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WGNF911

Rebel Bias?

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Ozzel really shines for ships that need to move and ships that go fast, then shunt speed. VSDs and INTs have no use for Ozzel. An ISD may have a use for him, but he's really there for things like Raiders (especially), ARQs, and GSDs. Perhaps flotillas. But when you consider Ozzel, you could also consider commanders that gurantee all crits, re-roll all ship dice, or make your ships a little tougher than your opponents. He's niche.

Meanwhile every rebel ship except their large bases has an evade token, and Mon Mothma allows you to disrupt the critical Screed exhausted to give his ship. Dodonna selects damage cards on asteroids. Rieekan allows any ship to survive to the end of the round. Cracken can help every Rebel ship except the Pelta and MC80.

 

Regarding squads, sure, there's Jendon allowing your favorite bomber squad to attack twice. But I point out Adar Tallon already does this for the Rebellion, moreover, he allows his toggled squadron to move if activated again. Empire has nothing on allowing up to three fighters to attack twice. Presuming all B-Wings with Norra standing behind them and clear of opposition, rolling perfectly three Yavaris B-Wings amass 18 damage, doing 6 points to the facing shield, when Yavaris activates. Which one of the six attacks should you use your brace token for, or should you do it before when Yavaris fires? How about if any of those B-Wings are special aces that do anything from re-rolling dice on a downed shield to Nym blasting away a defense token?

Empire may have good bombers, but the Rebels just do fighters better. I feel the only way for the Empire to really compete apart from trying to build a combination of aces (or Rhymerballs) is to throw Flight Controllers on VSDs/ISDs, take a bunch of TIE Interceptors with Mithel, and try to alpha strike the offending fighters to death. Or you have Mauler Mithel in there with a source of intel and/or Admiral Chiraneu. Of course, for that to work, you'll have to dig through a good combination of anti-fighter escorts the Rebellion has. This is also presuming Biggs isn't there, funneling damage to a YT-1300 sitting under Gallant Heaven and Jan Ors bracing extra damage down to 1 on the generic you just fired on. Or, of course, if the Rebel commander isn't Rieekan.

Yes, that's a lot in a list combination and it may not be in fact possible under a points limit. But that's just a string of tools available to a Rebel fighter player that they probably can afford because, in general, their capital ships are cheaper than the Empire's. Really Rhymer is the only standout all-attack trick the Empire has. Mithel is a runnerup because at least he doesn't have to work for his AoE.

...But, Rebels having great fighters is one of their factional "things". Same with small ships being good for them. Empire's supposed to be big ships with huge batteries and highly specialized fighters. Problem is, based on how the game's developed, players want more starships for activations, deployments, and massed attacks with big damage against single targets. Small ships and fighters do this the best, which is their specialty.

 

Things could swing back with Sloane, which is something I want to see. With her you can take Interceptors and TIEs, go alpha striking to clear out anyone not protected by Rieekan, and then any fighters left can mob ships. Sloane's accuracy to exhaust tokens and re-roll cancelling gives TIE fighters more of a chance to actually do something against capital ships that they never had before now. In fact until now, trying that was a liability because of how easy it was to sneeze on and destroy TIEs and score their 8 points.

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Great discussions and this thread is exactly why I really dig this community!  

Game design is an interesting thing.  I completely understand that each faction must have its own "flavor" otherwise it becomes red vs blue.  The Rebs have been a small ship fleet with great fighters/squadrons acting on initiative and creativity.  The Imps are the massive military machine with a tremendous military base.  That, IMHO, is where the designers may have missed something.  If anyone should have "cheaper" ships, it should be the Imps because of their industrial might.  I've played a game called MBT (Main Battle Tank) simulating WW3.  NATO vs Warsaw Pact.  In general, Soviet units were almost 3 times cheaper than US units.  In some cases, their stats were almost as good.  The US had better crews and equipment.  As the USSR, you were buying platoons while the US player was buying individual tanks.  The old Stalin idea that quantity had a quality all its own.  I would say that Imp units are overpriced by 3-10 points depending on the unit.  TIE fighters, bombers and interceptors should be 3 points cheaper.  ISD, VSD, maybe 10 points cheaper.  What I'm trying to say is there was some sort of formula/recipe applied to the generation of the unit (x points for y hull, z points for w shields) but no "historical" application for industrial capability was applied … IMHO.

BTW, with Hera's ability, Rebs have more rogues and the Rebs also have fewer heavies. 

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7 hours ago, Caldias said:

I think JJ, Screed, and ESPECIALLY Ozzel are very strong commanders.  Point for point I think Ozzel might be the best commander.

I disagree about Imperial squadrons somehow not being good against ships. As far as squadrons, Jendon is basically a better Yavaris, because the movement restriction is removed, but of course yes, lesser effect.  Jendon is the only strategic squadron that doesn't have to take a hit to attack economy.  Maarek automatically does at least one damage a turn, and almost always does two.  Rhymer is still amazing, and Imperials still have the cheapest bomber in the game, and way better ships to push them, as far as survivability and going to where your targets are.  They also have more, and better, rogues.  Sure, rebs are better all arounders.  But while gold squadron is awesome, you get Firesprays en mase if you want, and Defenders are still just all around awesome.  Yeah, Phantoms are lackluster, but so are E-Wings IMO, and Decimators are really great at anti squadron and anti ship.  Sure, some of the Rebels are really strong all arounders, but I cannot with a straight face say that somehow Imperial squadrons are lacking.

Point of order. The rebels still have the best rogue in the game; the YT-2400. The Impetial counterpart, the Agressor, is so outclassed it rarely even sees play. The YV-666, another of our rogues, was basically DOA. The Firespray is our only decent one, but I'd rather take YT's if given the choice.  On the flipside, our Rogue aces from R&V are better than theirs, which probably why Rogue Squadron, Corran, and Hera got introduced in CC while Imperials received no additional rogues.

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8 hours ago, Norsehound said:

Well... yes at a base Screed is guaranteeing a crit. You get the most mileage out of him if you have something depending on crits, but generally I'm presuming people default to Motti if they want no other commander in particular. Vader is there if you want to put some points into your commanders. Tarkin is basically obsolite with everyone buying Gozantis for Boosted comms. Tagge is MIA because his timing is just as lethal to him as it is to Garm. Konstantine would be okay if medium-large ships weren't actually vulnerable to smallarms fire.

I've used JJ on occasion, I just think he's better on basically every other ship than the Victory. Do you want your VSDs turning, or do you reely want a hyper-manuverable ISD-II, backed with Demolisher, and one or two Arquitens? All of those ships are faster than the VSD. Hyper-turning a speed 2 VSD feels like just deciding where you want to point your three red dice when chasing down fast moving ships. All I feel JJ does is allow the VSDs to use their front arcs for maybe a turn or two more than the would have otherwise. He does not patch the major deficiencies I see in large ships now. *shrug*

My initial point did not say you should run JJ with Vics so I don't know why you are fighting so hard on that point. JJ is amazing on Arqs, Glads, and Raiders, and I showed that in the Freshman Vassal tourny.

What he does do is allow Vics to be run more effectively since they can throw squad commands and get (II I) maneuver.  

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This is facinating and I find myself lost in the details of ship and personnel specifics as I am new to the game. I posted a similar concern last week on the forum and gauged some perspective. Due to the fact that I'm a novice, I rely on experts (you guys) as well as watching at my LGS to see trends. I've been talking to a few local players and the basic advice I'm getting was summed up by a local player I see all the time with Armada on his mat,  "Imperials are easier as a new player to grasp and win with; but when you get experienced, Rebels have the tools to win with amazing consistency. Imps can't get close to that, they're too clumsy." 

It was quite a deflating statement from a guy who seems to be very experienced.

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12 hours ago, Valca said:

Point of order. The rebels still have the best rogue in the game; the YT-2400. The Impetial counterpart, the Agressor, is so outclassed it rarely even sees play. The YV-666, another of our rogues, was basically DOA. The Firespray is our only decent one, but I'd rather take YT's if given the choice.  On the flipside, our Rogue aces from R&V are better than theirs, which probably why Rogue Squadron, Corran, and Hera got introduced in CC while Imperials received no additional rogues.

Other point of order.  Rogue is highly less valuable with the introduction of flotillas and relay, especially with the action economy Jendon provides.  Defenders are better in every way than a YT.  Rogue lists can work, but they aren't nearly as efficient as activated squadrons, and now with squadrons activating from wherever you want, Rogue's value is much lessened.  I agree back before CC and Wave V Imp squadrons were more specialized and therefore harder to find a balanced list for, but now, the Defender is THE best all around squadron in the game.  If YV-666 is dead on arrival, then why are B-Wings considered great? With the advent of RLB I think YVs are pretty great.  One more point than a B-Wing, and 1 slower, but 2 more hull and grit and rogue and way better anti squadron.

 I think Rogues have now, in general, seen their heyday.  Defender has easily replaced the YT as the benchmark squadron, in my opinion.

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12 hours ago, Valca said:

Point of order. The rebels still have the best rogue in the game; the YT-2400. The Impetial counterpart, the Agressor, is so outclassed it rarely even sees play. The YV-666, another of our rogues, was basically DOA. The Firespray is our only decent one, but I'd rather take YT's if given the choice.  On the flipside, our Rogue aces from R&V are better than theirs, which probably why Rogue Squadron, Corran, and Hera got introduced in CC while Imperials received no additional rogues.

If the aggressor was speed 4 it would be an amazing fighter at speed and I liked them compared to interceptors as they had better hull and a black antiship dice.

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11 hours ago, Green Knight said:

I mostly play Imperial.

I mostly win with Imperial.

Sometimes I play Rebel.

Sometimes I win with Rebel.

It feels like my winning chances are about the same, regardless of faction.

But then again I don't play at worlds, so what do I know.

Do you write the Captain Obvious commercials???  LOL  

I'm pretty sure you're not in the States so you might have to YouTube him to get that haha. 

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WGNF911, I am sorry mate but that is really a load of rubbish. I don't mean to offend.

Imperials get two the best ships in the game. ISD and Demolisher. The Arquitens is dam handy also. 

Imperial tactics are light fighters as AA and ships to hurt you. (and death starts to blow up your plant)

The Imperial scatter aces are simply pound for pound the best aces anti fighters in the game.

Lets also not forget Rhymer and Jonus. The many of the bounty hunters are great additions also.

 

Yes Rebels have a large number of bombers but dam are single red fickle. It is there strength and has been since wave 2.

Rebels have two large bases but according to the forums the Liberty is not worth much (I disagree I love it), I am failing to see the biases.  

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4 hours ago, Radaeon said:

WGNF911, I am sorry mate but that is really a load of rubbish. I don't mean to offend.

Imperials get two the best ships in the game. ISD and Demolisher. The Arquitens is dam handy also. 

Imperial tactics are light fighters as AA and ships to hurt you. (and death starts to blow up your plant)

The Imperial scatter aces are simply pound for pound the best aces anti fighters in the game.

Lets also not forget Rhymer and Jonus. The many of the bounty hunters are great additions also.

 

Yes Rebels have a large number of bombers but dam are single red fickle. It is there strength and has been since wave 2.

Rebels have two large bases but according to the forums the Liberty is not worth much (I disagree I love it), I am failing to see the biases.  

A few problems though. ISD is pretty good, but we didn't see it at the highest levels of competitive play because it still gets melted by bombers and can't shoot back at flotillas on the other side of the board.

Demo is obviously good, but has been the target of so much countering in the subsequent waves that it's not the legend it once was. Not to mention, Demo doesn't carry you to first place in a tournament anymore, but without it Imps would be out of the game. Same with Rhymer.

Some of the other squadrons you mentioned are not very useful. Those Imperial scatter aces that you called pound for pound the best anti squadron force? They still lose to Trench Buddy xwings and Jan. And even when they win, they can't take the fight to ships like the all purpose Rebels can. And the bounty hunters you mentioned don't see a lot of use. You see generic JM5Ks and occasionally Dengar.

Maybe we'll see the meta shift away from bomber squadrons and maximally efficient squadron activation power (caveat: the meta has been pretty much at that point for a while now). But right now, bombers and activating those bombers are the most powerful thing in the game. And Rebels have the best bombers and the best activations.

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17 hours ago, Caldias said:

Other point of order.  Rogue is highly less valuable with the introduction of flotillas and relay, especially with the action economy Jendon provides.  Defenders are better in every way than a YT.  Rogue lists can work, but they aren't nearly as efficient as activated squadrons, and now with squadrons activating from wherever you want, Rogue's value is much lessened.  I agree back before CC and Wave V Imp squadrons were more specialized and therefore harder to find a balanced list for, but now, the Defender is THE best all around squadron in the game.  If YV-666 is dead on arrival, then why are B-Wings considered great? With the advent of RLB I think YVs are pretty great.  One more point than a B-Wing, and 1 slower, but 2 more hull and grit and rogue and way better anti squadron.

 I think Rogues have now, in general, seen their heyday.  Defender has easily replaced the YT as the benchmark squadron, in my opinion.

Defenders are NOT better than a 2400 in every way. YVs are better at killing aces and do not require capital ship help to preform interdiction duties.

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1 hour ago, Grey Mage said:

Defenders are NOT better than a 2400 in every way. YVs are better at killing aces and do not require capital ship help to preform interdiction duties.

Defenders are faster have more consistent damage while 2400 have rogue that just means they go last and in the squadron game for the EMPIRE alpha strike is extremely important.

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20 hours ago, Caldias said:

Other point of order.  Rogue is highly less valuable with the introduction of flotillas and relay, especially with the action economy Jendon provides.  Defenders are better in every way than a YT.  Rogue lists can work, but they aren't nearly as efficient as activated squadrons, and now with squadrons activating from wherever you want, Rogue's value is much lessened.  I agree back before CC and Wave V Imp squadrons were more specialized and therefore harder to find a balanced list for, but now, the Defender is THE best all around squadron in the game.  If YV-666 is dead on arrival, then why are B-Wings considered great? With the advent of RLB I think YVs are pretty great.  One more point than a B-Wing, and 1 slower, but 2 more hull and grit and rogue and way better anti squadron.

 I think Rogues have now, in general, seen their heyday.  Defender has easily replaced the YT as the benchmark squadron, in my opinion.

Rogue enables lists which don't want to spam squadron commands, such as MSU, and the YT-2400 is the best generic rogue out there.  The TIE Defender benefits from 1 extra speed which is a bit like rogue; not relevant once the fight happens. It does have a bit more consistency than the YT, but not too much. It's slightly better than giving the YT-2400 swarm.  I really like the TIE Defender, by the way.

 

YV-666 is DOA because it has heavy.

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Oh great, look what we have here, another Imperial player with micro-aggressions. The poor Imperials and their dominance over the entire galaxy is no longer going the way they liked it. I suppose you think that Wookies should still be slaves, huh?:P

Edited by Marinealver

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18 hours ago, Valca said:

Rogue enables lists which don't want to spam squadron commands, such as MSU, and the YT-2400 is the best generic rogue out there.  The TIE Defender benefits from 1 extra speed which is a bit like rogue; not relevant once the fight happens. It does have a bit more consistency than the YT, but not too much. It's slightly better than giving the YT-2400 swarm.  I really like the TIE Defender, by the way.

 

YV-666 is DOA because it has heavy.

I don't understand the argument here.

YT-2400 is better than the Defender because you don't need to use Squad commands, which infers the Defender is weak on an "equal" playing field. But why would someone bring a Defender and not activate it with a squad command?

Rogue doesn't matter either once you engage, so +1 speed vs Rogue is a moot point.

Point for point, the Defender is superior to the YT-2400. The "correct" way to use YT-2400 is to use with Rogue, which means waiting to the squadron phase. The "correct" way to use a Defender is during the ship phase with an activation. If you make comparisons based off of that, the Defender will win. It has higher damage output and has bomber. The YT-2400 has to survive the alpha strike before it gets to attack. If you use the YT off a squad command, you are less efficient with your points since you are buying Rogue in the 16 points.

You're going to make comparisons in a vacuum so obviously the YT-2400 is better because it's clear you are making the assumption that the Defender is being used incorrectly. What player have you seen bring Defenders and then never activate them with commands?

ISD I with FC +4 Defenders will crush YT-2400s because that's how you are supposed to utilize the force. In a real game, 2 of those YT-2400s are dead points in the alpha strike. Then you have to struggle to regain control while continuing to take FC Defenders.

The Defender is the most efficient way to spend points on squads. 

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On 11/5/2017 at 1:24 PM, WGNF911 said:

1.  Love the game, been playing over a year now.  I have tremendous respect for the developers having dabbled in some game design or rather, design modifications, I know it's difficult to make a game with different factions that are balanced but have their own flavor.

2.  No, I'm not trolling, I truly believe this.  However, I won't have much time to respond to the posts that follow so I humbly ask for objective arguments (for or against) with humor and sarcasm clearly marked.  I'll get back when I can. 

3.  To my mates reading this:  STOP ROLLING YOUR EYES!  Hahahaha

4.  I'm Imp biased.  I play the evil Empire because I like triangles!

 

There's a disturbance in the force:  the developers are Rebel sympathizers!  I've found glitches in the Matrix to prove it lol.  Yes, Imps have ISDs, Demo and Rhymer but the Rebs have soooo much synergy between ships and upgrades and squadrons … I think the recent threads covering Worlds and the mayhem the ensued prove that point.  But allow me to expound. 

The most recent FAQ has some interesting developments.  Concerning CC, the Inderdictor gets slightly nerfed whilst the Rebs have a major rule errata to their hyperlane raid.  The Rebs seem to do one every round now.  It's interesting that Pelta fleet buffs and Rieekan zombyism extends beyond their departure from the battlefield but if Motti goes away, so does his effect.  Why a double standard?

Ships:  how did the Rebel fleet, a ragtag conglomeration of bubbas and bubbaettes end up with 2 large based ships with different but awesome capabilities?  That's a game design thing I know.  But the average price for ship titles is lower  for the Rebs than for the Imps.  Additionally, Reb ships have some real advantages.  TRC was made for CR90 (or the other way around) whilst Imps have no real equivalent.  MC30???  The ship I hat the most.  How does a ship with no red dice end up with a turbolaser slot?!?!?!  Transports:  cheaper and more maneuverable than the Goz to give the Rebs less of a tax to add BCC or Comms Net or just carrier activations.  The Pelta provides multiple fleetwide buffs over the whole board whilst the Interdictor has a few tricks but is too expensive to be useful.   VSDs are too expensive as are Raiders that usually go pop in one shot (no redirect?!?!).  Though more subjective, I'd argue Reb titles are more useful than Imp titles. 

Squadrons are off the hook.  While the Imps have the market on swarm, relay, counter, and cloak (defective from release) the Rebs corner the market on most everything else.  Did you know Rebs have 22 bombers (including aces and elites) whilst Imps only have 8?  The Imps have more heavy squadrons than do the Rebs.  Why aren't the YTs heavy?  They're the space equivalent of a Peterbilt.  The Rebs have more rogues with Hera who give any other squad rogue.  How did the decimator not receive a bomber keyword?  Why has Vader not been changed to include rogue keyword?  Why isn't the TIE fighter 6 points?  Aren't they supposed to outnumber XW 2:1?  Why is a BW ace only 3 more points than a TF ace?  Would you rather have a HWK or a jumpmaster?  HWK cuz it has counter2.  Then Reb aces have synergy and work alone really well whereas Imp aces tend to require a lot of other disparate squads to get one or two tricks to work.  I know that last statement is tremendously subjective.  So, gotta go to work.  Y'all have a great day and tell me if I'm crazy … but in a nice way LOL

All I can do about this post is sit back and laugh. Not really sure if youre being serious here or you are just trying to "agressively deffend" the latest talks about Imps being really OP overall with things like Rhymmer and Demo, (super and only gamebrakers), so you move the general opinion to "balanced" again.

Really, this post makes no sense. I dont know if youre aware of the amount of demagogic trash you just spitted out in 2 paragraphs. TRC was made for CR90?, really? MC30 has no red dice? Seriously at some point I just stopped reading and realised that this was a major cry from someone that didnt even took the effort of properly analyzing the game or, at least, read the cards.

For the record: 80% of players play Imperial as main faction, FFG knows this, FFG wants $$$, make your own assumptions.

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1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

I don't understand the argument here.

YT-2400 is better than the Defender because you don't need to use Squad commands, which infers the Defender is weak on an "equal" playing field. But why would someone bring a Defender and not activate it with a squad command?

Rogue doesn't matter either once you engage, so +1 speed vs Rogue is a moot point.

Point for point, the Defender is superior to the YT-2400. The "correct" way to use YT-2400 is to use with Rogue, which means waiting to the squadron phase. The "correct" way to use a Defender is during the ship phase with an activation. If you make comparisons based off of that, the Defender will win. It has higher damage output and has bomber. The YT-2400 has to survive the alpha strike before it gets to attack. If you use the YT off a squad command, you are less efficient with your points since you are buying Rogue in the 16 points.

You're going to make comparisons in a vacuum so obviously the YT-2400 is better because it's clear you are making the assumption that the Defender is being used incorrectly. What player have you seen bring Defenders and then never activate them with commands?

ISD I with FC +4 Defenders will crush YT-2400s because that's how you are supposed to utilize the force. In a real game, 2 of those YT-2400s are dead points in the alpha strike. Then you have to struggle to regain control while continuing to take FC Defenders.

The Defender is the most efficient way to spend points on squads. 

I don't understand why the TIE Defender got brought up at all.  I responded to the assertion that "They [Imperials] also have more, and better, rogues." by comparing Rebel rogues with Imperial rogues....

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1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

You're going to make comparisons in a vacuum so obviously the YT-2400 is better because it's clear you are making the assumption that the Defender is being used incorrectly.

Well you are assuming that the YT-2400 is being used incorrectly. Who uses rogue YT2400's without first throwing Shara in to prevent the alpha strike on the YT's?

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