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Tupacca

Dengar & Ketsu or Asaj????

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Hi all, 

Having difficulty deciding which of the lists below to take to a local store champ.

Dengar, Expertise, K4, Punishing One (52)

Ketsu, VI, K4, Engine (46) (maybe gyroscopic and glitterstim instead of engine?)

Total 99

Dengar, Expertise, K4, Punishing One (52)

Asaj, PTL, Latts, Gyroscopic Targeting, Rigged Cargo Chute, Rigged Cargo Chute (46)     (Quite keen to try out the Rigged Cargo Chutes) 

Total 99

Fire away with your thoughts!

Edited by Tupacca

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Your second list is pretty spot on to what I use when I do Dengar + Lancer. Although I try to make room for the Title for Asajj when I can. 

The double rigged cargo chute is a lot of fun though. It can really frustrate aces that want to move all over the place, and limit there options for boosting/barrel rolling away. 

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I think you're better off going with Dengar and Asajj. You'll have a hard time putting together an effective list with Ketsu and Dengar as both are generally over the 50 pt mark to be effective. Ketsu supports a strong alpha strike along with her (ex: Bossk) because she's not as durable as Asajj. If Dengar can't be kitted out with Torpedoes, then you'll be putting Ketsu in situations where your trade that round won't be favorable that often. If I was your opponent, I'd have a harder time deciding on going after Dengar or Asajj where as Ketsu is an easier target to burn down quick. Also, as much as you want to try out Rigged Cargo Cute, cool, but I think having 1 Burnout SLAM instead of 2 Rigged Cargo Chutes will be better in the long run. 

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@RStan  Thanks, I agree that Ketsu presents the easier target. Am I correct in thinking that target priority will be difficult with Asaj/Dengar because Asaj tanks very well, and because Dengar can often get a modified revenge shot? Do you think advanced slam will be needed with her moving arc?

 

@Phanto Fiend My thoughts exactly, my hope is that it will punish bomb users and prevent advanced slams etc. 

Edited by Tupacca

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I would go:

Dengar w/ Expertise, K4, Title, Unhinged (53)

Ketsu w/ VI, K4, Gstim x2 (46)

Keep Ketsu alive by crashing their formation and bumping (use Gstim when you bump) and by tractoring small base ships onto rocks (bring big ones, space them about range 2 apart)

I placed 7th in a store championship this past wknd using a similar Ketsu with two TLT Thugs.       

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1 hour ago, Tupacca said:

@RStan  Thanks, I agree that Ketsu presents the easier target. Am I correct in thinking that target priority will be difficult with Asaj/Dengar because Asaj tanks very well, and because Dengar can often get a modified revenge shot? Do you think advanced slam will be needed with her moving arc?

Yeah the target priority becomes difficult and because you don't have a strong alpha strike and the Dengar Asajj list promotes a longer played game, then making your opponent's choice in the beginning of the game difficult is a good thing.

With how fast the Lancer can go, especially with the 3 speed greens, Burnout SLAM can get Asajj out of a bad situation if Dengar isn't around to help contribute shots or if you just need to disengage and setup another run. It's just another tool that is promoted by the using the ship itself because you're using PTL, which means you want to do greens, which are mostly 3 and Burnout SLAM will allow you to move another 3 speed to get out of something nasty. I think clogging up the field with 2 chutes might be a bit much when you have two big ships which, yes are some of the most maneuverable, but you may need the space in future turns. 

Edited by RStan

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22 hours ago, RStan said:

Yeah the target priority becomes difficult and because you don't have a strong alpha strike and the Dengar Asajj list promotes a longer played game, then making your opponent's choice in the beginning of the game difficult is a good thing.

With how fast the Lancer can go, especially with the 3 speed greens, Burnout SLAM can get Asajj out of a bad situation if Dengar isn't around to help contribute shots or if you just need to disengage and setup another run. It's just another tool that is promoted by the using the ship itself because you're using PTL, which means you want to do greens, which are mostly 3 and Burnout SLAM will allow you to move another 3 speed to get out of something nasty. I think clogging up the field with 2 chutes might be a bit much when you have two big ships which, yes are some of the most maneuverable, but you may need the space in future turns. 

Fair point. 

In terms of deployment do you have any advice? I was thinking of placing Asaj in the bottom right corner facing forward, and Dengar to her left facing towards the right board edge ready to turn left and follow Asaj up, eventually getting ready to turn in. 

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23 hours ago, Danomight said:

I would go:

Dengar w/ Expertise, K4, Title, Unhinged (53)

Ketsu w/ VI, K4, Gstim x2 (46)

Keep Ketsu alive by crashing their formation and bumping (use Gstim when you bump) and by tractoring small base ships onto rocks (bring big ones, space them about range 2 apart)

I placed 7th in a store championship this past wknd using a similar Ketsu with two TLT Thugs.       

Cool idea, I bet the TLT's ate through anything that got tractor beamed!

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45 minutes ago, Tupacca said:

Fair point. 

In terms of deployment do you have any advice? I was thinking of placing Asaj in the bottom right corner facing forward, and Dengar to her left facing towards the right board edge ready to turn left and follow Asaj up, eventually getting ready to turn in. 

I think deployment is really up to what works for you after trying some different types, but I don't think I would start with them too far apart. I like your "Dengar following Asajj" approach, but maybe Asajj deploys in the same corner and Dengar middle-ish depending on obstacles. That way you can go for either a follow up or if your opponent lines up opposite of Asajj, you can hard turn Dengar in the beginning and have him flank from the middle. If your opponent turns in on Dengar, they're likely pointing at Dengar's arc which is bad and have Asajj flanking them now. If the deploy opposite corner of Asajj, then do your standard "Dengar follows Asajj" and work it out from there. 

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I think it would be best to have Asajj in the far right corner having her auxiliary arc set to the left. She would ideally circle the fight from the outside. Dengar would deploy right next to her on the left while still clearing the closest obstacle.

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16 hours ago, RStan said:

I think deployment is really up to what works for you after trying some different types, but I don't think I would start with them too far apart. I like your "Dengar following Asajj" approach, but maybe Asajj deploys in the same corner and Dengar middle-ish depending on obstacles. That way you can go for either a follow up or if your opponent lines up opposite of Asajj, you can hard turn Dengar in the beginning and have him flank from the middle. If your opponent turns in on Dengar, they're likely pointing at Dengar's arc which is bad and have Asajj flanking them now. If the deploy opposite corner of Asajj, then do your standard "Dengar follows Asajj" and work it out from there. 

So I played two games last night V RAC, VI, Hotshot, Gunner, Kylo, Engine & Ryad, Juke, X7

Game 1:

Deployed Asaj in the far right corner facing forwards with Dengar just to her left ready to turn and follow her. I took two blinded pilots on Dengar but it cancelled my revenge shot so was able to shoot normally at least for a couple of turns. Dengar died early due to some poor evade dice, and I was left with a full health Asaj v 8 hull RAC and full health Ryad. In short, Asaj tanked like a boss and and managed to kill Rac in two turns leaving Asaj on 5 hull to take on full health Ryad. Asaj's stress ability came into her own and shut Ryad down - won 100-77. I learnt that against this RAC List you need to either stay at R3 with Dengar to avoid taking crits from RAC's ability or bump him and shoot something else (as he still gets his TL & Expertise). Asaj is pretty good whatever range against RAC.  

Game 2:

I deployed Asaj in the same place - and had Dengar more in the middle. I preferred this set up as it game me more options on how I wanted to engage. In short he jousted against Dengar and got blinded off again but I managed to sneak 3 damage though onto the defender with Dengar and Asaj combined. Next Turn the same happened with the blinded pilot but I outright killed Ryad as she bumped (no tokens) tyring to K behind Dengar. With no blinded pilots left RAC just started to bleed damage . . . won 100-0

 

 

Edited by Tupacca

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16 hours ago, Sixter said:

I think it would be best to have Asajj in the far right corner having her auxiliary arc set to the left. She would ideally circle the fight from the outside. Dengar would deploy right next to her on the left while still clearing the closest obstacle.

This setup worked very well. 

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Yeah against RAC, just skirt the range 3 band. Even if RAC closes range on Asajj since most RACs take Engine upgrade and move after Asajj, that means he's shooting at the tanky Asajj which leaves Dengar to do his thing. Great to see your first two games went well. 

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3 minutes ago, RStan said:

Yeah against RAC, just skirt the range 3 band. Even if RAC closes range on Asajj since most RACs take Engine upgrade and move after Asajj, that means he's shooting at the tanky Asajj which leaves Dengar to do his thing. Great to see your first two games went well. 

Cheers, the only disappointing thing was never getting the opportunity to drop the rigged cargo cute. Playing in a tournament this weekend so will try then . . .

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On 2017-05-15 at 10:59 AM, Tupacca said:

Dengar, Expertise, K4, Punishing One (52)

Asaj, PTL, Latts, Gyroscopic Targeting, Rigged Cargo Chute, Rigged Cargo Chute (46)     (Quite keen to try out the Rigged Cargo Chutes) 

Total 99

Fire away with your thoughts!

You need to trade one cargo chute on Asajj for Uninged astromec on Dengar IMO. It's K4 best friend. You could also remove the other cargo chute for a better chance at winning the bid. It's quite important for Dengar. You also probably dont need Gyroscopic Targeting if you have PTL. You rarely have to change arc when the caster is flown correctly (ie circling around).

Depending on the situation, the 5 speed maneuver + boost on a caster can be deadly for a surprise attack. Ive caught many opponent off guard with this combo. Finding a way to insert Engine Upgrade in your build is a pretty good idea.

As for you question regarding Asajj or Ketsu for partner, i think both are viable. Asajj is more defensive but you lose a bit of firepower. Ketsu is more offensive and since she's PS9 she can shoot before Dengar to debuff a target. I always love flying 2 ships with the same PS. It opens a much larger range of possible maneuvers when they are close to each other. But in the case of Dengar+caster, i prefer to field Asajj. IMO the tankiness + control is needed.

 

Edited by Thormind

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13 hours ago, Thormind said:

You need to trade one cargo chute on Asajj for Uninged astromec on Dengar IMO. It's K4 best friend. You could also remove the other cargo chute for a better chance at winning the bid. It's quite important for Dengar. You also probably dont need Gyroscopic Targeting if you have PTL. You rarely have to change arc when the caster is flown correctly (ie circling around).

Depending on the situation, the 5 speed maneuver + boost on a caster can be deadly for a surprise attack. Ive caught many opponent off guard with this combo. Finding a way to insert Engine Upgrade in your build is a pretty good idea.

As for you question regarding Asajj or Ketsu for partner, i think both are viable. Asajj is more defensive but you lose a bit of firepower. Ketsu is more offensive and since she's PS9 she can shoot before Dengar to debuff a target. I always love flying 2 ships with the same PS. It opens a much larger range of possible maneuvers when they are close to each other. But in the case of Dengar+caster, i prefer to field Asajj. IMO the tankiness + control is needed.

 

Hi Thormind, 

Thanks for your suggestions, I had actually included Unhinged Astromech in the list but forgot to add it to my post. Like you say, the synergy between UA and K4 is great. 

In terms of the engine upgrade v Gyroscopic debate, I tend to lean towards the latter mainly because It frees me up to evade + Focus or TL  in one round when necessary. I've also found that the gyroscopic is more than sufficient to keep things in arc - and helps with bluffing your movement. I do agree thought that the 5 forward and boost would catch people off guard, but think it may be more useful on Ketsu as he relies on being at R1 to proc his ability. Perhaps its just my play style that suits Gyroscopic - I love the action efficiency that this load out produces too. 3 actions + a pseudo action (Evade generated by Latts) a turn is really satisfying. 

I also lean more towards Asaj as a wing mate as it presents tough target priority - shoot the tank or shoot the ship that can double tap. Which combined with the added stress control is immense. 

Thanks!

 

 

 

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I know everyone really likes the Asajj/Latts combo but I want to try the triple action PtL/K4 combo on Asajj. The upside is that you can still take evade as an action for some tankiness and you are not relieving your opponent of stress. In some cases you are actually gaining extra durability by taking the evade because you are not able to stress every turn because you need to be within range 1-2 and have the opponent in the auxiliary arc. If Asajj has TL/focus for offense every turn she can really punish the opponent for going for Dengar first. I think Dengar is happy if the opponent goes for Asajj first so I figure you have to provide two real offensive threats to make the choice difficult.

I would like to try the following version myself:

Dengar/Expertise/Title/K4/Unhinged 53 pts

Asajj/PtL/K4/Engine 47 pts

Im giving Asajj engine upgrade to be able to circle on the outside without getting caught by blockers. This way both ships have reposition which is also kind of fun.

 

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14 minutes ago, Sixter said:

I know everyone really likes the Asajj/Latts combo but I want to try the triple action PtL/K4 combo on Asajj. The upside is that you can still take evade as an action for some tankiness and you are not relieving your opponent of stress. In some cases you are actually gaining extra durability by taking the evade because you are not able to stress every turn because you need to be within range 1-2 and have the opponent in the auxiliary arc. If Asajj has TL/focus for offense every turn she can really punish the opponent for going for Dengar first. I think Dengar is happy if the opponent goes for Asajj first so I figure you have to provide two real offensive threats to make the choice difficult.

I would like to try the following version myself:

Dengar/Expertise/Title/K4/Unhinged 53 pts

Asajj/PtL/K4/Engine 47 pts

Im giving Asajj engine upgrade to be able to circle on the outside without getting caught by blockers. This way both ships have reposition which is also kind of fun.

 

That's a good point. I think after I've play tested my current version I will give yours ago - definitely looks strong. 

 

Is initiative a big issue?

 

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You really want Unhinged on Dengar.

Dengar/Assaj is a really solid list, the core of it being Dengar/Expertise/P1/Unhinged/K4, and Assaj/PTL/Latts.  You have a chunk of points left to play with which can be spent as desired with a number of good options - I like Gyros on Assaj, a Debris Cloud somewhere, and a point or two of bid.

I've not run it with Ketsu purely because Ketsu's more expensive and really needs VI to shoot first but really *wants* PTL, so I think Assaj is the better wingman.  As regards the use of Latts crew, for my money she's absolutely indispensable.  Ketsu dies REALLY quickly without her benefits, much more so than Assaj does, so her benefit is really noticeable, and it means you can more of then use your actions to TL/focus as well if you're so inclined - but usually, out-tanking people is a better option anyway.

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On 2017-05-18 at 4:54 AM, Sixter said:

I know everyone really likes the Asajj/Latts combo but I want to try the triple action PtL/K4 combo on Asajj. The upside is that you can still take evade as an action for some tankiness and you are not relieving your opponent of stress. In some cases you are actually gaining extra durability by taking the evade because you are not able to stress every turn because you need to be within range 1-2 and have the opponent in the auxiliary arc. If Asajj has TL/focus for offense every turn she can really punish the opponent for going for Dengar first. I think Dengar is happy if the opponent goes for Asajj first so I figure you have to provide two real offensive threats to make the choice difficult.

I would like to try the following version myself:

Dengar/Expertise/Title/K4/Unhinged 53 pts

Asajj/PtL/K4/Engine 47 pts

Im giving Asajj engine upgrade to be able to circle on the outside without getting caught by blockers. This way both ships have reposition which is also kind of fun.

 

i like that.

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Thanks for all your suggestions so far. 

I played a further 3 games using the following list:

Dengar, Expertise, K4, Unhinged, Punishing One (53) & Asaj, PTL, Latts, Gyroscopic Targeting, Rigged Chute (45) Total = 98

I played against several iterations of Triple Imperial Aces, mainly Standard PTL Inqusitor, VI Vessery, VI Backdraft & Expertise Quickdraw. Basically lots of accurate 3 dice attacks.

My opponent is quite savvy and decided to clutter my right hand side of the board with asteroids each game to make it harder for Dengar and Asaj to turn in left as they moved up (as he knew I would likely deploy on the right). I deployed as normal with Asaj in the right hand corner facing forward, with Dengar just off to her left facing the same direction. During the first two games using this deployment I slow rolled which forced him to come across to me through the asteroids which suited me well, because when the engagement came he couldn't focus fire all three ships into one of mine. 

He went for Asaj first in both games which was a mistake as she tanked very very, allowing Dengar to get regular R1 fully modded shots. As they chased Asaj Dengar cleaned up.

In the third game the right hand side was far too dense with asteroids. I therefore deployed Asaj in the bottom left corner facing forwards, with Dengar to her right facing the right hand board egde - so he could straight and then either bank or turn in left. It worked quite well as an alternative set up. 

I learnt not to get Dengar into range of multiple ships as he DOES get burned down relatively quickly. Sometimes its best to try and bump a ship to deny a shot, or barrel role out of arc to deny a shot if possible (that much is probably obvious though . . .)

I'm quite happy how the list performs, but the obvious weakness are ships that deal stress, as well as Biggs (due to lack of munitions). Its a fun list though so not too worried about how well it fits into the current meta. 

I have considered removing the rigged cargo chute taking it down to 97. May help if I ever come up against the Dengar/Tel worlds list which is bound to be about. 

Cheers

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This thread has been great, I for one am running this list, it's a bare Asajj because she can still do her thing and is still dangerous with Dengar from the Worlds list with Tel Tevura.........I've flown Asajj a bunch and the jumpmaster some, have a few casual games in with Dengar paired with Asajj.  I am going for it at a Store Champ tomorrow.  The list is:


Asajj with Latts and PTL

Dengar with Expertise, Title, Unhinged, K4, Extra Munitions, Plasma Torps and Guidance Chips

 

Anyway, just another variation........thanks for the ideas on setup, etc.

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On 5/19/2017 at 11:31 AM, Tupacca said:

I learnt not to get Dengar into range of multiple ships as he DOES get burned down relatively quickly. Sometimes its best to try and bump a ship to deny a shot, or barrel role out of arc to deny a shot if possible (that much is probably obvious though . . .)

Yeah that's one of the strengths with the expertise/k4 Dengars. It is perfectly fine to bump, and probably encouraged in situations where you will be focus fired, because as long as you did a green and aren't stressed, you're getting target locks and able to change your offensive focus results. 

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I would go Dengar/Ketsu in this way:

Lancer-class Pursuit Craft: · Ketsu Onyo (38)
     Veteran Instincts (1)
     Engine Upgrade (4)
     K4 Security Droid (3)
     Glitterstim (2)
     Glitterstim (2)
JumpMaster 5000: · Dengar (33)
     Fearlessness (1)
     K4 Security Droid (3)
     · Punishing One (12)
     Unhinged Astromech (1)
-- TOTAL ------- 100p. --

 

In this configuration, Dengar is not so dependent about Expertise. K4+Uniged brings you TL most of the time, then you can just take your focus as a normal action and you will be fine. Fearlessness is here just because is pretty easy to take a face shoot with a Jumpmaster (PS9+b.roll) and it works expecially well with Dengar (face to face: will your opponent still shoot you back, triggering Dengar for a double Fearlessness attack?).

Otherwise you can just run A Score to Settle which will work in case you will bump or use a b-roll.

 

Then Ketsu becomes way more hard to focus her down! 2 Glitterstim improves a lot both her attack power AND (most of all) her survability. 2 agi with glitterstim for 2 turns will get her from ""squishy"" (for a large ship with no modifiers) to "that thing don't goes down". Plus, it works nice with Ketsu. In fact, EU....meh, I don't really like it on Ketsu, but I understand who will otherwise. The thing is that Ketsu WANTS to bump. She wants to ram her target! Her ability still works even touching, so you will just b.roll the ship away from you, then shoot it down. It works amazing with Glitterstim+K4 because you literally don't need to take any action for yourself. 

Oh and of course you will clean your stress easely thanks for the dial. You can bump anyone with any 3 move lenght.

So Engine Upgrade...it helps Ketsu to:

1) get faster to your objective. The thing is you have to wait Dengar, going 5 forward+boost is fascinating but wrong most of the time. Of course if you can get a Rau/Fel out of position it will works, but you can build your strategy hoping on your opponent's mistakes. 

2) Turn faster without koyo. And that is the only thing that I really get valuable. An hard+boost helps Ketsu to come back faster when the first joust is over. 

 

But in this list..eh...consider to switch EI with Expertise on Dengar. Depends which one is more comfy for you.

 

Edited by Cerve

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