Ok so you 'fixed' Vader in Skirmish, FFG. Now how about everyone else?

[patrickmahan 297]

There are still a number of broken units in the campaign including Darth Vader himself still.

Other figures that need changes;

AT-ST

RGC

IG-88

Boba Fett

Chewbacca

Han Solo

[kowagaru 65]

IG88 already has a fix.

[ryanjamal 1,229]

Chewie and Han fixes are coming, either in the new expansion or the one after (my bet is the one after, but I'd love to be wrong). It could be that the AT-ST fix is the new AT-PT (did I get that right?) in the new expansion, so a replacement rather than a fix. Boba's fox is coming too, I'd wager. I don't know if we'll see an RGC fix though. Here's to hoping! 

-ryanjamal 

[patrickmahan 297]

Ok, but where are the fixes for them in campaign? Or does FFG not care about campaign balance.

[ryanjamal 1,229]

6 minutes ago, patrickmahan said:

Ok, but where are the fixes for them in campaign? Or does FFG not care about campaign balance.

This game has a campaign mode?!? ?

But yeah I don't know. I haven't even played through all the campaigns yet, so I wouldn't know about that. A lot of times these heavy hitters are just given to you as a set deployment, right? And plus there's the nemesis deck, that does... something that helps with this?

-ryanjamal

[Soulflame 103]

1 hour ago, ryanjamal said:

Chewie and Han fixes are coming, either in the new expansion or the one after (my bet is the one after, but I'd love to be wrong). It could be that the AT-ST fix is the new AT-PT (did I get that right?) in the new expansion, so a replacement rather than a fix. Boba's fox is coming too, I'd wager. I don't know if we'll see an RGC fix though. Here's to hoping! 

-ryanjamal 

Seeing that the Q2 kit features an alt art RGC, I'm guessing he will also get fixed in the future.

I mean they have known for a while that he is so-so, so why make a promo of him and not say Vinto (who they probably knew was both balanced and popular). Of course it is not 100%, but I am willing to take the odds.

[kowagaru 65]

2 hours ago, patrickmahan said:

Ok, but where are the fixes for them in campaign? Or does FFG not care about campaign balance.

The figures were designed and balanced for campaign first, for at least what was in the core. Skirmish was an accident and didn't start until later in production and so didn't get as much love. If you want, you could always just play with them as if they had the skirmish upgrades if you want.

[cleardave 741]

36 minutes ago, kowagaru said:

 If you want, you could always just play with them as if they had the skirmish upgrades if you want.

This would be my suggestion as well.  The rules as written would prevent you from taking the Skirmish Upgrade cards that fix these units, but then these were written under the impression that the points were balanced and fair, which they aren't.

You're not going to want to take Han in a campaign as an Ally and give up all that threat for a so-so unit, just like the Imperial player isn't going to want to use Vader and cash out all their Threat just to deploy him, and probably lose the mission as a result of putting all the eggs in one avoidable basket.

I say go for it, with the Skirmish Upgrades.

Also, the Nemesis deck will make them much more useful in general, for campaign play, at the expense of buffing your other units, so there's that to consider if you want to play with "Heroic" units as the Imperial player.

I think the problem with the AT-ST and Weiss by extension in the campaign is that they're stuck outside, which isn't the most flexible thing in some missions.  I've seen them used to great effect as a tarpit to slow the heroes down, so there's that.

Expect some kind of Massive vehicle fix as well in the Heart box.  It would be nice if Brawlers got a few card buffs too, so The Champ can come out more in Skirmish.

[neosmagus 623]

They're balanced for campaign.  They're not meant to be used in every mission. Like Leia in the core campaign we just finished.  In some missions she was a massive help. In others she was a hindrance, giving the Imperial player royal guards that hurt us. And there's several mechanics now that reduce their cost, so any more tampering really isn't necessary.

It was only skirmish where they were really broken.

[ManateeX 1,293]

The thing about the campaign is that it is presumably being played by a bunch of friends, or at least people who have the capacity to get along long enough to come up with some houserules if things seem to be out of whack.  If you think that Vader is unbalanced as he is in campaign then by all means change his card.  And hey, look, they've even released a handy skirmish upgrade to give you some ideas!  

[ManateeX 1,293]

In all seriousness, though, as neosmagus said the figures are more balanced in campaign, particularly in missions where they are placed there by the mission rules.  Using this new Vader and his extra movement in the 'Dark Obsession' mission could really make things tough on the rebels.

At the same time he's really not worth saving up 18 threat for.  What I've heard people do (I think with some success) is to use the original version when the character is a part of the mission and the new/errataed version when the empire is buying them with threat or when the rebels are bringing them as allies.

Also, as an aside, in the spoiler article they mentioned that Vader was one of three skirmish upgrades for old cards.  We don't know who the other two are yet, but of the ones on your list I think that Han, Chewie and Fett would be the likely candidates.

[cnemmick 819]

9 hours ago, ryanjamal said:

Chewie and Han fixes are coming, either in the new expansion or the one after (my bet is the one after, but I'd love to be wrong).

Han and Chewie's fix being in the expansion after HotE is my guess also.

Since the Heart of the Empire article mentions 3 skirmish upgrades for "the game's most iconic figures". Since it's iconic figures and not iconic characters, I think we can include the following as possibilities:

• Boba Fett
• Dengar
• AT-ST/General Weiss (I can imagine a skirmish card that address both of them)
• Royal Guard Champion (I personally don't consider him iconic, but I can understand how other folks would do so)
• Storm/Snow/Heavy Troopers

My preference would be Boba Fett & AT-ST/General Weiss. But I'll take whatever they give us -- especially a Dengar fix to make him attack twice to be the ultimate Harmful machine!

[ryanjamal 1,229]

Ooh, I missed that line! I knew there were three skirmish upgrades but I didn't spot that they specified that all three were fixes. That's awesome! Han and Chewie are my bet then, but Boba is a good bet as well. Ahhhh, this expansion is going to be awesome :-)

-ryanjamal

[Quigman 91]

Honestly, it's impossible to guess.

Who's to say the fix isn't for Diala, or Fenn, or Saska?

I will speculate that the fix for Han and Chewie will be something along the lines of "when Han and Chewie are deployed together they both get ???? and you may add an additional 5 deployment points to your total" so as to fix 2 iconic figures with 1 card.

I feel a generic vehicle fix will do nicely too.

Give me Yoda dammit!

[miguelj 343]

10 hours ago, patrickmahan said:

Ok, but where are the fixes for them in campaign? Or does FFG not care about campaign balance.

First, there is literally nothing preventing you from house ruling any changes to the characters that you want, provided your other players agree on them. 

And, as others have mentioned, the missions are balanced around the figures stat lines as they are, particularly on missions where they are in reserved groups. 

[Union 430]

5 hours ago, neosmagus said:

They're balanced for campaign.

 

LMAO this is so not true.  They are so much WORSE in campaign.

Without command cards even the Bantha is overpointed and it's in a far better place than any of these others.  They're all so overpointed compared to troopers it's absurd.  They cost so much you have to save up which means you're giving up tons of damage and giving the Rebels free turns.  I take IG-88 when I'm playing really bad Rebel players and I want to lose, he is such a blackhole of threat he can make even the worst Rebel players come out victorious.

 On the Rebel side these guys are so overpointed they will lose you missions too.  They give the Imperials more than enough threat to put enough damage on the board to murder the ally and leave them a free squad or more of troopers.  It's slitting your throat to put Han or Chewie on the board.

 All of these guys are complete garbage in campaign, they're not even worth considering unless you get them for free for some reason.

[neosmagus 623]

35 minutes ago, Union said:

 

LMAO this is so not true.  They are so much WORSE in campaign.

Without command cards even the Bantha is overpointed and it's in a far better place than any of these others.  They're all so overpointed compared to troopers it's absurd.  They cost so much you have to save up which means you're giving up tons of damage and giving the Rebels free turns.  I take IG-88 when I'm playing really bad Rebel players and I want to lose, he is such a blackhole of threat he can make even the worst Rebel players come out victorious.

 On the Rebel side these guys are so overpointed they will lose you missions too.  They give the Imperials more than enough threat to put enough damage on the board to murder the ally and leave them a free squad or more of troopers.  It's slitting your throat to put Han or Chewie on the board.

 All of these guys are complete garbage in campaign, they're not even worth considering unless you get them for free for some reason.

They're expensive, and yes, this can be a problem of you're saving threat to bring them out in some missions...  Unless you're using threat provided by rebels bringing allies.   Also they're not overpointed, Vader and the RGC are pretty badass.  If my group wanted to reduce the costs, I would expect to nerf the abilities as well.

Besides... I don't want to see Han and Chewie and Vader every mission...  They should appear now and then, when the moment is right.

But maybe that's just my play style.

[subtrendy 684]

This should probably be the motto of these forums: campaign is a difficult beast.

 

Some people like to have a campaign with an emphasis on fun and theme.  Some want a competitive experience.  Most missions' balance lies entirely on the hundreds of combinations possible with classes, allies, threat, placement in campaign, etc.  

 

Point being, Han and Chewie can be useful to bring along (particularly Chewie, as a tank) but they're not going to be as good as someone like Leia who tends to be more adaptable.

 

Maybe they need adjustments, I don't know.  But if we're getting new campaign versions of these characters, I'd rather not have attachment fixes and just get entirely new deployment cards for them.

[FatherTurin 1,818]

As to heroes and villains in campaign: both sides have ways to somewhat mitigate the cost issues (Murne and Nemeses), but both of them work far better with more fairly costed characters.  Dropping Terro or Jabba at will into the core campaign is far more insane than using your class to make Vader kinda useful.  For the same reason, cheap Leia or less expensive Jedi Luke are MUCH more attractive than a still horribly overcosted Chewie.  To that end I suggest just using the skirmish upgrades on characters if you are buying them with threat, but keeping them standard if you get them as part of the mission.  "Rogue One" Vader will tear the Rebel players up in some missions where he comes standard, as others have said.

As for the other upgrades, I think Boba is a good bet. There is an good argument that since this is Coruscant and we have the emperor coming, maybe a fix for the RGC makes more sense, but I think they will do one imperial, one mercenary and one Rebel.  I think the Rebel one will be Chewie since he needs more love than Han, but maybe as someone else said, a card that helps them both if you field both.  "Something something Life Debt"

[Uninvited Guest 834]

16 minutes ago, FatherTurin said:

As for the other upgrades, I think Boba is a good bet. There is an good argument that since this is Coruscant and we have the emperor coming, maybe a fix for the RGC makes more sense, but I think they will do one imperial, one mercenary and one Rebel.  I think the Rebel one will be Chewie since he needs more love than Han, but maybe as someone else said, a card that helps them both if you field both.  "Something something Life Debt"

I doubt that a Boba Fett fix is a priority,  only because not everyone will have every character that doesn't come in the Core.  Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see him improved but Han, Chewie, and RGC are more likely candidates.  Also, as pointed out above, the Jawa pack has an IG-88 fix so I don't expect it will be one per faction either.

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

Or both players could just use overpriced, under performing units when it seems cool to do so. By doing so they'd balance each other out in the name of something called "atmosphere" with help from a little thing I like to call "sportsmanship".  

[VadersMarchKazoo 786]

On 5/9/2017 at 5:24 AM, ManateeX said:

In all seriousness, though, as neosmagus said the figures are more balanced in campaign, particularly in missions where they are placed there by the mission rules.  Using this new Vader and his extra movement in the 'Dark Obsession' mission could really make things tough on the rebels.

At the same time he's really not worth saving up 18 threat for.  What I've heard people do (I think with some success) is to use the original version when the character is a part of the mission and the new/errataed version when the empire is buying them with threat or when the rebels are bringing them as allies.

Also, as an aside, in the spoiler article they mentioned that Vader was one of three skirmish upgrades for old cards.  We don't know who the other two are yet, but of the ones on your list I think that Han, Chewie and Fett would be the likely candidates.

Right now, with only Vader and IG fixes, it seems like using the skirmish upgrades in campaign as IP is a little selfish and maybe hard to justify to your rebels. BUT, if Han and Chewie get fixed, and you are willing give your Rebels access to the fixed ally cards too, then I wouldn't feel guilty at all. Plus, you'd maintain better balance this way.

[FrogTrigger 1,783]

One thing I've tried is that if the heroes bring their Ally, say Obi-Wan, then I have to use that 10 threat towards a Villain of my own. Sometimes I have earned one and can do this, other times I haven't yet so I "draft" one in just for that specific mission and generally I try to pick a slightly weaker villain. I find this is much more fun than just optimizing it with Elite Stormies and blowing the Ally up in one round.

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

2 hours ago, FrogTrigger said:

One thing I've tried is that if the heroes bring their Ally, say Obi-Wan, then I have to use that 10 threat towards a Villain of my own. Sometimes I have earned one and can do this, other times I haven't yet so I "draft" one in just for that specific mission and generally I try to pick a slightly weaker villain. I find this is much more fun than just optimizing it with Elite Stormies and blowing the Ally up in one round.

Huzzah! That is how tabletop games work best. When we actually engage in PLAY, instead of computing them to death. 

[Stompburger 685]

6 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Huzzah! That is how tabletop games work best. When we actually engage in PLAY, instead of computing them to death. 

Well, to some people, the computation is the fun. It's like a big puzzle to solve! I myself like analyzing games, but I can understand the desire to engage in the theme more, and not make a math problem out of it. I do have to remind myself sometimes that the goal is to have fun, not just find a solution to a problem.