Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Blail Blerg

Gross

Recommended Posts

Seriously?  What is wrong with people. What does it take for you to recognize there's a systemic problem that treats people and what they love about the game unfairly.  Those people make me sick.  Its almost like the sick twisted crap I hear in real world politics all day. 

I was gonna save you all the trouble by not sht storming over the world thread, so here you go.  One whole thread dedicated to it.  I wasn't even going to post this and let it pass, but this is so disgusting and blatant dismissal of a problem.  I've never been so turned off by a game forum.  

Squadrons are overpowered.  Rieekan needs an adjustment.  BCC is poor game design as a force multiplier unchecked. 

Squadons are the best damage mathematically in the game. Rebel squadron lists have no difficult match ups against non-skew-AA lists. 

6/top8 are the same archetype: Rieekan, 5 activations, 3 flots, BCC, 134 Squadrons, Yavaris, even a Pelta made the top4.  No imperials in the whole top 8.  

I said this would be at the top at worlds.  This exact list type. 

Game is fine.  That's it.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

just messing bro. I agree, i'm just not as salty about it.

I saw this coming when I showed up to a casual 2 round tourney in Toronto after not having played competitively in a long while. I came with 2 different, experimental, fun lists I wanted to try and picked one by literally flipping a coin. Then I looked around and pretty much 80% of the people there had a version of reeikan aces list with Yavaris and everyone was shaking their heads at my list because it didn't have 134 points of squads.

Incidentally, one of the 20% was Norm with an imperial list, he lost to Yiks list and said something along the lines of not being able to find an imperial counter to that Archtype, Yik agreed that it was indeed too strong.

Keep in mind these guys are painfully good players and theorycrafters in the game, they also play a LOT and if Norm can't find a counter I don't know if there is a viable one...naturally they took what has the highest % chance to win to worlds. Results speak for themselves.

When I saw that list at work and learned some of the mechanics of it from those guys I decided not to go back to tourneys in Toronto for a while. The choice seems to be Reeikan Aces or....Reeikan aces, and since I would be playing against master level players at their own game, why bother?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, I actually LIKE the "squadron play", once I got used to it.  It feels very "Star Wars"-y to me.

But you're not wrong - squadrons are OP vs ships - and FFG obviously knows that.  I mean, their acknowledgement of that is baked into the core rules.  Why else limit the size of your list that can be squadrons?  If squadrons were legitimately "balanced" vs ships, then there would be no need for a limit - someone bringing no ships and 400 pts of squadrons would have a fair fight against someone bringing no squadrons and 400 pts of ships.

And we all know (as does FFG - it's in the core rules!) that this would be no form of balanced fight, at all.

That does feel like a bummer, to me.  I'd like squadron play to have been 'better balanced', so that pure-squadron lists could run against pure-ship lists, and any mixed balance of the two, depending only on player preference and tactical strategy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll be interested to see if Kallus + the Quasar with the red anti squad dice is any good at countering the masses of unique squadrons in the 2 + 3 fleets.  Particularly with Sloan thrown in, it may be a counter type for the imperials.  Though, unless it could also stand on it's own two feet, it probably wouldn't rock the meta enough to topple the 2 + 3's.  Plus I don't really want the game to devolve into scissors, paper, rock.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

Seriously?  What is wrong with people. What does it take for you to recognize there's a systemic problem that treats people and what they love about the game unfairly.  Those people make me sick.  Its almost like the sick twisted crap I hear in real world politics all day. 

I was gonna save you all the trouble by not sht storming over the world thread, so here you go.  One whole thread dedicated to it.  I wasn't even going to post this and let it pass, but this is so disgusting and blatant dismissal of a problem.  I've never been so turned off by a game forum.  

Squadrons are overpowered.  Rieekan needs an adjustment.  BCC is poor game design as a force multiplier unchecked. 

Squadons are the best damage mathematically in the game. Rebel squadron lists have no difficult match ups against non-skew-AA lists. 

6/top8 are the same archetype: Rieekan, 5 activations, 3 flots, BCC, 134 Squadrons, Yavaris, even a Pelta made the top4.  No imperials in the whole top 8.  

I said this would be at the top at worlds.  This exact list type. 

Game is fine.  That's it.  

I think that A) you've said this like a couple of times already, and B) you'll find that a lot of ppl are agreeing with some/or all of the above.

This is the first time Armada has experienced something like this. I'm sure FFG is carefully considering their options - nerf-bat included.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Heard some stuff from the rumor mill that demo and rieekan are looking to get the nerf bat soon. But no promises. Unfortunate for Demo. Maybe they are trying to stop some titles from showing up EVERYWHERE. Or something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We brought up this list type in the Utah regionals when Mythics brought it to play, and it felt like the community was shooting our concerns down as a fringe thing. Well, here it is, top of Worlds. We knew it was going to happen and the only competitive solution against it is to either not play, or take a list just like it.

I'm sorely missing the relevance of Imperial gun vessels. If Empire wants maximum damage, a player takes Demolisher. For more, they'll turn to Rhymer and load up on Bombers. This isn't what I imagined the Imperial navy to be; I thought it would be maximum turbolaser punishment fired out of space mountains and being impervious to squadrons. Our TIEs would be enough to keep the rebels busy while we blew away their capital ships with Star Destroyer Batteries. Now thanks to Intel and Yavaris, our TIEs are nothing and so apparently are our shields. Why buy anything other than carrier ISDs when you can cram in more flotillas into a list with more hard-to-kill fighters and flotillas for more activations? Imperial heavies are so out-attrited now that it's not worth the bother except to activate squads for alpha strikes. Soon, Quasar Fires with their magical fighter 4 rating will come along and probably undercut the utility of the ISD and VSD so you can take... more flotillas! Or APT Raiders! Or Arquitens so you can dispense with your flying targets we call Star Destroyers. And thanks to Relay you don't have to be anywhere near your fighters to ride them to Rhymerball dominance.

Still... even if the future is fighters, at least Sloane and the Quasar might give some better alternatives for the Empire to use down the line. Something like our own Yavaris, perhaps? At least the Empire is given an enticing reason to run something other than max Rhymerball bombers. I wish the solution could be beating fighter lists with a capital ship instead of joining them, but here we are. Let's see what Sloane and friends can do to the meta against Rieekan and friends. Maybe it's time for TIE Swarms to legitimately threaten capital ships and punish aces.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I want to get a little history lesson but first a suggestion to balance competitive play: limit or forbid unique characters. In campaign play it shouldn't matter so much (once you nail the dude, he's gone).

Now the history lesson. I've played a few space opera miniatures games over the years. Stat Fleet Battles, Star Blazers Fleet Battle System, Full Thrust, some home made rules, Aerotech, possible some others I've forgotten. They all feature lots of space fighters. (I didn't get around to the Babylon 5 game but did get some of the minis.)

I suggest this pattern is due to much space opera combat having been inspired by the Pacific campaign in WWII (blame it on Heinlein). This concept of space war would tend to emphasis aircraft analogies as a decisive weapon. So we see stub fighters doing a lot of damage in the Star Wars movies. 

In all those games I listed fighters are powerful. It is due to the whole concept of space battles following WWII carrier warfare. But that is basically what Star Wars  space combat is modelled on. FFG has to try and capture the feel of Stars Wars space battles, so that is just the way it goes.

Star Trek seems to have a different take on space opera warfare. SFB changed it as the rules were developed from a WWII naval game. But if one likes capital ships and no fighters, maybe try a game more closely representing the Star Trek universe? There have been some more realistic space combat simulations around every so often but everyone apart from physics students find them boring.

Anyway, space fighters being powerful is representative of the Star Wars depiction of space combat so that shouldn't change. Maybe by simulating it we have shown up how the movie designers failed to think through the implications of the technology as they portrayed it (ie: capital ships being about as effective as they were in WWII against carrier warfare and thus the protagonists should have been using fighter carriers and small anti fighter escorts).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well hey, since you're just re-posting the same stuff, I'll do the same thing:

Quote

I think the results of Worlds has a lot to do with players being unwilling to take chances at that level, but I am also happy to concede that you have a point. Rieekan Aces needs a bit of a nerf. Now please, brother, take a breath, remember this is a game, and give FFG a chance to make adjustments.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Norsehound said:

We brought up this list type in the Utah regionals when Mythics brought it to play, and it felt like the community was shooting our concerns down as a fringe thing. Well, here it is, top of Worlds. We knew it was going to happen and the only competitive solution against it is to either not play, or take a list just like it.

I'm sorely missing the relevance of Imperial gun vessels. If Empire wants maximum damage, a player takes Demolisher. For more, they'll turn to Rhymer and load up on Bombers. This isn't what I imagined the Imperial navy to be; I thought it would be maximum turbolaser punishment fired out of space mountains and being impervious to squadrons. Our TIEs would be enough to keep the rebels busy while we blew away their capital ships with Star Destroyer Batteries. Now thanks to Intel and Yavaris, our TIEs are nothing and so apparently are our shields. Why buy anything other than carrier ISDs when you can cram in more flotillas into a list with more hard-to-kill fighters and flotillas for more activations? Imperial heavies are so out-attrited now that it's not worth the bother except to activate squads for alpha strikes. Soon, Quasar Fires with their magical fighter 4 rating will come along and probably undercut the utility of the ISD and VSD so you can take... more flotillas! Or APT Raiders! Or Arquitens so you can dispense with your flying targets we call Star Destroyers. And thanks to Relay you don't have to be anywhere near your fighters to ride them to Rhymerball dominance.

Still... even if the future is fighters, at least Sloane and the Quasar might give some better alternatives for the Empire to use down the line. Something like our own Yavaris, perhaps? At least the Empire is given an enticing reason to run something other than max Rhymerball bombers. I wish the solution could be beating fighter lists with a capital ship instead of joining them, but here we are. Let's see what Sloane and friends can do to the meta against Rieekan and friends. Maybe it's time for TIE Swarms to legitimately threaten capital ships and punish aces.

This... makes me so incredibly sad. The complete reduction of how awesome this game could be, in all of its actual Star Wars fleet glory, into... that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As someone who genuinely agrees some balancing needs to happen, I think you could stand to chill out a bit @Blail Blerg. You don't have to get the entire forums to agree with you.

I did find it funny that on the IA forums, after world's being dominated in the top 16 by Scum lists, the forums for IA basically straight up said "Yeah, looks like we need some balancing" and then proceeded to have a discussion about possible changes. Oh Armada. If only.

 

Edit: You could also stand to not "I told you so" so much. Part of being a good community is having a little grace when you are right.

Edited by WuFame

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

Heard some stuff from the rumor mill that demo and rieekan are looking to get the nerf bat soon. But no promises. Unfortunate for Demo. Maybe they are trying to stop some titles from showing up EVERYWHERE. Or something.

I know that FFG gathered statistics on Demo usage at Worlds and only one fleet with the gladiator in it didnt have demo title. So, Ithink that some action against Demo is likely. I wish that if the action is coming it would not be limited to Demo and Rieekan as in my opinion it may not be enough as in my mind fleeing relaying flotillas are also a problem (even if it is only playability/fun issue)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, pt106 said:

I know that FFG gathered statistics on Demo usage at Worlds and only one fleet with the gladiator in it didnt have demo title. So, Ithink that some action against Demo is likely. I wish that if the action is coming it would not be limited to Demo and Rieekan as in my opinion it may not be enough as in my mind fleeing relaying flotillas are also a problem (even if it is only playability/fun issue)

My problem with nerfing demo now is that it's a bit too late now, isn't it? I mean, we shouldn't nerf something just because it's in a lot of lists. By this definition we should nerf rymer when you take bombers. Demo can be countered with different methods. Rieekan + flotillas + 134pt ace squads + Yavaris + relay is really only counterable with Rieekan + flotillas + 134pt ace squads + Yavaris + relay. That's grounds for a nerf IMHO. 

Edited by moodswing5537

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My issue about this topic is pretty simple. We can all have opinions on the matter and may even disagree. But we can't change the rules no matter how many threads people start about "The Perfect Rieekan Solution". 

FFG will do what they think is best. By all accounts, the Armada crew is devoted to the longevity of the game.

I don't care for the results of Worlds, but I'm not going to take away those victories because of what fleet they ran. They played well and did the right thing in order to win.

Have faith FFG will take steps to fix the problem, whether it be errata or new content.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, moodswing5537 said:

My problem with nerfing demo now is that it's a bit too late now, isn't it? I mean, we shouldn't nerf something just because it's in a lot of lists. By this definition we should nerf rymer when you take bombers. Demo can be countered with different methods. Rieekan + flotillas + 134pt ace squads + Yavaris + relay is really only counterable with Rieekan + flotillas + 134pt ace squads + Yavaris + relay. That's grounds for a nerf IMHO. 

Eh. Personally I think you should definitely re-evaluate something if it's showing up in a lot of lists. Like... An overwhelming number of Imperial lists. I'd extend this to Yavaris as well, whose primary weakness, that it had to be in the middle of the fight while being extremely fragile, has now been curtailed by the existence of Relay. There may only need to be minor changes to these titles as a result, and I trust FFG to sort it out effectively.

And just another comment. We have to, as a community, stop countering "This should be balanced" with "But it's counterable". Something being counterable is good, but it's not the sole requirement to write off balancing something. The game would be extremely terrible if it was just List X vs Counter to List X.

It's not completely related to your post, moodswing, it's just a common comment I've been hearing and it's driving me nuts.

Edited by WuFame

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Blail Blerg, you seem very close to pulling an Admiral Nelson. I recommend taking a breath and taking a step back. Very few are disagreeing with you. 

 

On the other note, I remember a time when people complained that they could only have a third of their points for squadrons. People even once recommended giving free points for people to take squadrons... Oh how the times change 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...