Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Grivoire

Outer Rim perspectives on current state of #NERFMETA

Recommended Posts

Hi guys, this is a purely subjective analysis on the upgrades/pilots that were/are subjects of hot debate in the ffg forum. I do not have the mathematical skills of MajorJuggler or other extraordinaires so do take my views with a sea worth of salt.

1. Twin Laser Turret
Is no longer relevant to the nerf rage. Both its counter (Arc dodgers) and its breakfast (Fat PWTs) are largely out of the game. I personally believe TLT will actually become a necessary evil to balance the upcoming meta, as evidenced by its appearance in TIE Aggressor.

2. Sabine Crew
Is a nerf in order? You are spending a crew slot & 2 points for an instant 1 damage each round that requires you to fly well. I believe she gives bombers a chance against arc dodgers. Also, I'd like to add that bombers are not the reason arc dodgers are gone. Recall that Soontir/Vader maintained their reign in wave 7 where K-wings already existed. Also Soontir never truly went out of meta, even today. The world just decided to turn their back on the Baron. Dark days for the empire.

3. Biggs
Ahh, Biggs. The demon lord of the rebellion. When you saw X-Wing as the most played rebel ships in worlds, you know it's not X-Wing. It's Biggs™. Players have been calling incessantly for its nerf, even after his ability is partially nerfed. I'm sure that the devs are treading a difficult path here. On one side, his ability limits design space for potential T-65 fixes. On the other side, a lot of rebel ships have low agility and relies on Biggs to tank their aggro. 

Biggs being the one left standing on the last moments of Worlds 2017 final is a testament to the fact that the partial nerf works. But what if the opponent didn't carry ordnance? As it stands now, Biggs as the most prevalent rebel ships could potentially restrict other list building to either include ordnance, or face gang beating from Biggs' friends. As such, I agree with the majority that an errata is in order.

Limiting his ability to once per round is a popular suggestion. I personally advocate changing his ability to require focus in order to force opposing ships to attack him, if able much like shield projector upgrade card. In this way, we get to see the focus sharing shenanigans that was unique to rebels back in play, and Biggs can rightly protect his allies for as long as he is focused.

What if we add wording on integrated astromech to enable T65 & T70 to allow equipping an additional mod? Won't that solve the problem? Repositioning is the biggest issue with T65, and durability is the biggest issue with T70.

4. Jumpmaster 5000
I think Alex cringes when he saw Jumpmaster won the worlds again, but maybe that's just me ;). Although I personally feel that the world's champion list is totally fine (his maneuvering skills are what brought him there, very precise), I agree with the majority where increasing the base cost by 2 points is probably overdue. The upgrade cards aren't the problem, the chassis is. Currently Dengar is 45 pts with punishing one title. In comparison, Dash starts at 48 pts with HLC, 45 pts with Mangler at PS7. Non-Rolling PS9 Han Solo is 46 pts and bro-do-you-even-kturn PS8 Chiraneau is 46 pts. I'm sure everyone agrees that Double tapping is one of the best abilities in the game, and with a white Sloop and 1-hard + Barrel Roll combo, it isn't hard to achieve too. As for the generics, 2 pts effectively removes the extra munitions so not only that they have to do a proper maneuvering, they also have to be even more selective in their target priority. By the way, why do every imperial large ships except the most useless one cannot K-turn? 

5. Emperor Palpatine
The X7 nerf is a good call from FFG on both reasoning and execution grounds. It is a logical solution to the issue, but Palpatine's nerf is an undeserved one. He brings certainty to a faction that is almost entirely dependant on RNG, and the 12.5% cost of a full list justifies that ability. With the nerf, barely anything within the faction (including palpatine himself) could perform consistently apart from X7 Defenders, Omega Leader and The InquisitorHeed me folks: If what he does is handing an extra evade to imperial aces once every round,  Major Stridan gives more and does it better than palpatine ever could. I would go so far as to say that an un-nerfed Palpatine in a lambda shuttle is the budget version of Major Stridan with proper loadout.

6. Attanni Mindlink
Is a nerf in order? You are paying an ept slot and 1 point for each ship that is equipped with mindlink. In return, you are less prone to blocks and stress, at the cost of restricted maneuvering for your whole list. Given that maneuvering part takes a huge proportion in this game, I'd say it's not overpowered. Currently, only Nick Belle's Asajj-Palob-Fenn & triple uboats are the only lists that makes the best use of Mindlink. if everybody's guess about further jumpmaster nerf is true, there is no need to nerf attanni mindlink further. Stress lists are already a good counter against mindlinks.

Edited by Grivoire

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nerfing Nerf Nerf Herding Nerfing Nerf Herder. Nerf You! 

Seriously, the worst mistake FFG did was last FAQ with Nothing But Nerf (I guess it is nerf or nothing right).:rolleyes: 

  1. Imperials are in a similar state after Wave 5, Ironically enough it was a variation of an old Wave 5 list that made it to the Top cut. So for now the Imperial Arc Dodging doctrine is out of the meta for now and as far as the spoilers are up nothing is coming shortly to change that. Maybe something from the movies I guess as they are set to go wave 2 (future-tech A-wing and future-tech Interceptor).
  2. Instead of nerfing everything I think counter play should be encouraged. Now of course the risk is power creep (you could look at TLT compared to 3 firepower PWT as an example). So what is in, well some of the big tough ships that have > 1 agility or regen. So bring back the alpha strikers but you have to keep the alpha strikers restricted to in arc. The problem with Jumpmasters is that they were alpha strikers which could attack out of arc in case they had no targets in arc.
  3. Old Survivors, well they don't become old for nothing. Sure Biggs keeps X-wings alive just as Corran Horn keeps E-wings around (although wasn't as popular). Face it thanks to accretion and power creep if it were not for those pilot abilities they would both be on the shelf. Now pilot abilities can be overcomed without a nerf. Biggs wasn't super dominant in the last two waves as he was now. Sort of funny but it is almost like elements of the rebel meta from Wave 3 and 4 are making their way to this one. Also remember Soontir, his pilot ability was one that kept him flying for the Emperor. However he got replaced by well better ship builds and a lot of counters to the token defense engine that Soontir had. So no need to errata.
  4. Jumpmansters, Well as I asked before how do you nerf jumpmasters. Still many people have started to throw in everything from flat out ban to increase the point cost and such. First of all I don't think FFG needs to make any new precedents with erratas such as a permanent point increase. Now something more temporary like a penalty list where pilots/upgrade cards on that list have a point increase IMHO is a much better option than a flat out pen & ink change.
  5. Do people forgot that the list that won worlds did not have mindlink?
  6. Indeed, Dark days for the Empire and the 1stOrder. As predicted once the Emperor has fallen the Galaxy has fallen into anarchy, a haven for corruption pirates, criminals, and disorder, the likes the Rebellion is too weak to suppress. However as I said the Empire will need to adopt new tactics to reclaim its glory. Sure Scum needs to be in the crosshairs and there should be some hate directed at them for the next couple of waves. Maybe something that adds additional stress when a ship executes an s-loops or T-rolls (which will slow down Jumpers a bit). Or something that exploits the typical mindlink scenario  of having both a stress and a focus token adding hits/crits/damage or removing focus/dice or something. I could see a "feerless" like EPT where if defender has both stress and focus add <crit> result, if has stress add <hit> result. You don't have to nerf everything for crying out loud.
Edited by Marinealver

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for sharing your views @Marinealver

Seriously, the worst mistake FFG did was last FAQ with Nothing But Nerf (I guess it is nerf or nothing right).

Yeah there's some pilots and upgrades waiting to be buffed too...Heavy Scyk was a nice change (saw some lists with these nifties at worlds).

2.Instead of nerfing everything I think counter play should be encouraged.

Unfortunately the majority of people is voluntarily herding themselves. So instead of brainstorming and trying lots of combination, they just wait for a winning combination before they start modifying a little bit here to suit their tastes. Funny that people is shocked when Tel Trevura won worlds whereas in other sides of the world it's a favourite pilot to fly.

3.Old Survivors, well they don't become old for nothing. Sure Biggs keeps X-wings alive just as Corran Horn keeps E-wings around (although wasn't as popular). Face it thanks to accretion and power creep if it were not for those pilot abilities they would both be on the shelf. Now pilot abilities can be overcomed without a nerf. Biggs wasn't super dominant in the last two waves as he was now. Sort of funny but it is almost like elements of the rebel meta from Wave 3 and 4 are making their way to this one. Also remember Soontir, his pilot ability was one that kept him flying for the Emperor. However he got replaced by well better ship builds and a lot of counters to the token defense engine that Soontir had. So no need to errata.

I get your point. when arc dodgers are back, Biggs may not be as strong as it currently is now. On Soontir though, I think he's not replaced by better ship builds. I think people just prefers lazier ships that requires minimum planning like taking a walk in the park. ;)

4. Jumpmansters, Well as I asked before how do you nerf jumpmasters. Still many people have started to throw in everything from flat out ban to increase the point cost and such. First of all I don't think FFG needs to make any new precedents with erratas such as a permanent point increase. Now something more temporary like a penalty list where pilots/upgrade cards on that list have a point increase IMHO is a much better option than a flat out pen & ink change.

I like your idea, but won't it be a bit too hard to keep track of these penalties as it deals with interaction of cards in a specific manner?

5.Do people forgot that the list that won worlds did not have mindlink?

I totally agree with this. Mindlink is well priced and perhaps the only solution for Scum action economy so far.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Grivoire said:

6. Attanni Mindlink

 

Is a nerf in order? You are paying an ept slot and 1 point for each ship that is equipped with mindlink. In return, you are less prone to blocks and stress, at the cost of restricted maneuvering for your whole list. Given that maneuvering part takes a huge proportion in this game, I'd say it's not overpowered. Currently, only Nick Belle's Asajj-Palob-Fenn & triple uboats are the only lists that makes the best use of Mindlink. if everybody's guess about further jumpmaster nerf is true, there is no need to nerf attanni mindlink further. Stress lists are already a good counter against mindlinks.

 

im sorry but how are stress lists "a godd counter against mindlink" ????

if one of the mindlink ships is double stressed the others only recieve one stress, only one of the mindlink ships has to do a green for all the others to get a focus, what exactly is the stresshog stopping them doing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, bageldrone said:

 

im sorry but how are stress lists "a godd counter against mindlink" ????

if one of the mindlink ships is double stressed the others only recieve one stress, only one of the mindlink ships has to do a green for all the others to get a focus, what exactly is the stresshog stopping them doing?

Because even if they still get their foci by the end of the day, their movements become largely predictable for you to set up a block/outmaneuvering position. And by the way, stresshog is not the only solution. lots of more maneuverable ships that can deal with attanni one way or the other. Either you stress them or take/burn their focus.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Grivoire said:

Because even if they still get their foci by the end of the day, their movements become largely predictable for you to set up a block/outmaneuvering position. And by the way, stresshog is not the only solution. lots of more maneuverable ships that can deal with attanni one way or the other. Either you stress them or take/burn their focus.

I think this remains a serious misconception of Mindlink lists. Stress really doesn't hurt them much at all. The  Protectorate and the Shadowcaster have such good greens they can easily get rid of stress, often not in a predictable way either. In fact, such lists are, if anything, less predictable than other stressed lists because Mindlink means they can get away without having to do a green to relieve stress since they still get their Focus anyway.

Blocking also doesn't really work too well because, again, Mindlink gets around it. Unless you manage to block the entire list.

This remains my biggest concern about Mindlink: the lack of counterplay. There's really not much you can do to stop the action economy, which makes it so frustrating to play against.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, bageldrone said:

 

im sorry but how are stress lists "a godd counter against mindlink" ????

if one of the mindlink ships is double stressed the others only recieve one stress, only one of the mindlink ships has to do a green for all the others to get a focus, what exactly is the stresshog stopping them doing?

It is, just not as weaponized as we are used to. Extremely powerful double-stressing tools are not anywhere near as good as we are used to. A source of single stress like R3-A2 on any normal ship, Rebel Captive, Tactician? They become a massive restriction on the Attanni lists dials. R3-A2 is very popular still because of this, but it is put on a greater variety of platforms, like Jess Pava or Biggs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Jike said:

I think this remains a serious misconception of Mindlink lists. Stress really doesn't hurt them much at all. The  Protectorate and the Shadowcaster have such good greens they can easily get rid of stress, often not in a predictable way either. In fact, such lists are, if anything, less predictable than other stressed lists because Mindlink means they can get away without having to do a green to relieve stress since they still get their Focus anyway.

Blocking also doesn't really work too well because, again, Mindlink gets around it. Unless you manage to block the entire list.

This remains my biggest concern about Mindlink: the lack of counterplay. There's really not much you can do to stop the action economy, which makes it so frustrating to play against.

To reiterate in another way, the focus is a little nifty single token that will not help a ship under focus fire *pun intended*. if said mindlinked ships are bumped/performed a white maneuver. You can easily move your ships to set in position. i.e Miranda at range two against a bumped/white maneuver fenn to shoot him torpedoes. You made your point on Stress and focus eating mechanics Not being hard counters to mindlink, but a ship getting a single focus token is not the end of the world. Neither do we want to shutdown mindlink lists completely. Play to its weakness and you'll quickly realize mindlink is not overpowered.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I shared earlier in another post, with the release of the newest wave 11 ships, we are seeing the escalation in the "ceiling" of the game (the good stuff being even better with each new release). 

I believe it would be very easy to "lower the floor" on the game and open the way for even more creativity with the community. I don't think the current game needs to be thrown away for a "2.0" version of the game, or that any cards like "Biggs" need to be banned to move forward. 

All it would take is to simply re-state what the "base game" looks like (2 TIEs vs 1 Xwing in the original starter, which translates into 8 academy TIEs vs 4 Rookie Pilots with torpedos ... That is the original base xwing game. My friends and I imagine a "2.0" base that doesn't break anything already released and can compete with the new, high-damage meta with better dials.

 

Here is what my store came up with in Springfield, Missouri:

X-wing 2.0 (lower the floor)
+++++++++++
"Rogue Sqdrn. Pilot"
Title, Xwing only
Cost 2 points
Your action bar gains the Barrel Roll action icon. 
After you execute a 2 bank maneuver, if you are not stressed, you may rotate your ship 180 degrees, then, receive 1 stress token.
++++++++++++++++
"Recruit" 
Title. TIEs only.
This card has negative point cost. (-2)
Non-unique pilots only.
Must be pilot skill 2 and lower.
This ship may not have any other upgrades or modifications assigned to it. 
++++++++++++++++++++

 

This new base game would look like 4 Rogue Sqdrn title rookie xwings with R2 Astromechs and Integrated Astromech (96 points) vs.10 "Recruit" title Academy TIEs (100points). This is how we lower the floor. I think this is xwing 2.0, without banning or changing anything about the current set of cards.

At 2 points, the Rogue Sqdrn title would not break the T70 (you couldn't use 4 in a list), but could be used on the t65 with the R2 Astromech (make all 1 and 2 speeds green) without giving the xwing green or white s-loops. The way it is worded gives them a red s-loop with a free action. This gives them more flying options on the board, which helps to "un-strangle" the player flying the original X-wings. 

The "Recruit" title could be used on all TIE variants and create new hardware swarm options (15 point Strikers with no Adaptive Alerons, 13 point TIE/fo, 14 point dry bombers, etc). This would be awesome for Imperials.

 

Don't nerf stuff or ban stuff, JUST LOWER THE FLOOR!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/8/2017 at 10:06 PM, Grivoire said:

2. Sabine Crew

 

Is a nerf in order? You are spending a crew slot & 2 points for an instant 1 damage each round that requires you to fly well. I believe she gives bombers a chance against arc dodgers. Also, I'd like to add that bombers are not the reason arc dodgers are gone. Recall that Soontir/Vader maintained their reign in wave 7 where K-wings already existed. Also Soontir never truly went out of meta, even today. The world just decided to turn their back on the Baron. Dark days for the empire.

Lol wut? Advanced slamming bombs onto people you move before and know exactly where they'll move after you've practiced it a handful of times is ludicrously easy. There is nothing about an int agent Warden "that requires you to fly well", only to not be blind.

Whether or not Sabine needs a nerf is up for debate. Personally I'd say either her or advanced slam, because she's really only abusive on the K-Wing. But please don't pretend she takes much in the way of skill to leverage effectively.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sabine + slamming is the rebel equivalent to imp arc dodging, I really don't see a problem. In the arc dodging meta u simply lost if u did not have intiative. Dodging someone's arc with a boost + barrel roll is just as easy and slamming onto someone with a bomb

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A way to nerf the Jumpmaster without erratum'ing the ship cost or upgrades would be to publish an erratum of all Jumpmaster pilots, adding the sentence "You must equip the <jumpmaster nerf> upgrade card paying its point cost as normal", and then create the card (even only as a virtual version or whatever), for example :

Manufacturing failure, title, 2 points 

Jumpmaster only 

If your pilot skill is 3 or lower, you lose the elite upgrade slot. 

(The card itself could be anything, ps4, or increasing the difficulty of each hard turn by one, or whatever) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Bucknife said:

As I shared earlier in another post, with the release of the newest wave 11 ships, we are seeing the escalation in the "ceiling" of the game (the good stuff being even better with each new release). 

I believe it would be very easy to "lower the floor" on the game and open the way for even more creativity with the community. I don't think the current game needs to be thrown away for a "2.0" version of the game, or that any cards like "Biggs" need to be banned to move forward. 

All it would take is to simply re-state what the "base game" looks like (2 TIEs vs 1 Xwing in the original starter, which translates into 8 academy TIEs vs 4 Rookie Pilots with torpedos ... That is the original base xwing game. My friends and I imagine a "2.0" base that doesn't break anything already released and can compete with the new, high-damage meta with better dials.

 

Here is what my store came up with in Springfield, Missouri:

X-wing 2.0 (lower the floor)
+++++++++++
"Rogue Sqdrn. Pilot"
Title, Xwing only
Cost 2 points
Your action bar gains the Barrel Roll action icon. 
After you execute a 2 bank maneuver, if you are not stressed, you may rotate your ship 180 degrees, then, receive 1 stress token.
++++++++++++++++
"Recruit" 
Title. TIEs only.
This card has negative point cost. (-2)
Non-unique pilots only.
Must be pilot skill 2 and lower.
This ship may not have any other upgrades or modifications assigned to it. 
++++++++++++++++++++

 

This new base game would look like 4 Rogue Sqdrn title rookie xwings with R2 Astromechs and Integrated Astromech (96 points) vs.10 "Recruit" title Academy TIEs (100points). This is how we lower the floor. I think this is xwing 2.0, without banning or changing anything about the current set of cards.

At 2 points, the Rogue Sqdrn title would not break the T70 (you couldn't use 4 in a list), but could be used on the t65 with the R2 Astromech (make all 1 and 2 speeds green) without giving the xwing green or white s-loops. The way it is worded gives them a red s-loop with a free action. This gives them more flying options on the board, which helps to "un-strangle" the player flying the original X-wings. 

The "Recruit" title could be used on all TIE variants and create new hardware swarm options (15 point Strikers with no Adaptive Alerons, 13 point TIE/fo, 14 point dry bombers, etc). This would be awesome for Imperials.

 

Don't nerf stuff or ban stuff, JUST LOWER THE FLOOR!

I just think they should switch to 150 point squads.  12 Academy pilots vs 4 Jumpmasters would be fun to watch.  Biggs would get vaporized 1st turn more consistently, so would be less attractive to include.  Jousting could come back in a big way, as jouster lists with more guns available would be more guaranteed to wipe a key target or 2 off the bat.  We'd also see more lists with 4+ ships like when the game started.  Fun times

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Joe Censored said:

I just think they should switch to 150 point squads.  12 Academy pilots vs 4 Jumpmasters would be fun to watch.  Biggs would get vaporized 1st turn more consistently, so would be less attractive to include.  Jousting could come back in a big way, as jouster lists with more guns available would be more guaranteed to wipe a key target or 2 off the bat.  We'd also see more lists with 4+ ships like when the game started.  Fun times

Maybe also allow the small epics? They work on the standard play area and are just so much fun!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Dear god 12 academies.....

I dont even think you could fly them in a solid formation, some of them would be kinda out of the loop (unable to get arc) and just serve as an Extra Life or something lol

My guess would be 2 formations that attempt to converge on a target.  But I haven't actually flown TIE swarm. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Joe Censored said:

My guess would be 2 formations that attempt to converge on a target.  But I haven't actually flown TIE swarm. 

I have. Second tournament i ever attended i ran 4Acads and 4Obsidians no upgrades. 8 seriously felt like the absolute max i could focus on a single target as the outskirt guys BARELY had arc, and turning was a nightmare.

Was one hell of a challenge though. I contribute most of my flying eyeballing skills to formation flying so many TIEs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, garciaj113 said:

Sabine + slamming is the rebel equivalent to imp arc dodging, I really don't see a problem. In the arc dodging meta u simply lost if u did not have intiative. Dodging someone's arc with a boost + barrel roll is just as easy and slamming onto someone with a bomb

 Well except you don't realistically have the potential to do more than 4 damage when you boost/roll out of someone's arc, really you're just happy if you still even have a shot on them, and they still could roll evades, so 1 shotting a TIE Defender is out of the question for one but not the other, yeah other than that totally equivalent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Sparklelord

but you are forgetting the fact that only the K-Wing can slam, every other bomber is pretty much unplayable (with the exception of Nym) and can be easily killed, which is why triple Ks don't really exist anymore, the only real Op bomb user is Miranda and it's not because of bombs. Bombs are really not that crazy of a threat because bombers suck and are only good against super mobile aces  with low hp. 

but the main point is both bombs and arc dodgers are not "fun" to play against because in both cases you feel hopeless. it's pretty much a rock - paper - scissors format bombs destroy aces, swarms (oddly) wreck bombers and aces wreck swarms 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, garciaj113 said:

@Sparklelord

but you are forgetting the fact that only the K-Wing can slam, every other bomber is pretty much unplayable (with the exception of Nym) and can be easily killed, which is why triple Ks don't really exist anymore, the only real Op bomb user is Miranda and it's not because of bombs. Bombs are really not that crazy of a threat because bombers suck and are only good against super mobile aces  with low hp. 

but the main point is both bombs and arc dodgers are not "fun" to play against because in both cases you feel hopeless. it's pretty much a rock - paper - scissors format bombs destroy aces, swarms (oddly) wreck bombers and aces wreck swarms 

The Imperials have a "bomber" with SLAM action but I doubt the mouse is letting them release it.

 

Speaking of which, could we get a cartoon of Mickey destroying or smashing an XG-1 Assault Gunboat? It seems to be the only reason we still don't have it yet.

Edited by Marinealver

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/9/2017 at 2:34 AM, bageldrone said:

 

im sorry but how are stress lists "a godd counter against mindlink" ????

if one of the mindlink ships is double stressed the others only recieve one stress, only one of the mindlink ships has to do a green for all the others to get a focus, what exactly is the stresshog stopping them doing?

Literally every other action in the game!!! It's not that hard to figure out.

 

On 5/9/2017 at 3:28 AM, Jike said:

I think this remains a serious misconception of Mindlink lists. Stress really doesn't hurt them much at all. The  Protectorate and the Shadowcaster have such good greens they can easily get rid of stress, often not in a predictable way either. In fact, such lists are, if anything, less predictable than other stressed lists because Mindlink means they can get away without having to do a green to relieve stress since they still get their Focus anyway.

Blocking also doesn't really work too well because, again, Mindlink gets around it. Unless you manage to block the entire list.

This remains my biggest concern about Mindlink: the lack of counterplay. There's really not much you can do to stop the action economy, which makes it so frustrating to play against.

You're right that there's a serious misconception, but wrong on every single other point.

The misconception is "focus is the only action that matters, and ships with focus tokens cannot be beaten."

Stress works

Blocking works

Killing ships to ruin the efficiency works

...if you make the loss of ALL of their other available actions matter. If you can't figure out how to do that, Attanni isn't the problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whoa why did this topic gets necroed :huh:

11 hours ago, Makaze said:

Lol wut? Advanced slamming bombs onto people you move before and know exactly where they'll move after you've practiced it a handful of times is ludicrously easy. There is nothing about an int agent Warden "that requires you to fly well", only to not be blind.

Whether or not Sabine needs a nerf is up for debate. Personally I'd say either her or advanced slam, because she's really only abusive on the K-Wing. But please don't pretend she takes much in the way of skill to leverage effectively.

I hope you're not thinking that arc-dodging with high PS aces is Skill, either. When I said fly well, I'm not talking about just setting the dial to move twice and drop bombs. Everyone can do that when you're within reach. I'm talking about how you deploy and plan the engagement. Have you ever seen K-wing bombers moving in circles doing nothing because Fenn Rau is sandwiched safely between a diagonally stacked Jumps? or Imperial aces consistently avoiding the bombing attempt? It's easy to drop bombs when you have the clear path, but not when you are against people who knows very well how to take on bomber lists. If your opponent gives your wardens the green signal to bomb, he deserves it

The mat has six pieces of rocks to move safely. You can't Advance SLAM into a ship strategically placed next to a rock, can you? And I haven't even started discussing how today's meta lists can easily nuke / alpha strike the Sabine carrier before it even begins to drop bombs! Also intel agent doesn't help you when your opponent foresaw your plan. It just lets you know that your plan is screwed earlier. You know that feeling when you know what he's going to do but can't do anything about it at all? exactly.

Winning a game with bomber lists is normal. Winning a championship with bomber lists takes real effort to accomplish.

Edited by Grivoire

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think there is a misconception of what an Arc Dodger is and how it exists or not in the meta. 

When people say Arc Dodger they think of Fel or Vader who are pure Arc Dodgers. That is their thing and it is pretty much their only thing. Fel at the right range is possibly also a Tank (he shrugs off damage) but only from incoming fire. 

But just because Fel doesn't like bombs and Vader doesn't like TLT (he's not the only ship like this) doesn't mean they are the only Arc Dodgers. 

In fact some of the best Arc Dodgers are large base turrets that mostly do not care about bombs. 

Dengar, Dash, the old Engine Han and even Engine RAC all dodge arcs like crazy, have turrets, can tank some bombs and have the upgrade slots and PS (for the most part) to grant them pseudo actions that allow them to use their reposition effects or just bump and avoid shots that way. 

Arc Dodging isn't dead, it's just the ships that do it best right now also do a bunch of other things pretty well. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2017-05-09 at 0:06 AM, Grivoire said:

Hi guys, this is a purely subjective analysis on the upgrades/pilots that were/are subjects of hot debate in the ffg forum. I do not have the mathematical skills of MajorJuggler or other extraordinaires so do take my views with a sea worth of salt.

1. Twin Laser Turret
Is no longer relevant to the nerf rage. Both its counter (Arc dodgers) and its breakfast (Fat PWTs) are largely out of the game. I personally believe TLT will actually become a necessary evil to balance the upcoming meta, as evidenced by its appearance in TIE Aggressor.

2. Sabine Crew
Is a nerf in order? You are spending a crew slot & 2 points for an instant 1 damage each round that requires you to fly well. I believe she gives bombers a chance against arc dodgers. Also, I'd like to add that bombers are not the reason arc dodgers are gone. Recall that Soontir/Vader maintained their reign in wave 7 where K-wings already existed. Also Soontir never truly went out of meta, even today. The world just decided to turn their back on the Baron. Dark days for the empire.

3. Biggs
Ahh, Biggs. The demon lord of the rebellion. When you saw X-Wing as the most played rebel ships in worlds, you know it's not X-Wing. It's Biggs™. Players have been calling incessantly for its nerf, even after his ability is partially nerfed. I'm sure that the devs are treading a difficult path here. On one side, his ability limits design space for potential T-65 fixes. On the other side, a lot of rebel ships have low agility and relies on Biggs to tank their aggro. 

Biggs being the one left standing on the last moments of Worlds 2017 final is a testament to the fact that the partial nerf works. But what if the opponent didn't carry ordnance? As it stands now, Biggs as the most prevalent rebel ships could potentially restrict other list building to either include ordnance, or face gang beating from Biggs' friends. As such, I agree with the majority that an errata is in order.

Limiting his ability to once per round is a popular suggestion. I personally advocate changing his ability to require focus in order to force opposing ships to attack him, if able much like shield projector upgrade card. In this way, we get to see the focus sharing shenanigans that was unique to rebels back in play, and Biggs can rightly protect his allies for as long as he is focused.

What if we add wording on integrated astromech to enable T65 & T70 to allow equipping an additional mod? Won't that solve the problem? Repositioning is the biggest issue with T65, and durability is the biggest issue with T70.

4. Jumpmaster 5000
I think Alex cringes when he saw Jumpmaster won the worlds again, but maybe that's just me ;). Although I personally feel that the world's champion list is totally fine (his maneuvering skills are what brought him there, very precise), I agree with the majority where increasing the base cost by 2 points is probably overdue. The upgrade cards aren't the problem, the chassis is. Currently Dengar is 45 pts with punishing one title. In comparison, Dash starts at 48 pts with HLC, 45 pts with Mangler at PS7. Non-Rolling PS9 Han Solo is 46 pts and bro-do-you-even-kturn PS8 Chiraneau is 46 pts. I'm sure everyone agrees that Double tapping is one of the best abilities in the game, and with a white Sloop and 1-hard + Barrel Roll combo, it isn't hard to achieve too. As for the generics, 2 pts effectively removes the extra munitions so not only that they have to do a proper maneuvering, they also have to be even more selective in their target priority. By the way, why do every imperial large ships except the most useless one cannot K-turn? 

5. Emperor Palpatine
The X7 nerf is a good call from FFG on both reasoning and execution grounds. It is a logical solution to the issue, but Palpatine's nerf is an undeserved one. He brings certainty to a faction that is almost entirely dependant on RNG, and the 12.5% cost of a full list justifies that ability. With the nerf, barely anything within the faction (including palpatine himself) could perform consistently apart from X7 Defenders, Omega Leader and The InquisitorHeed me folks: If what he does is handing an extra evade to imperial aces once every round,  Major Stridan gives more and does it better than palpatine ever could. I would go so far as to say that an un-nerfed Palpatine in a lambda shuttle is the budget version of Major Stridan with proper loadout.

6. Attanni Mindlink
Is a nerf in order? You are paying an ept slot and 1 point for each ship that is equipped with mindlink. In return, you are less prone to blocks and stress, at the cost of restricted maneuvering for your whole list. Given that maneuvering part takes a huge proportion in this game, I'd say it's not overpowered. Currently, only Nick Belle's Asajj-Palob-Fenn & triple uboats are the only lists that makes the best use of Mindlink. if everybody's guess about further jumpmaster nerf is true, there is no need to nerf attanni mindlink further. Stress lists are already a good counter against mindlinks.

1: TLT now has the hardest possible counter: Nym

2: You are contradicting exactly what almost everyone think. Would you please explain why you think that? IMO Bombs are not the only reason why aces are out but they were "the cherry on the cake". Green dices are statistically inferior to red ones. When ship/pilots can throw at you 3-4-5 fully modded reds the fragile ship gets in trouble. Add to that the proliferation of ability/upgrades that bypass defense altogether and you get what we have at the moment. As per list juggler Soontir IS out of the meta (why write that part so small?)

3: Instead of finding a solution for Biggs they added a way to make him more durable with the Gunship. Unless a nerf is coming thats just another bad design decision.

4: A fully loaded Dengar is around 10 pts cheaper than the best Imperial large ship (RAC) AND is better. I dont think adding just 2 little points to the cost will change the problem. I agree with you that Imperial needs a good, maneuverable (and cheaper) large ship. IMO the Sith Interceptor would be a perfect occasion to do that. We would get both Maul and Vader as pilots :-)

5: IMO they could have done both nerf without going overboard. Defender: make them lose the evade when hitting obstacle or ships but not under stress. Palp: Keep it's ability as it was but change the timing to before reroll and other mods. Palp and defenders might have been the power creeps of the Imperials (i dont think so). Problem is they removed them without making the same corrections to the other 2 factions. Another problem is Scums have way more OP stuff than just the JMK: Fenn, Asajj, mindlink and now Nym.

6: Tell me how is it a problem for defenders to get a free evade no matter what when it's not for any scum ship with an EPT to get a free focus no matter what. It's not hard to have at least one of your ship being able to get a focus each round. Even when your other ships do red moves as long as the highest PS does a green you are fine. IMO focus play a much bigger role in the game than evades... Whats funny is if you make mindlink and Imperial upgrade, it would be much less OP. Scums also have all the other tools to get great action economy. K4 + mindlink = almost guaranteed fully modded attacks every rounds...

Edited by Thormind

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...