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WGNF911

Rebel Bias?

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I am going to tackle just a couple of things here as a lot of good points have been raised.

Rebel Squadrons with synergy have five who give buffs to others Jan, Norra, Hera, Biggs and Blount and two who work really well together Dutch and Wedge. Of the first group one helps with activation, two with surviving, one vs. ships and the other vs. squadrons.

For the Empire they have Dengar, Jendon, Rhymer, Howlrunner who two helps vs. squadrons, one vs. ships and Jendon is a force multiplier. Honorable mention to Jonus who helps ships vs. other ships. They also have to who work well together being Zertik and Bossk. The Empire also has a lot of sources of 'have some damage' which means the Rebels have to bring Escorts so that way after the Boba Fetts, Maulers and all the others have handed out damage, they can keep the regular shots off the Intel or Relay squadrons.

So the Rebels have more synergy towards surviving and the Empire towards fighting squadrons. This is thematically appropriate. What I find interesting is that defense works here. In most miniature games I've played with a few, rare exceptions, offense is always stronger than defense. I think Sloane will help this a lot, also, in whatever form she eventually comes out as. I think the Empire could use some more synergistic aces whenever new squadrons come out.

The HWK is great for the Rebels. The Jumpmaster is very good for the Empire, it needed that 1 extra speed and Swarm is a good Imperial keyword. I can understand where you think the HWK is better, but I'd say only very marginally so. Yet you didn't look at the other important keyword ships, Lambda vs. VCX where the Lambda gets Relay 2 which even with the less hull and the odd anti-squadron dice is marginally better and Jendon who keeps Relay 2 is way better than Hera who doesn't even have Relay.

Empire need more disparate squadrons because they specialize and this is a problem for them in this case as the resources are so few, what I've seen are few TIE-Advanceds for the Escort while nearly all Rebel fleets have some Escort in there which again helps with the defense. This is interesting just from a personal point because normally I prefer specialists instead of generalists but the Rebels really do make generalist squadrons work, while I would say ship wise Empire ships are often more generalist instead of specialists.

GR-75 specializes in pushing squadrons/slicing/handing tokens, it is terrible for shooting, even if you buy the version that can. Gozantis can do both. Raiders can hit ships or squadrons. CR90s only really good against ships. Arquitens solid little ships. Neb-B thanks to titles are both squadron pushers and anti-ship but fragile. Demo are slower MC30s with the weapons spread around instead of in the side and can push squadrons. Assault Frigate MkII is admittedly the most generalist ship perhaps ever, while the Interdictor is its own thing. VCD and ISD while having a serious front arc are able to do pretty much anything you want to (except go fast for the VCD!) while both flavors of a MC80 are very designed to do a thing, with the H1 variant also being able to push squadrons. You could counter with once Leia exists she can make even the squadron 1 ships push squadrons but the same already holds true of Tarkin.

So I think an interesting look is why does being a generalist help in the squadron game but is not as strong in the ship game? Squadrons are able to and have to react. If your opponent brought no squadrons, small ball or a big ball your squadrons have to deal with that. Empire squadrons on average are faster and due to that often have less Hull. So they are better at reacting in getting to where they need to be but they really rely on the Alpha Strike to make up for the fact that their weak Hull numbers and lack of survivability synergy means they can lose the war of attrition.

Ships on the other hand you develop a strategy for each one or small groups of them and they need to pull that off. They don't get as much choice in reaction due to deployment, movement, overlapping ships and obstacles, which fighters just get to breeze through most of those problems, especially Empire who are faster. So either you build a generalist ship but then you are planning for you to mess up against your opponent with your ship which means you aren't planning for your victory but how to minimize your mistakes. Great for real world strategy and tactics, terrible for a game with a points based victory system. You want to play out your plan, not reacting to your opponent. This doesn't mean ships which are generalist are planning for losing, you just need a way to use all the tools that ship provides. Taking a MC80 Command Cruiser or an ISD and no squadrons is denying part of what your ship does well.

Finally the real answer to WGFN911's question of why the Rebellion is better than the Empire? Watch the movies. Snub fighters defeat Death Star. GR-75 and X-Wings with a bit of support pwn ISDs. A-Wings defeat SSD and Wedge + Lando Millenium Falcon (next expansion, you heard it here first) blow up another Death Star. In Rogue One 3 Y-Wings cripple an ISD, a Hammerhead then smashes that ISD into another ISD and shield gate, taking out all three. All hands on Hammerhead survive... to become prisoners. in Rebels Dutch and Ezra Bridger in two Y-Wings cripple 2 ISDs. Point is Rebellion rocks. </kidding>

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17 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Rebel ships synergise with squadrons.

 

Imperials ships are substantially stronger as individuals.

 

Everyone flys their ships in tight formations, aka, the synergy becomes stronger.

Then imperial strategy should be to spread the rebels out and break up the synergy.. but then the rebels can stay together and pick off imperial ships.. i do know that most times i've accidentally split up my rebel fleet.. bad things have happened to me

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7 minutes ago, durandal343 said:

Then imperial strategy should be to spread the rebels out and break up the synergy.. but then the rebels can stay together and pick off imperial ships.. i do know that most times i've accidentally split up my rebel fleet.. bad things have happened to me

Which is best done  by outdeploying with dirt cheap squadrons.

Or outmanuevering with Jerry.

Or spliting their forces with Konstantine.

Or using fast raiders and glads.

Or taking out the core with rhymer at range.

Or using G7s and grav shift reroute to break them up.

Many ways really. Things like tractor beams have utility. 

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Just now, Ginkapo said:

Which is best done  by outdeploying with dirt cheap squadrons.

Or outmanuevering with Jerry.

Or spliting their forces with Konstantine.

Or using fast raiders and glads.

Or taking out the core with rhymer at range.

Or using G7s and grav shift reroute to break them up.

Many ways really. Things like tractor beams have utility. 

Man, I thought you were serious till you mentioned Konstantine! :D

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4 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Which is best done  by outdeploying with dirt cheap squadrons.

Or outmanuevering with Jerry.

Or spliting their forces with Konstantine.

Or using fast raiders and glads.

Or taking out the core with rhymer at range.

Or using G7s and grav shift reroute to break them up.

Many ways really. Things like tractor beams have utility. 

By the time Konstantine is in range your already being fired upon.  Bit hard to split them up using him. 

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Another thing I'd mention:

As someone who swings through phases of playing each faction, I thought I'd mention that Rebel ships are REAAALLY scared of ramming and APT's.  I.e., a good demo hit: I've been experimenting with APT, ET, OE and tua/RBD on demo.  On a last/first, you can land 3 APT hits and 2-4 ram damage easy.

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58 minutes ago, Norell said:

It is easier to learn to use the Rebels. Other than the ISD every Imp ship has some tricks you have to master before they become effective. H1, MC30, CR90 don't need so much training.

Well.. as someone who has gotten his fair share of cr90s and mc30s blown up turn 3 without firing a shot.. I disagree.  The single largest obstacle to me winning is not fleet builds but instead learning how to use these ships.  They are fragile and take skill and finesse to use well.

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22 hours ago, WGNF911 said:

My experience was tasking Demo to tap one and a couple of ships then send it on its own to kill the other station which took her away from killing more Rebs.  I got the points for the two stations but ultimately lost because I couldn't kill enough of his ships fast enough.  Squadrons helped some but they got tied up with XW spam.  But I agree, both those special objectives require Imp aggression and Reb patience (trap setting).  Hyperlane raid before required rebs to actually raid if the Imp wanted to slow row. 

 

Did I'd I mention how awesome Reb ship shields are?  Sure you have the Neb outlier but MC30 and Libs are insane. 

Ehhh, liberties have 5 front but the side and back are only 2. Not nearly home one 4, 4 ,3.

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I agree with the OP. While it may not be simply bias, I do see a power creep on the Rebel side. It's subtle, but it is There. The examples the OP gave are clear enough.

Come on, Sato? Dutch and Wedge? I haven't looked through the cards recently but, those are two strong examples that I don't think the Empire has a match for. 

Sure, you could counter with upgrades, if you can afford it after adding ships and fighters to your list. 

I really thought the cheaper ships would have helped the rebels enough but, FFG seems to think they need magic to get the job done as well.  

Still love Armada and it's not broken yet but, FFG may want to cool it a little. 

Edited by RedPriest

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Sure I'll Chime in.

Rebel Small ships are awesome. CR-90s. Unkillable MC-30s. Carrier Yavaris, Pelta, GR-75s. You can make many effective lists out of the Rebellion never leaving the small ship category. Small ships, obviously, are cheaper so you can buy more of them and have an easier time winning the activation game. It's even worse that cards like TRCs exist, which upgrade the damage output of multiple CR-90s while the Empire has nothing to counter that with for their medium-large ships. Unless you have Needa, no medium-large ship will ever cancel small incriments of damage.

Rebel Fighters are awesome for being balanced: This means for fewer squadrons you can do more. It's an instance where being a jack of all trades is an advantage, because when buying fighters you don't have to double up to do what you need to do. The reason TIE Fighters and Interceptors dried up competitively (forcing Sloane to be made) is because if killing capital ships is king, then there's no reason to take those weaker AA fighters and instead go big with the one significant fighter advantage for the Empire: Rhymer with bombers. I think many Imperial fighter players would agree that this is a boring way to play, making everyone take aces to try preserving a sense of fun.

Meanwhile Rebel fighters like the B-Wing is awesome, if slow, because 3 dice AA is good, it's THE BEST BOMBER IN THE GAME with 3 output maximum, and 5 hull can tank a lot of damage. Force multipliers like Norra, BCCs, and Toryn Farr make these a threat against fighter and captital ship alike. What fighter in the Empire is that capable? Not TIE/Ds, they only throw one die on their battery. Not Firesprays, they're incrimentally pricer by comparison and have that whole quibble with being rogue (so when is the best time they should activate, before or after those B-Wings fire?)

The CC Aces heavily favored Rebels: In part to get around Rhymer, but the unholy trinity of Norra/Shara/Ten is frightful compared to, Saber/Valen. Norra alone makes the vast number of bombers in the Rebel inventory kill ships better by wiping shields, essentially tabling ISDs in one turn (I've seen it happen). Because with an awesome tool like Yavaris and Adar tallon you can leverage much more out of high-cost squadrons you only buy once to do the job. Rieekan preserving those aces (And Biggs coming up to replace him) will let these squadrons persist long enough to win the squadorn game, then bomb capital ships unopposed.

Empire Large ships... underperform: I won't say Suck. The ISD is awesome by... virtue of being the biggest thing in the game. Biggest hull, biggest fighter rating, biggest batteries. That said a Yavaris with two GR75s carrying BCCs and a ton of B-Wings will annihilate it. VSDs have been the subject of complaints since wave 2, and the best way to field an interdictor is to not use it to fight things. That's two out of three Imperial ships that are underperforming.

Had large ship defenses scaled with small ship damage output (again, TRCs, APTs, other things you put on lots of small ships that do a lot of damage), VSDs and ISDs  big battery play would still be a thing. The reason big batteries don't work is because they can get out-activated by fringe small rebel ships that bait the bigger ships into Yavaris/Admo range, and then they get pounced on. Besides, most of the targets big batteries would be firing on are too busy dancing out of range with their high speed movement tricks, meaning they never get into black range unless they want to, or are careless. Jerjerrod is not going to help that VSD chase down an evasive CR-90 firing out of its side arcs, constantly dealing 2 damage.

Apart from Demo/Rhymer, what does the Empire have?: Through most of playing the game I've been seeking various builds that do not rely on one of these two cards. I feel no list is satisfying, and I keep placing low in tournaments because I refuse to use these cards. I feel that the Rebels have a lot of synergies to go to, to be fun (Massed MC-30s with OE APTs? A Yavaris list with a ton of bombers? A movie star Liberty with a back-up band of CR-90s?) I don't feel that confidence in the Empire with the kinds of tools we have on-hand that aren't Rhymer and Demolisher. ISDs are pretty much it, aagin, by virtue of being the biggest unit in the game.

 

So I feel it's an uphill struggle for an Imperial player. Yeah, Demo/Rhymer was king for the longest time and everyone hated it, but so did I. I didn't want my entire competitive meta choices to come down to a fighter and a non-canon ship. I want something to come out soon to increase the resiliency of my VSD-ISD play, so I can look at those choices without restricting it to one ship that I'm taking Tua or Needa on.

Sloane and the Quasar can make things interesting by bringing back TIE swarms. I have a sneaky feeling that Sloane exhausting defense tokens out of fighters might end up being a bit... much. On the other hand, it'll be perfect revenge for those fighters that have been left behind by Rhymer.

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Disregarding Rieekan, regionals data shows a pretty even playing field all the way through, from top to bottom. 

It's hard for Imps to do better when they are down 1 ship, and 2 others (Vic and Interdictor) do not perform up to par with the Rebels. I'm not saying they are bad ships, but they are slow and predictable. They pack quite a punch but are easy to out maneuver.

Doesn't help that all the Rebel commanders are worth taking, where as Vader, Screed, Motti and JJ are the best for Imps. 

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This is just a thought experiment, but imagine if all the ships had a stat that was the number of arcs they could shoot each turn. The default would be 2 as it is now. 

CR90s, GR75 and MC30 Scout could be reduced to 1.  The CR90 and Scout would also see a price drop to account, the GR75 is cheap enough and not really affected by the stat that much.

VSDs ISDs MC80s and AFIIA could be increased to 3.  Maybe a small price increase on some? not sure. Since it wouldn't help them concentrate fire onto one ship more, it might be ok to leave them as is.

It would help reduce the opportunity cost of buying a large ship (less activations, less shots, less defense tokens) over two smaller ones (more activations, more shots, more defense tokens). 

 

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All great points!  This came to mind, thinking of various ship types.  How is it that the ISD1 with 7 black dice in its batteries (3f, 2l, 2r) didn't get an ordnance upgrade slot?  Every other ship with 2 or more black in a battery has an ord slot.  @Undeadguy and @Norsehound, those are excellent points about the VSD and Interdictor; they are too expensive and too slow and to really be of any good.  You can ET but that makes it even more expensive. 

 

I understand that canon should have a role in the game design but not to the point that one faction becomes unplayable. 

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14 minutes ago, WGNF911 said:

All great points!  This came to mind, thinking of various ship types.  How is it that the ISD1 with 7 black dice in its batteries (3f, 2l, 2r) didn't get an ordnance upgrade slot?  Every other ship with 2 or more black in a battery has an ord slot.  @Undeadguy and @Norsehound, those are excellent points about the VSD and Interdictor; they are too expensive and too slow and to really be of any good.  You can ET but that makes it even more expensive. 

 

I understand that canon should have a role in the game design but not to the point that one faction becomes unplayable. 

Because as it has been discussed multiple times - the Dice are not inherently the weapons being fired, rather the range of the weapons in general...  

The ISD-1 does not pack Ordnance, so it does not have an ordnance slot...  its black dice are a measure of its close range firepower only.  Which are provided by Turbo and battery lasers...  So many lasers...

An MC30 Torpedo Frigate does not pack Ion Cannons in any significant number, so it does not have a slot to generate an ion based effects - its Medium Range weaponry is Turbolaser based, however...  They just lack the Range of the Scout Frigate's versions...  

 

There is a measure of games design in that, and that's treatment of the original source material.  

 

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3 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

Doesn't help that all the Rebel commanders are worth taking, where as Vader, Screed, Motti and JJ are the best for Imps. 

Screed depends entirely if you're running APTs. If not, you go to Motti. Vader is there if you do have large or similar pools that you want to re-roll, like ARQs or ISDs.

People love Jerjerrod and seem to think he's the savior of the VSD, but I'll continue to point out that he doesn't improve the speed or protection of the ship. Turning hard doesn't matter if CR-90s are sniping you at long range over two turns, depleting your shields, to either burn your brace token or threaten it. Once that's gone it's only a matter of time.

 

1 hour ago, WGNF911 said:

All great points!  This came to mind, thinking of various ship types.  How is it that the ISD1 with 7 black dice in its batteries (3f, 2l, 2r) didn't get an ordnance upgrade slot?  Every other ship with 2 or more black in a battery has an ord slot.  @Undeadguy and @Norsehound, those are excellent points about the VSD and Interdictor; they are too expensive and too slow and to really be of any good.  You can ET but that makes it even more expensive. 

 

I understand that canon should have a role in the game design but not to the point that one faction becomes unplayable. 

Engine Techs cannot go on the VSD. It is literally the only speed 2 ship in the game without a support team slot- a very glaring omission that is part of the reason why the ship performs so poorly. VSD-Is can't get their black dice into range- either you play them with defensive objectives and a deep bid to go second and force your opponent to come to you, or you don't take anything there and use them for cheap-ish Fighter 3.

There IS a difference between playable and competitive. The Empire's ships work just as well as the Rebellion's. But getting into the point-crushing race of finding optimal builds to face all comers, the Rebels have better tools to survive assaults against the Empire, and just enough offensive tools to overcome the Empire's meager defensive bonus

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53 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Screed depends entirely if you're running APTs. If not, you go to Motti. Vader is there if you do have large or similar pools that you want to re-roll, like ARQs or ISDs.

People love Jerjerrod and seem to think he's the savior of the VSD, but I'll continue to point out that he doesn't improve the speed or protection of the ship. Turning hard doesn't matter if CR-90s are sniping you at long range over two turns, depleting your shields, to either burn your brace token or threaten it. Once that's gone it's only a matter of time.

Screed is excellent at boosting damage output on all ships. I don't really care for Vader. And Motti is boring and is annoying more than anything. He doesn't do anything to keep you alive. He just delays.

JJ is the best of the 4 because he can make or break your fleet. Being able to set up your arcs or dodge out of your opponents will save more damage in the long run. I can't tell you how many times I've had a perfect movement because JJ let me get the extra yaw. He makes Vics playable since you can make 90 degree turns to keep your front arc on target. It takes 1 maneuver to get out of a CR90s arc since they tend to stay at long range. He is the best offensive and defensive commander for Imperial because making proper movements will win or lose you the game.

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Good maneuvering is the best defense you can have in this game. JJ really buffs that part, and unlike a navigate dial, JJ also allows you to continue to focus on whatever it is your ship needs to do, like sling dice or throw squadrons. JJ gives Vics a life other than hang back and push squadrons, or pull a navigate every turn.

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JJ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madine IMO.  Cheaper and more effective, doesn't require a command to use.

I will say some of the Imperial Admirals are lackluster (Tagge, Tarkin, Konstantine), but I think the Rebels are catching up in that regard (Sato, Leia, Garm).  I do feel the pain imps have with having to spend more points on ships.

As far as squadrons?  Man, I think the Imps actually have the edge here.  Zertik is amazing at protecting stuff, and Jendon is hands down amazing, makes Vader worth taking as a squadron, and now they also have the best squadron in the game, pound for pound, in the Defender. In addition, Imperial squadrons are so much faster than Rebels, so are able to engage on their own terms. Ciena is great, Jonus is good, Saber is the best snipe in the game, etc.

I think the main thing is a lot of the Imperial titles don't really do much for the ship, outside of Demolisher and MAYBE Avenger now that Sloane has a cool ability to synergize with that.

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8 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

Screed is excellent at boosting damage output on all ships. I don't really care for Vader. And Motti is boring and is annoying more than anything. He doesn't do anything to keep you alive. He just delays.

JJ is the best of the 4 because he can make or break your fleet. Being able to set up your arcs or dodge out of your opponents will save more damage in the long run. I can't tell you how many times I've had a perfect movement because JJ let me get the extra yaw. He makes Vics playable since you can make 90 degree turns to keep your front arc on target. It takes 1 maneuver to get out of a CR90s arc since they tend to stay at long range. He is the best offensive and defensive commander for Imperial because making proper movements will win or lose you the game.

Well... yes at a base Screed is guaranteeing a crit. You get the most mileage out of him if you have something depending on crits, but generally I'm presuming people default to Motti if they want no other commander in particular. Vader is there if you want to put some points into your commanders. Tarkin is basically obsolite with everyone buying Gozantis for Boosted comms. Tagge is MIA because his timing is just as lethal to him as it is to Garm. Konstantine would be okay if medium-large ships weren't actually vulnerable to smallarms fire.

I've used JJ on occasion, I just think he's better on basically every other ship than the Victory. Do you want your VSDs turning, or do you reely want a hyper-manuverable ISD-II, backed with Demolisher, and one or two Arquitens? All of those ships are faster than the VSD. Hyper-turning a speed 2 VSD feels like just deciding where you want to point your three red dice when chasing down fast moving ships. All I feel JJ does is allow the VSDs to use their front arcs for maybe a turn or two more than the would have otherwise. He does not patch the major deficiencies I see in large ships now. *shrug*

7 hours ago, Caldias said:

JJ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madine IMO.  Cheaper and more effective, doesn't require a command to use.

I will say some of the Imperial Admirals are lackluster (Tagge, Tarkin, Konstantine), but I think the Rebels are catching up in that regard (Sato, Leia, Garm).  I do feel the pain imps have with having to spend more points on ships.

As far as squadrons?  Man, I think the Imps actually have the edge here.  Zertik is amazing at protecting stuff, and Jendon is hands down amazing, makes Vader worth taking as a squadron, and now they also have the best squadron in the game, pound for pound, in the Defender. In addition, Imperial squadrons are so much faster than Rebels, so are able to engage on their own terms. Ciena is great, Jonus is good, Saber is the best snipe in the game, etc.

I think the main thing is a lot of the Imperial titles don't really do much for the ship, outside of Demolisher and MAYBE Avenger now that Sloane has a cool ability to synergize with that.

I feel many of the Imperial commanders are Lackluster. I prefer Vader because I like making use of large Dice pools, and Motti because I love insurmountable space mountains, but I don't really feel interested by any of them. Sloane is the first commander I'm feeling excited about because I want to play out the revenge of TIE Swarms.

Thing is, all of the Imperial fighters are good at killing other fighters... but when you've killed all the fighters, what then? Everything is lackluster after that at bombing except some specialty squadrons, and TIE Bombers. None of the squadrons you list are geared at harming capital ships well... even Jonus, because he enhances capital ships. On the Rebel side?

Luke bypasses shields, Farlander gets re-rolls on downed shields, Nym blows off defensive tokens, Norra allows every other Bomber to strip shields faster, Gold squads love Toryn Farr... And these first two aces also come with some decent blue dice to harm squadrons. Even Ten Numb, with his AOE damage he can do, is a B-Wing yoked to a blue-black battery!

So sure, if Empire wipes Rebel fighters, they're just firing softballs for the rest of the game. But if a Yavaris battle line uses one turn to wipe out squadrons, the second turn it'll punch big holes in capital ships.

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7 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Well... yes at a base Screed is guaranteeing a crit. You get the most mileage out of him if you have something depending on crits, but generally I'm presuming people default to Motti if they want no other commander in particular. Vader is there if you want to put some points into your commanders. Tarkin is basically obsolite with everyone buying Gozantis for Boosted comms. Tagge is MIA because his timing is just as lethal to him as it is to Garm. Konstantine would be okay if medium-large ships weren't actually vulnerable to smallarms fire.

I've used JJ on occasion, I just think he's better on basically every other ship than the Victory. Do you want your VSDs turning, or do you reely want a hyper-manuverable ISD-II, backed with Demolisher, and one or two Arquitens? All of those ships are faster than the VSD. Hyper-turning a speed 2 VSD feels like just deciding where you want to point your three red dice when chasing down fast moving ships. All I feel JJ does is allow the VSDs to use their front arcs for maybe a turn or two more than the would have otherwise. He does not patch the major deficiencies I see in large ships now. *shrug*

I feel many of the Imperial commanders are Lackluster. I prefer Vader because I like making use of large Dice pools, and Motti because I love insurmountable space mountains, but I don't really feel interested by any of them. Sloane is the first commander I'm feeling excited about because I want to play out the revenge of TIE Swarms.

Thing is, all of the Imperial fighters are good at killing other fighters... but when you've killed all the fighters, what then? Everything is lackluster after that at bombing except some specialty squadrons, and TIE Bombers. None of the squadrons you list are geared at harming capital ships well... even Jonus, because he enhances capital ships. On the Rebel side?

Luke bypasses shields, Farlander gets re-rolls on downed shields, Nym blows off defensive tokens, Norra allows every other Bomber to strip shields faster, Gold squads love Toryn Farr... And these first two aces also come with some decent blue dice to harm squadrons. Even Ten Numb, with his AOE damage he can do, is a B-Wing yoked to a blue-black battery!

So sure, if Empire wipes Rebel fighters, they're just firing softballs for the rest of the game. But if a Yavaris battle line uses one turn to wipe out squadrons, the second turn it'll punch big holes in capital ships.

I think JJ, Screed, and ESPECIALLY Ozzel are very strong commanders.  Point for point I think Ozzel might be the best commander.

I disagree about Imperial squadrons somehow not being good against ships. As far as squadrons, Jendon is basically a better Yavaris, because the movement restriction is removed, but of course yes, lesser effect.  Jendon is the only strategic squadron that doesn't have to take a hit to attack economy.  Maarek automatically does at least one damage a turn, and almost always does two.  Rhymer is still amazing, and Imperials still have the cheapest bomber in the game, and way better ships to push them, as far as survivability and going to where your targets are.  They also have more, and better, rogues.  Sure, rebs are better all arounders.  But while gold squadron is awesome, you get Firesprays en mase if you want, and Defenders are still just all around awesome.  Yeah, Phantoms are lackluster, but so are E-Wings IMO, and Decimators are really great at anti squadron and anti ship.  Sure, some of the Rebels are really strong all arounders, but I cannot with a straight face say that somehow Imperial squadrons are lacking.

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