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Evil Doctor T

Core Set Balance After a Couple of Weeks

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1 minute ago, Vineheart01 said:

Not to mention if you use kari's listbuilding ability you are adding far, far more cost to your list than Ardus has over Kari in his own cost.

So in the end, either Kari is just a standalone powerhouse or a major chunk of your list.

And in any event, Lord Hawthorne is strictly superior in almost every way (for my particular playstyle, anyway).  Playing around with ranks and unit configurations, super tanky (hello, defense 5) and the ability to deal "thorns" damage (to shamelessly steal a Diablo term).  I do think that mortal strikes will be a concern, and I also feel that his sweeping strike/dawnblade build is a trap.  All in all though, he is the expansion I am most looking forward to.

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Exactly. If we did a mirror match and i had a couple 2x1 Crossbowmen for a measily 38pts while you did the Haw(Thorns) build, you would be focused so hard on getting rid of the Mortal Strike sources you could easily be blinded to the flank im doing.
I prey on such behavior lol. Most people have caught on to what im doing but thats the beauty of that strat: i dont care if you see what im doing. You cant stop both tactics at once

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23 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Exactly. If we did a mirror match and i had a couple 2x1 Crossbowmen for a measily 38pts while you did the Haw(Thorns) build, you would be focused so hard on getting rid of the Mortal Strike sources you could easily be blinded to the flank im doing.
I prey on such behavior lol. Most people have caught on to what im doing but thats the beauty of that strat: i dont care if you see what im doing. You cant stop both tactics at once

Haw(Thorns).  Named here folks.  When it shows up at the first RWMG worlds, remember to give credit where credit is due.

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I'm now 2-2 playing only Waiqar, and only with 1 core set each.

My over all impression is that it is easier to play Daqan, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are the more powerful army. The Waiqar player needs to get some blight on his opponents and protect the archers from getting wiped out in turn 2. But if you can accomplish that and make some good choices along the way, Waiqar actually seem stronger to me.

Then again, I have a small sample size of games and the games I've won were much closer than the games I've lost, so I reserve the right to change my mind later.

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The problem is that there are some excellent ways to get rid of blight. Specially anoying the war crier. A smart daqan player can engage with almost no blight on his troops: preventing cavalry from getting blighted by moving 4 units (that's initiative 7, so the carrion lancer and archers will be outside range) or making move + regroup first turn with spearmen almost immunize against blight. Carrion lancers find it hard to use their skill on flanks and archers are quite dice dependant and might not always get a surge on dice (it is likely but not sure).

Carrion lancers would be a lot more powerful if their skill acction were in the second dial (move and then blight), because a smart daqan player won't be enter their action range in turn 1 and will charge in turn 2. They also have the chance to do a 6 units movement to engage carrion lancers or archers without giving them a chance to blight (they don't attack, but don't get attacked either).

Daqan have it very easy to prevent waiqar from using their synergies and therefore having a serious advantage. Of course not always, they'll have to play carefully.

Of course things will change, as far as the combat ingenuity is released. That will grant a blight and we will be able to place even 3 or 4 in a single row, which will not be the nemesis of daqan (as far as regroup elliminates all banes).

The good new is that many troops are very synergy promising, For example, every time we recieve a new unit with surge skills or new generic or waiqar upgrade cards with surge skills, Ardus may recieve it. Not only Ardus, but also reanimates with him as a champion.

 

 

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So far out of 6 games playing with the Waiqar I have managed to only win one time and the margin of victory was not that significant while the loses where often won by over 100 points.   While I wouldn't be so bold as to say that their is an unbalance, I will say that playing the Waiqar is considerably more complex.  This largely because the army is a lot more sensitive to mistakes and completely dependent on getting fairly technical synergies off.  You need to balance a lot of things to be success.

To win with Waiqar you need to make sure that

1. Your Archers are in good position to blight.  They are the key unit in your army.  In the core set they are considerably less relevant but with combat ingenuity they become the single most important units in your army.  In general, without Blight you can't win unless you simply roll lucky and your opponent rolls really badly and even then its really a 50/50.  Blight is everything.

2. Your Lancers are always flanking, always close to Ardus, Never in a position of being flanked or being charged.  Lancers can be utterly useless or they can be the key to winning the end game.  Making sure you leverage them at the right time and in the right place is vital to succeess.  2x1 is best with these, solo Lancers are generally not very good.

3. You must outmaneuver the very maneuverable Cavalry and have clear strategy for keeping them both blighted and busy.   With Wind Runes Calvary have unstoppable mobility, as the Undead their is no defense other then simply overwhelming them and good prediction about what they will attempt to do.  You need a solid plan, if they are allowed to flank charge at their leisure you will lose the game 100% of the time.  Dealing with them well is absolutely critical.

4. You must have a good strategy (position of Lancers generally) for taking out Kari,  If you allow Kari to do her damage throughout a match you will almost certainly lose.  Her damage potential is overwhelming.  You need to take her out and you need to do it early.

In general unless all 4 of these elements are executed well else the chances of you winning aren't great.  As a whole you stand virtually no chance of winning a match in a straight up fight, Blight is key to the whole battle you must be successful with blight or you WILL lose.  This is largely because Daiqan will 1. Always attack first and 2. Always move first.  This can be turned into an advantage, but again, positioning, timing and execution have to be really well done, else this is always a disadvantage.

That may seem dire but the truth is that with Waiqar you have to get out of the mindset of "attacking".  The undead are a defensive army, you don't have to try to figure out how you will approach, charge and outmaneuver your opponent.  Simply put, you won't, not unless your playing against a weak opponent.  The undead generally win sustained battles, they are kings of attrition and its not about killing opposing units its about disabling them.  

I do believe that Waiqar gain far more benefits from the expansions then the human army.  Key cards like Combat Ingenuity are going to re-define the impact of units like archers who now will average 2 blights per attack and will commonly put 3 blights on a unit per shot.  Consider how cheap they are as well, 3 2x1 units with combat ingenuity costs you a meer 72 points.  For 72 points you can effectively prevent up to 3 units from even getting to roll dice on attacks, your opponent will be spending his time rallying because what choice does he have. This played out in my last game and effectively my opponent did his first damage in the game at about round 6 and there really was no defense for him and quite literally no other strategic option.  He had no choice but to approach me, he had to go through the firing line and he had to get to the archers.  In the meantime the rest of my 128 point army was dropping trays.

Its a complex strategy, it requires good positioning, solid understanding of your opponents dials a (aka his options), good timing and a bit of luck (you need to roll those bolts or your screwed) as archers that don't blight are basically really crappy reanimates as well as good match ups.  Deployment is key, timing initiatives, tracking the impact of runes.  I mean, yeah, a lot has to come together for you.

On the flip side for the human army its pretty straightforward, every units is pretty independent.  Strictly speaking they just need to time things right so they get their charges off, they can generally cripple units in a single volley, so the strategy for the most part is "charge in and kill everything".  There is virtually no synergies to worry about other then countering the Waiqar synergies.

 

Edited by BigKahuna

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The problem is that many people in the forum tell you off if you say that.

The main problem is the assumption that we are able to generate a lot of blight and take advantage on it, while in fact at least daqan have ATM enough countermeasures.

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8 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

2. Your Lancers are always flanking, always close to Ardus, Never in a position of being flanked or being charged.  Lancers can be utterly useless or they can be the key to winning the end game.  Making sure you leverage them at the right time and in the right place is vital to succeess.  2x1 is best with these, solo Lancers are generally not very good.

I agree with everything in your post except the 2x1 Lancers - it seems to me that two solo Lancers will perform better in almost all cases, since blight spitting and mortal striking don't benefit from the increased threat. 

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8 hours ago, druchii7 said:

The problem is that many people in the forum tell you off if you say that.

The main problem is the assumption that we are able to generate a lot of blight and take advantage on it, while in fact at least daqan have ATM enough countermeasures.

 I keep seeing people complaining about how easy it is for Daqan to deal with Blight. It sounds like you are in that camp. Are you playing with only the content in the core set or are you using upgrades that have been spoiled as well?

If you are only using the core content I can see how blight might be underwhelming. If you're using all of the spoiled upgrades, I'd like to know how the Daqan players in your games are getting rid of all the blight. I'm usually getting 2-3 tokens per round on at least two different units. Sitting around rallying instead of moving or attacking seems doesn't seem like an effective way to deal with it. If you slow roll and build up initiative tokens you can get rid of the blight for a round or so but that's not something that can be sustained. I haven't tried Lord Hawthorne yet. He seems like he'll be some help but if he's using his skill to keep your squad stocked up with initiative he isn't running around throwing dice at stuff.

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5 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

 Are you playing with only the content in the core set or are you using upgrades that have been spoiled as well?

If you are only using the core content I can see how blight might be underwhelming. If you're using all of the spoiled upgrades, I'd like to know how the Daqan players in your games are getting rid of all the blight. I'm usually getting 2-3 tokens per round on at least two different units. Sitting around rallying instead of moving or attacking seems doesn't seem like an effective way to deal with it. If you slow roll and build up initiative tokens you can get rid of the blight for a round or so but that's not something that can be sustained. I haven't tried Lord Hawthorne yet. He seems like he'll be some help but if he's using his skill to keep your squad stocked up with initiative he isn't running around throwing dice at stuff.

Yes, my friends are reluctant to play any nonpublished card (and in Spain we recieve the products 1 week later). I know some cards will be a true revulsive, specially combat ingenuity. ATM archers usually do 0-1 blight. Specially if you cannot reroll. But in the future they'll place 1+ blights, granting.

Some cards such as tempered steel, close quarters targetting, moment of inspiration, etc will also help us to do powerful combos.

Rune golems and Kari have white regroup. That'll let them a chance to prevent the carnage, but I admit that it's a very serious combo.

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9 minutes ago, druchii7 said:

Yes, my friends are reluctant to play any nonpublished card (and in Spain we recieve the products 1 week later). I know some cards will be a true revulsive, specially combat ingenuity. ATM archers usually do 0-1 blight. Specially if you cannot reroll. But in the future they'll place 1+ blights, granting.

Some cards such as tempered steel, close quarters targetting, moment of inspiration, etc will also help us to do powerful combos.

Rune golems and Kari have white regroup. That'll let them a chance to prevent the carnage, but I admit that it's a very serious combo.

That definitely explains the disconnect I'm seeing.

As more units hit the table with upgrades that need to be readied, bane tokens create a dilemma on whether to ready exhausted upgrades or to clear the bane token.
The problem with rally on the right dial is that the rally doesn't happen until your attack has already happened.  

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I also think there is definitely a design space for an upgrade that passes out blight, not unlike the banner that passes out panic tokens.  The Waiqar infantry upgrade (has that been spoiled yet?) or the second hero for Waiqar would both be good places for that.

Back when X-Wing started, Rebels were at a severe disadvantage due to how good tie swarms were.  Then other things came along and changed it.  It also just may be that Daqan is a bad matchup for Waiqar, but that would be two rock/paper/scissors for my taste (plus would make it odd for the core set to have imbalanced factions).  I will retain hope for future upgrades making it less of an uphill battle for Waiqar.

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Yeah i almost prefer Rally on the primary dial.
Secondary dial its somewhat useful as you can immediately dump anything you got from bumping things, but it does jack squat about dumping anything before you attack or move and thats the main time i'd want it.

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11 minutes ago, FatherTurin said:

I also think there is definitely a design space for an upgrade that passes out blight, not unlike the banner that passes out panic tokens.  The Waiqar infantry upgrade (has that been spoiled yet?) or the second hero for Waiqar would both be good places for that.

 

One of the banners in the infantry command pack assigns a blight token when the unit bearing it is involved in a collision with an enemy unit.

Upgrade%20-%20Blighted%20Vexillum%20Bear

 

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19 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Yeah i almost prefer Rally on the primary dial.
Secondary dial its somewhat useful as you can immediately dump anything you got from bumping things, but it does jack squat about dumping anything before you attack or move and thats the main time i'd want it.

In the second dial it has certain advantages: you can control the initiative. Are you going to be crushed by the carrion lancers? then select a quick initiative skill and then regroup. You expect to finish the turn with blight? pick a slow initiative skill and elliminate those blights at the end.

WWHSD the drawback in that upgrade card is that it screams "please shoot me" out loud. But it should make the difference in certain ocasions.

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49 minutes ago, Bhelliom said:

I agree with everything in your post except the 2x1 Lancers - it seems to me that two solo Lancers will perform better in almost all cases, since blight spitting and mortal striking don't benefit from the increased threat. 

Yeah I have to disagree with you but I understand where your coming from I thought as you did for many games, it lasted about as long as it took people in my group to figure out how this really works.    

The main issue is that your two main targets (Kari and Golems) both have White Rally's as modifiers.  They can remove your blight at their leisure.  The second issue is that once your engaged with them you can't blight them with Lancers anyway.  Hence a Lancer coming at Kari or a Golem with "Blight and Charge" in mind would really only be able to pull it off if your opponent simply let you or was for some reason not expecting the obvious play. Simply put, it doesn't work.

The issue with a solo Lancer is that it doesn't stand a chance in a fight with Either a Golem Kari unless they are blighted.  A solo Lancer must have a perfect roll to do a damage to a Golem (1 Hit on each blue die and double hit on red) and with Kari he needs 3 hits 4 times (which will typically take you 8 rounds to accomplish statistically with a solo lancer).  Which means without Blight, a solo Lancer simply can't kill Kari or Golems.

Solo Lancers against any other unit like Spearmen and Calvary are not going to fare any better and mortal wounding spearmen is pretty pointless.  I suppose their is something to be said about Calvary, but you have a similar problem as with Kari and Golems, they simply rally at 3 and defend, so the Lancer will not mortal wound them even if it manages to blight and get engaged (due to initiative).

You might think "well I can combo, one Lancer Blights, the other charges".  This also doesn't work.  A Lancer can charge on 4, 5, or 7.  Meanwhile every single unit in the human army can charge on a 4.  Since spitting is on a 6, the odds of you getting outmaneuvered are really high and more importantly even if you do pull this move off, its a one shot.  Even with mortal wounds the odds of killing Kari in one round are not very good, so that leaves the potential to one shot a single golem (killing 2 in one round also very unlikely even with mortal wound).  

When you consider the above, the best you can hope for with solo Lancers when it comes to Blight/Mortal Wounding is that they will kill 1 Golem before the combo is shut down.

2x1 Lancer has good possibility to do 4 damage per round (2 hits is almost guaranteed since your rolling 3 dice and have a hit modifier, its more common to get 3 hits (roll 2 plus modifier) which gets you 6 damage the most common scenario for them.  6 damage is a tray of Calvary, its a tray of spearmen, its 2 Damage on Kari and 1 Damage on a Golem.  This makes them a part of the fighting force even without Mortal Wound which of course is still possible because you should always support your unit with Archers.

And I know what your going to say "you can support solo lancers with archers as well".  This is true and its a fair tactic, but it still really limits their ability to act on their own.  Archers aren't going to be available the whole fight for you, at some point your Lancer is going to be rolling normal u-blighted hits against enemies you might not have planned to attack at the start of the setup.  A 1x1 lancer without blight is pretty useless, but a 2x1 Lancer unit is a player, blight or not.

Thats my humble opinion.

 

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Well that's definitely a good case for the 2x1. I guess it comes down to use cases - as you say, against a higher-defense target like Kari or Golems the extra threat really shines, whereas for fighting Spearmen and Cavalry I maintain the singles are more efficient, especially as screens and tarpits.

The most reliable way to put blight on your target is to shoot it with Combat Ingenuity Archers (I realize this is a core set balance thread, but we've been playing with all revealed upgrades). Their ranged attack and the Lancers' melee attack both take place at initiative 5, so there is virtually nothing your target can do to clear the blight before the Lancer gets to make use of it.

A few other observations:

  • On the advance, you're likely to have an opportunity (maybe only once per game) to spit with the Lancers. Splitting the two into their own units means more blight tokens, eating up precious Inspiration tokens and Rally actions.
  • Single trays have slightly better flexibility to get flank charges since their base will never be fully on either side of the range ruler.
  • Two separate can block more board real estate if you're trying to, say, screen Archers.
  • Can be more survivable. If you imagine an enemy unit that reliably spits out 6 damage per attack, they'll kill a 2x1 in three attacks and two 1x1's in four. Wastes overkill, I mean.

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So whilst 1x1 CL might do quite well on a good blighting list (specially on the flanks where you expect to find cavalry and kari, not infantry), 2x1 are quite more versatile, though more expensive.

2x2 could be used as a true shock unit, with moment of inspiration (they can regroup+march 3!) you could use it 2 or 3 times pro game, and it's a lot of resilience: 36 damage to be destroyed, exactly the same as 3x3 reanimates!

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Spitting would be a lot better on second dial, to let you move first. The problem is that in turn 1 you rarely manage to find an enemy that has come close enough

Edited by druchii7

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29 minutes ago, druchii7 said:

So whilst 1x1 CL might do quite well on a good blighting list (specially on the flanks where you expect to find cavalry and kari, not infantry), 2x1 are quite more versatile, though more expensive.

2x2 could be used as a true shock unit, with moment of inspiration (they can regroup+march 3!) you could use it 2 or 3 times pro game, and it's a lot of resilience: 36 damage to be destroyed, exactly the same as 3x3 reanimates!

With Ardus in your army the 2x1 worms can bring Wind Rune. That 0-3 shift followed by a reform followed by March 3 makes the worms an awesome flanking unit. 


Upgrade%20-%20Wind%20Rune.png

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