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2 hours ago, TGO said:

If all of the anti-intentional draw people can get FFG to go back on that then I am sure all of the people who want to see this guy banned can get FFG to escalate the punishment. 

Customers are always right... ?

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6 hours ago, ThatJakeGuy said:

Dude, settle down. We're talking about a cheater here, there's no need to go Aggro on everyone else here. Dial down the personal attacks by at least 100%.

I am not personally attacking anyone nor attacking everyone.  I am just talking about the white knights.  Nice strawman though.

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21 hours ago, StevenO said:

That's no excuse.  Let's just say this was a bike race in France that you won but later were discovered to have cheated in the process; you get stripped of your victory and see your name drug through the mud.  Changing the ONE piece of secret information that you know and your opponent doesn't is probably the biggest violation of the spirit of this game with maybe loaded dice being close and with the realization that there is a mechanic to deal with that.  An ejection could be merited and what he "invested" to get there really shouldn't matter; besides the "investment" to play can vary tremendously with a local person just missing out on the day or whatever.

 

You are conflating this to the level of drug taking in the Tour de France? People have only ever been expelled from the Tour for the taking of prohibited substances. Other infractions are given time penalties. Please, keep some perspective here.

 

You even Feudian slip it as you use "drug" instead of "dragged".... :)   This is nowhere near a drug level offence!

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My opinion is that, if you're caught cheating at a tournament at any level, it should be an automatic win for the person that was cheated on and the perpetrator DQ'd and ejected from the premises. I know the person who came in 65th. She's a local here in the SF Bay Area and the local players here are, in a word, pissed at they way this has gone down. I watched the video clip. The way that this person thumbed his dial and the timing (waiting till his opponent's attention was occupied moving his ships) tells me this isn't the first time he's pulled a stunt like this. It looked too smooth and rehearsed to be the first time he's done this. All of which makes me wonder if he cheated in the games before and after he was caught on the feed. My guess is probably yes he did. 

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3 minutes ago, T70 Driver said:

My opinion is that, if you're caught cheating at a tournament at any level, it should be an automatic win for the person that was cheated on and the perpetrator DQ'd and ejected from the premises. I know the person who came in 65th. She's a local here in the SF Bay Area and the local players here are, in a word, pissed at they way this has gone down. I watched the video clip. The way that this person thumbed his dial and the timing (waiting till his opponent's attention was occupied moving his ships) tells me this isn't the first time he's pulled a stunt like this. It looked too smooth and rehearsed to be the first time he's done this. All of which makes me wonder if he cheated in the games before and after he was caught on the feed. My guess is probably yes he did. 

I even if the cheater got the loss or was ejected doesn't automatically mean 65th moves up to 64th

Edited by VanderLegion

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3 hours ago, FFGAaron said:

Hello everyone!

There has been a lot of discussion about this incident, and we thank you all for your passion and enthusiasm. 

Issues like this are never easy, nor are they as simple as they appear from afar. In this particular case, our judges and TO’s investigated the matter and came to a conclusion. After speaking with both players involved, they came to a determination and issued a penalty. I understand that many members of this community might disagree with their assessment, and that’s fine. This is all very subjective.

Situations like this take time to resolve. When something like this occurs, we are not able to rush to quick judgment. That’s a luxury the Internet has that we do not. We have an obligation to do our due diligence, collect all the facts, and then issue a verdict.

Unfortunately, the tournament does not stop moving forward while we’re investigating. Therefore, after the decision was made, the only choice was to issue a penalty to Player 1 on a future match. After the meal break, this was then communicated to Player 2 in the middle of his next pairing. Regretfully, this interrupted Player 2’s match in a negative way. The reality is, there are hundreds of players here playing dozens of matches, and in that chaos, our lines of communication were not efficient enough. As a result, Player 2's experience yesterday was not what we strive for.

We have been, and continue to be, in contact with both players. Please know that our first priority is to run a fair tournament, and we work very hard at that. Our second priority is that everyone has a positive experience at Worlds. We stand by our decision regarding Player 1. As for Player 2, we are working with him to make sure his experience at Worlds is not hampered by this.

However, as a matter of policy, those discussions between FFG and our players are private. We do not disclose our discussions with individual players to the community at large. Rest assured that we are taking steps to find the most equitable solution we can for the impact this had on Player 2's experience.

Thank you for your interest and discussion on this matter. From our end, we consider the issue closed and we look forward to seeing the X-Wing World Championships tonight.

Please remember that we have a zero tolerance policy for online harassment, doxxing, and bullying of any of our community members. 

Thank you again. Enjoy the final day of Worlds!

You had a meal break in between the round the incident took place and the next round? And that was not enough time to change the score for the game? I really don't understand this. Is your software not setup for such a problem?

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Just now, VanderLegion said:

I even if the cheater got the loss or was ejected doesn't automatically mean 65th moves up to 64th

True. We'll never know but she was only 17 MOV away from 64th so it would have been a good possibility that she would have made it.

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3 hours ago, BobbyM said:

Hi Stoneface

Pont 1: No, because board games should be a fun experience, and cheating should never, ever be tolerated.  I want to be concerned with my maneuvers, not worry if my opponent is cheating.

Point 2: This is the highest level event for X-Wing and one of the most publicized board game events, everyone needs to play by the rules.

Point 3: We don't care why.  He was caught on camera that he did.  So if I take your miniatures at the end of a game and claim I got "confused" but did not return them to you then it is OK?  The point here is that there was an action: a maneuver was changed on purpose for advantage but there was no reaction.

Point 4: Yes, there is something we can do about it.  I have already personally made one meme (not the upgrade card one, that was genius ) and I will continue to shame this Parker Guidary dude for ruining at least one person's tournament experience.  Understand, I am doing this not because I want to, but because FFG dropped the ball and said it was OK to cheat at world level gaming events. I say NO it is NOT!

Sixteen effing pages, the same sentiments posted by different individuals. What part of whipping the dead horse passed you by? 

Were you at worlds? Did Parker's cheating directly affect you? Who made you the Moral Marshal of tabletop gaming?

While I agree with the first three points you made, more or less, I heartily disagree with your actions regarding the fourth point. Unless you were privy to the judges' deliberations you don't know what went on nor do you know what additional sanctions may be forth coming. Being the faceless shamer of Parker on this site is nothing to be proud of. Unless you were his opponent in round three, save your moral indignation.

If discussions on these threads could be conducted like adults I'd have no problem with them but when the posts range from killing his dog, having him drawn and quartered to a permanent ban and your attempts along with others at public shaming it's time to end this. This thread has outlived its usefulness. Furthermore, if FFG does decide to add sanctions it will reinforce the idea, that if some people scream loud enough or post enough obnoxious comments it will force FFG to act.

Quick to think, slow to act would something to consider.

 

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7 hours ago, Rexler Brath said:

The above is justifying his illegal move as a brain disorder.  Do you have any sheds of evidence to backup your garbage?  Nope.  

I really do not understand the white knights here.  Its clear he cheated and its clear to almost everyone his intention.  You white knights make humanity look bad.  Being ablw to justify this act of cheating.  I have zero interest in ever playing a person who would defend this act.  Please do us all a favor and exit the x-wing community.  Law is probably a better hobby for you.

My father was a defense attorney, who frequently was court appointed. So I am going to take a rather large issue with this statement. 

So, yes, I do strongly believe in a patient approach, and not jumping to conclusions. Judges are still human, and I am hopeful that they do not give into the passions of the online community. A DQ probably should've happened, yes. But accepting the judges ruling is part of the playing the game. Even if they are wrong. They are still human. 

I am also not a fan of the first strike, and you are out forever that the lynch mob favors. 

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17 minutes ago, T70 Driver said:

True. We'll never know but she was only 17 MOV away from 64th so it would have been a good possibility that she would have made it.

Sure, but she was only like 67 mov ahead of mike. If his game was changed to a 100-0 win, his mov would have been way higher than hers. Even a 150 MoV win (replace the game with a bye) would have put him ahead of her as long as he lost the original game by more than 17 points (no clue what the actual score for the game was). 

Not to mention if he hadn't gotten hosed by the results of that game he might have played better in subsequent games and had more wins. 

Either way, odds are mike would have made the cut instead of the guy who cheated if they'd given mike the win when it happened

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15 hours ago, AceWing said:

Yeah, that issue is pretty cut and dry, too. There isn't much worse in a game than revealing hidden information. Immediate game loss. Simple. What's more important, a sloppy player or cheater's experience or the integrity of their game(s)?

Actually, I'd say it is a good bit worse than simply revealing hidden information as this is actually manipulating hidden information.

I'll say that not all infractions would merit the same level of punishment but to me making a deliberate manipulation of hidden information is probably the worst thing you can do except maybe cheat the randomization effects of the game.  What's on a ship's set but unrevealed dial is the only fixed but secret information in the game.  The only other secret information is the identity of any unrevealed damage card but that also runs into randomization; if you could have control over what face-up cards you "randomly" draw that is probably the same level of cheating as dial manipulation and it also indicates why Kylo is considered strong by some.

If I were going to list "capital" offenses in X-Wing my list would be:

  1.   Loaded dice and other related dice modification.
  2.   Dial Manipulation.
  3.   Damage Deck/Damage Card manipulation to any degree other than having the deck be a card off by a card do to loss or accidental gain although that's a Warning.

 

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3 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Not really any of your business.

If he is attending FFG events or at least planning to attend FFG events it is his business, because it sets precedents what to expect. A loss based on getting cheated is likely to drop you out of the tournament as making the cut becomes unlikely with that handicap. The normal reaction would be to award a win for that game afterwards, but I assume the tournament software did not support this, because else it would be a natural reaction to what happened. Having slightly off pairings has less impact on the tournament than having two completely wrong game results. 

If this is in the end really an issue with their tournament software than it calls for adjusting the software. 

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1 hour ago, Larky Bobble said:

You are conflating this to the level of drug taking in the Tour de France? People have only ever been expelled from the Tour for the taking of prohibited substances. Other infractions are given time penalties. Please, keep some perspective here.

 

You even Feudian slip it as you use "drug" instead of "dragged".... :)   This is nowhere near a drug level offence!

Well drugs they take are 99% of time higly legal!! It is just not allowed in sports because there is positive effect on recovery. 

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10 minutes ago, sozin said:

Argh, TOME :( I am guessing they didn't use https://github.com/Killerardvark/CryodexSource , for which it is trivial to alter a round result. 

Don't take my word for it. I am just guessing based on their actions. I might be guessing right or they did not realize that they could do this or they might still do it later. Or I am right and they really can't do it. Or it did not matter anyway as the guy did make the cut. I can't say for sure.

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1 hour ago, Stoneface said:

...Were you at worlds? Did Parker's cheating directly affect you?...

 

YES, this directly affects ME.  Understand, how FFG handles their biggest tournament sets a precedence on how all other tournaments are handled. 

1.  I have lost entire competitive tournaments for far, far, far less.  I explained the situation, the TO said, "NO."  I lost the whole thing WITHOUT arguing because I had indeed made a rules mistake.

2.  I had a person in one game fly their Falcon off their board and on to mine, we all laughed it up and decided that since he is new he won't lose his Falcon, he can have it back on his board but it gets a stress token.

3.  know people who have been ejected from tournaments for a list typo, and they haven't complained because those are the rules.

This person cheated, was caught, and still got to advance to the next day.  This affects me personally as a player and as an X-Wing events organizer.  This can potentially set a precedent that cheating and bending the rules is OK as long as you are a paying customer.   Dear FFG, I have lost competitive tournaments for significantly smaller honest infractions and I know people who have been booted from tournaments for less.  

By not enforcing their own rules, FFG has diminished previous tournaments and tournament organizers that have done their best to run fair events.  Yes, this does affect me personally.

Thank you FFG moderators for weighing in on the issue in this forum.  I know that the majority of your team is not at the tournament and there is little you can do, however, if you want to organize grand tournaments you need to have judges and be willing to enforce the rules.  What happened here is a mistake that has marred on overall great event.  

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BTW, I was not there and all. But people described the moment when the guy cheated as game changing.

So if he got his win only based on that cheat than he actually lost nothing, except maybe a little mov, but traded basically a try to cheat for a warning. So this is indeed an oddly soft … ruling, it is hard to call it a penalty when you basically lost nothing over your cheating. Rest assure, we have seen much more severe punishments for similar actions in the past, so I would not count on getting that easily off, it does sound indeed like there was a good explanation for changing the dials the way he did. We are not involved directly in the incident, so we should be careful when criticizing the judges call. It certainly seems questionable, but we can't rule out good explanations for the TO calls either. 

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I think at this point, FFG is just in damage control mode so are the streamers.  The cheat was identified on stream as soon as it happened by some savey twitch watchers.  There was more than enough time to address the situation.  

Failures

  • Failure #1 - The casters failed.  They told the audience that they didn't think it was cheating and that we all should just STFU.
  • Failure #2 - The first TO ruled it not cheating and gave the cheater a warning
    • Internet was outraged
  • Failure #3 - 2nd ruling was a game loss for cheater next round due to internet outrage.
  • Failure #4 - FFG just wrote today that we should all just shutup and accept their crappy ruling.
    • Message: its OK to cheat at official FFG events.

 

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3 hours ago, Zazaa said:

Customers are always right... ?

With all respect, while I can see what people say. The customer is NOT always right. They THINK they are always right. Very big distinction there.

Maybe FFG did drop the ball, maybe they made the best decision they could with the evidence laid out before them. If the cheater declared it was not intentional and completely accidental..they can't prove otherwise. Yes the video, but the video only shows his thumb moving across the dial, that part is fact. However, we don't know if he was looking at the dial since we cannot see his head. Maybe he is saying "I moved on to my ship, but my opponent reminded me that it was his ship and he started to do it. I don't remember moving the dial, but it's possible that I might have accidentally moved it."

Slippery slope I know, the problem is FFG are screwed either way:

If it WAS an accident (merely playing devil's advocate) and it is eventually discovered to be an accident and he was ejected from worlds for that accident. I can see the community reacting just as harshly against FFG.

Likewise, if it wasn't an accident, and don't make a harsh ruling (I'd hardly call a game loss a slap on the wrist...a warning is a slap on the wrist) then the community would also react badly as we have seen.

However, FFG can only go on the evidence they are presented and what people say, and people will lie to cover their own ***. Therefore they probably were unable to confirm that deliberately planned cheating had occurred and had to err on the side of caution. If you cannot without a shadow of a doubt prove that cheating did occur, then you have a problem because it could be some other reasoning. There's a reason we don't convict people for 'could haves' and 'maybes'.

What upsets me more...is the armchair judging and righteous indignation our community has displayed at this. An arrogant proclaim that "WE have all the information, and WE make the call, he is guilty! GUILTY! GUILTY! Anyone who says otherwise is WRONG!"

We don't know how FFG's investigation goes, the process may not even be over. They had to make a call, they can't just pause the event for hours on end while they investigate the matter. They make a call and investigate it when they can and possibly come up with proper sanctions against the supposed cheating player.

 

I find it ludicrous how people stated that a round and lunch break is plenty of time. How do you know it's plenty of time? Are you part of the committee or group that made the actual call and investigated the matter? No? the shut up and let the judges do their job and stop harassing them and saying that their calls are messed up and wrong.

If you can't take a judge's ruling, what are you doing here? The point of a judge is to do just that; judge. Yet apparently when that make the immediate call to keep things moving, they are instantly declared as wrong without people knowing the exact facts of the situation.

Now, I'm not saying what the cheater did was right. Clearly, he was in the wrong in some way, even if he didn't cheat and claimed it as an accident he was still in the wrong for holding his dial. He should have immediately returned the dial to the table face-down. Likewise...he has been vilified by this community and has to live with the knowledge that he will most likely ridicule for the rest of his days playing X-Wing. That does not mean it is okay doxx or anything that would effect a players personal life like that.

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1 minute ago, Ebak said:

Likewise, if it wasn't an accident, and don't make a harsh ruling (I'd hardly call a game loss a slap on the wrist...a warning is a slap on the wrist) then the community would also react badly as we have seen.

However, FFG can only go on the evidence they are presented and what people say, and people will lie to cover their own ***. Therefore they probably were unable to confirm that deliberately planned cheating had occurred and had to err on the side of caution. If you cannot without a shadow of a doubt prove that cheating did occur, then you have a problem because it could be some other reasoning. There's a reason we don't convict people for 'could haves' and 'maybes'.

Maybes are irrelevant. A rules breach was in place, it is a prime event. Worlds for Pete's sake. The moment was described by many as game changing (others may correct me here, I was not there after all). This should have been ruled as instantaneous loss, even if it was an accident.  Prime events are different than game night kit tourneys. There would have been no fuss in that case as well. If further action is required, not that might be indeed based on that fine line of guessing intentions and here a simple warning might have been fine. 

But deliberate or not is actually rather irrelevant for the very game in question. And it actually changed the results as well. One guy made it based on that rules violation and the other guys seems to not have made it based on that loss.

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16 minutes ago, Rexler Brath said:
  • Failure #1 - The casters failed.  They told the audience that they didn't think it was cheating and that we all should just STFU.
  • Failure #2 - The first TO ruled it not cheating and gave the cheater a warning
    • Internet was outraged
  • Failure #3 - 2nd ruling was a game loss for cheater next round due to internet outrage.
  • Failure #4 - FFG just wrote today that we should all just shutup and accept their crappy ruling.
    • Message: its OK to cheat at official FFG events.
 
 

Failure #1 - I don't know how I feel about this. While the community should probably keep its collective nose out of an official investigation...the streamers actually saying that is rude (but I don't know what they said exactly, so I cannot make that call and I am only going on the information displayed here.) 

'Failure' #2 - An immediate ruling to keep the game moving most likely was the reason for this while an official investigation would come later. Without the facts, we can't make a decision on this and call it a failure

'Failure' #3 - Internet outrage is the order of the day, and people can act very harshly without thinking things through. What if the cheater claims it was accidental and they can't definitely prove that deliberate (malicious) cheating did indeed occur? In that situation, FFG enter a 'damned if we do, damned if we don't' scenario where if they eject a guy from worlds and it is eventually (somehow) discovered to have been a total accident, what then? Internet outrage! "How could they throw someone out of worlds for a simple accident or mistake?!" If it was deliberate and they stick with their original warning? Internet outrage! "Oh, FFG don't care about cheating at all they only gave a warning." Solution: Middle ground, keep the warning, next game round loss (since changing a previous game would ripple effect the current standings and its too far along to correct that.

'Failure' #4 - That is ridiculous! They can't just furnish us with full details about an investigation and matter. The truth is, yeah. The community should shut its collective mouth because it might not have all the facts, is not part of the investigation, and frankly doesn't NEED to be privy to the full details, just the end result. Nowhere did FFG say it was okay to cheat, in fact I think it's the opposite since if it was okay to cheat at an official FFG event, he would have gotten way with nothing. No loss, no warning, no nothing.

How about we all take a step back, chill and wait to see how this all unfolds before we make rash emotional decisions instead of thought out logical ones?

Edited by Ebak

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9 minutes ago, Ebak said:

With all respect, while I can see what people say. The customer is NOT always right. They THINK they are always right. Very big distinction there.

Maybe FFG did drop the ball, maybe they made the best decision they could with the evidence laid out before them. If the cheater declared it was not intentional and completely accidental..they can't prove otherwise. Yes the video, but the video only shows his thumb moving across the dial, that part is fact. However, we don't know if he was looking at the dial since we cannot see his head. Maybe he is saying "I moved on to my ship, but my opponent reminded me that it was his ship and he started to do it. I don't remember moving the dial, but it's possible that I might have accidentally moved it."

Slippery slope I know, the problem is FFG are screwed either way:

If it WAS an accident (merely playing devil's advocate) and it is eventually discovered to be an accident and he was ejected from worlds for that accident. I can see the community reacting just as harshly against FFG.

Likewise, if it wasn't an accident, and don't make a harsh ruling (I'd hardly call a game loss a slap on the wrist...a warning is a slap on the wrist) then the community would also react badly as we have seen.

However, FFG can only go on the evidence they are presented and what people say, and people will lie to cover their own ***. Therefore they probably were unable to confirm that deliberately planned cheating had occurred and had to err on the side of caution. If you cannot without a shadow of a doubt prove that cheating did occur, then you have a problem because it could be some other reasoning. There's a reason we don't convict people for 'could haves' and 'maybes'.

What upsets me more...is the armchair judging and righteous indignation our community has displayed at this. An arrogant proclaim that "WE have all the information, and WE make the call, he is guilty! GUILTY! GUILTY! Anyone who says otherwise is WRONG!"

We don't know how FFG's investigation goes, the process may not even be over. They had to make a call, they can't just pause the event for hours on end while they investigate the matter. They make a call and investigate it when they can and possibly come up with proper sanctions against the supposed cheating player.

 

I find it ludicrous how people stated that a round and lunch break is plenty of time. How do you know it's plenty of time? Are you part of the committee or group that made the actual call and investigated the matter? No? the shut up and let the judges do their job and stop harassing them and saying that their calls are messed up and wrong.

If you can't take a judge's ruling, what are you doing here? The point of a judge is to do just that; judge. Yet apparently when that make the immediate call to keep things moving, they are instantly declared as wrong without people knowing the exact facts of the situation.

Now, I'm not saying what the cheater did was right. Clearly, he was in the wrong in some way, even if he didn't cheat and claimed it as an accident he was still in the wrong for holding his dial. He should have immediately returned the dial to the table face-down. Likewise...he has been vilified by this community and has to live with the knowledge that he will most likely ridicule for the rest of his days playing X-Wing. That does not mean it is okay doxx or anything that would effect a players personal life like that.

Well clearly you didn't see it was joke..

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