid though and I see your side of it.

Edited by LordFajubi

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3 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

I do appoligize for being snarky I woke up in a mood this morning but my over all point is ffg is a business they will do what they have to sell ships, ANY SHIPS, and shifting tournament balance is the easiest way to do that. People like me buy it all, many buy what they like, but a sizeable portion buy whats good period. Your points are valid though and I see your side of it.

I think you may be crediting FFG with more control over the game than they really have.

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12 minutes ago, Djaskim609 said:

Heh. Rather than conspiracy, imps are getting the shaft because of red dice explosion. 

When I first started, everyone said ordinance was worthless. FFG buffed ordinance

Plus, some ships can throw serious red dice: Fenn (i love him, but he's a monster [a squishy monster]), Rey + Poe +expertise, etc OR can do autodamage or defesne-less damage rolls: BMST, bombs, sabine, autoblaster, etc. 

Imps don't have the ships that can efficiently fight in this meta. Maybe. 

Sf's are still the ****. And x/7's are still good and the D's probably need some use. 

I'll add a mild but needed correction sir: "everyone said ordinance was worthless. FFG buffed REBEL ordinance."

All factions received Extra Munitions, but the Rebels got Advanced SLAM (an Imperial design) and Sabine Wren (Imperial trained).

A bit one sided????

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2 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I'll add a mild but needed correction sir: "everyone said ordinance was worthless. FFG buffed REBEL ordinance."

All factions received Extra Munitions, but the Rebels got Advanced SLAM (an Imperial design) and Sabine Wren (Imperial trained).

A bit one sided????

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that was referring to torps and missiles.

Pretty sure all factions can use Guidance Chips.

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1 minute ago, Stevey86 said:

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that was referring to torps and missiles.

Pretty sure all factions can use Guidance Chips.

Maybe, but I don't think so. Missiles and Torpedoes got time on the mats around here all the time, its bombs that never, ever got play.........until SLAM Sabine.

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23 minutes ago, SOTL said:

I think you may be crediting FFG with more control over the game than they really have.

Maybe then why the k wing shortages, not once but twice. Tlt and miranda caused that, the meta caused those 2 being heavily used. Meta also makes things sit if they are not viable and collect dust. Control may be a strong word but they strongly influence it. It's just good business, I can't fault them for it but I can still hate it ?

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