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Live cheating at worlds?

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4 hours ago, Rexler Brath said:

And people who make those choices should be disqualified.  Its that simple.

It's not that simple though, its entirely plausible that the player 'cheated' without being fully cognisant of what he was doing at that specific point in time.

If you watch the video carefully you can see he picks up the dial, and looks at it - he makes no attempt to alter the dial at that point. Essentially he is reverting to the 'planning phase', out of sync with the actual game state.

At this point he realises he has made a mistake, possibly at a sub conscious level and his brain wouldn't be able to accept that error (its a common enough reaction).  Parker is therefore thinking "there is no way I would have selected that move!". He then justifies to himself moving the dial (recalling that he still 'thinks' he is in the planning phase from his subconscious perspective).

What's interesting here, is that Parker isn't cheating to "win" per se, he's in an internal monologue attempting to rectify an error in his world view of what 'should' be happening. In essence at the subconscious level his brain (probably having rehearsed the same move many times before) denies what it actually happening and attempts to restore the situation to what should be 'correctly' happening.

If you were to interrupt Parker at that precise moment , pointing out he was cheating, he'd be flummoxed by the suggestion because he doesn't 'see' the big picture of the game &, the competition -just that specific moment in time.

Yes it is cheating: but we shouldn't necessarily lambast Parker in the assumption that he was doing so in order to 'win' and that his moral compass is off. If the above holds true (or could be true) then Parkers dial modification may not have been done through pre determined malicious intent (i.e before the game: "I'm going to alter my dials to win").

Of course you might doubt this view, but its worth noting that our brains belief systems are stupendously strong, and cause us to make catastrophic errors in judgement (normally when under pressure).  Pilots for example have literally flown aircraft into the sides of mountains because of it. It's one of the reasons we make simple mistakes in game play, it just so happens that in this instance Parker, probably under significant stress and pressure (Worlds, LiveStream etc) followed that decision tree to a critical failure point.  I wouldn't be entirely surprised if he can barely recollect doing so.

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7 minutes ago, Cailais said:

It's not that simple though, its entirely plausible that the player 'cheated' without being fully cognisant of what he was doing at that specific point in time.

If you watch the video carefully you can see he picks up the dial, and looks at it - he makes no attempt to alter the dial at that point. Essentially he is reverting to the 'planning phase', out of sync with the actual game state.

At this point he realises he has made a mistake, possibly at a sub conscious level and his brain wouldn't be able to accept that error (its a common enough reaction).  Parker is therefore thinking "there is no way I would have selected that move!". He then justifies to himself moving the dial (recalling that he still 'thinks' he is in the planning phase from his subconscious perspective).

What's interesting here, is that Parker isn't cheating to "win" per se, he's in an internal monologue attempting to rectify an error in his world view of what 'should' be happening. In essence at the subconscious level his brain (probably having rehearsed the same move many times before) denies what it actually happening and attempts to restore the situation to what should be 'correctly' happening.

If you were to interrupt Parker at that precise moment , pointing out he was cheating, he'd be flummoxed by the suggestion because he doesn't 'see' the big picture of the game &, the competition -just that specific moment in time.

Yes it is cheating: but we shouldn't necessarily lambast Parker in the assumption that he was doing so in order to 'win' and that his moral compass is off. If the above holds true (or could be true) then Parkers dial modification may not have been done through pre determined malicious intent (i.e before the game: "I'm going to alter my dials to win").

Of course you might doubt this view, but its worth noting that our brains belief systems are stupendously strong, and cause us to make catastrophic errors in judgement (normally when under pressure).  Pilots for example have literally flown aircraft into the sides of mountains because of it. It's one of the reasons we make simple mistakes in game play, it just so happens that in this instance Parker, probably under significant stress and pressure (Worlds, LiveStream etc) followed that decision tree to a critical failure point.  I wouldn't be entirely surprised if he can barely recollect doing so.

No.  The player in question cheated to gain advantage in the game. All the mental gymnastics in the world don't change the fact that he cheated for advantage.  His opponent was wronged and stands uncompensated for that wrong.  That is not an acceptable outcome and is detrimental to the integrity of the game.  

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8 minutes ago, Cailais said:

It's not that simple though, its entirely plausible that the player 'cheated' without being fully cognisant of what he was doing at that specific point in time.

If you watch the video carefully you can see he picks up the dial, and looks at it - he makes no attempt to alter the dial at that point. Essentially he is reverting to the 'planning phase', out of sync with the actual game state.

At this point he realises he has made a mistake, possibly at a sub conscious level and his brain wouldn't be able to accept that error (its a common enough reaction).  Parker is therefore thinking "there is no way I would have selected that move!". He then justifies to himself moving the dial (recalling that he still 'thinks' he is in the planning phase from his subconscious perspective).

What's interesting here, is that Parker isn't cheating to "win" per se, he's in an internal monologue attempting to rectify an error in his world view of what 'should' be happening. In essence at the subconscious level his brain (probably having rehearsed the same move many times before) denies what it actually happening and attempts to restore the situation to what should be 'correctly' happening.

If you were to interrupt Parker at that precise moment , pointing out he was cheating, he'd be flummoxed by the suggestion because he doesn't 'see' the big picture of the game &, the competition -just that specific moment in time.

Yes it is cheating: but we shouldn't necessarily lambast Parker in the assumption that he was doing so in order to 'win' and that his moral compass is off. If the above holds true (or could be true) then Parkers dial modification may not have been done through pre determined malicious intent (i.e before the game: "I'm going to alter my dials to win").

Of course you might doubt this view, but its worth noting that our brains belief systems are stupendously strong, and cause us to make catastrophic errors in judgement (normally when under pressure).  Pilots for example have literally flown aircraft into the sides of mountains because of it. It's one of the reasons we make simple mistakes in game play, it just so happens that in this instance Parker, probably under significant stress and pressure (Worlds, LiveStream etc) followed that decision tree to a critical failure point.  I wouldn't be entirely surprised if he can barely recollect doing so.


I call BS.

His correction takes him from a situation where he would have had 3 stressed ships without tokens and changes it to 3 unstressed ships all with focus.
It changed the entire game and he should not only have gotten a gameloss, he should have been outright DQ´ed at the spot.

Lifting the dial and looking at it without telling his opponent that he is checking it is clearly a rule violation. Then he makes it into downright malicious cheating when he thumbs it to a non red and non bumping manourver.
It cant be defended and neither can the weak slap on the wrist the Judges gave him

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20 minutes ago, Cailais said:

It's not that simple though, its entirely plausible that the player 'cheated' without being fully cognisant of what he was doing at that specific point in time.

If you watch the video carefully you can see he picks up the dial, and looks at it - he makes no attempt to alter the dial at that point. Essentially he is reverting to the 'planning phase', out of sync with the actual game state.

At this point he realises he has made a mistake, possibly at a sub conscious level and his brain wouldn't be able to accept that error (its a common enough reaction).  Parker is therefore thinking "there is no way I would have selected that move!". He then justifies to himself moving the dial (recalling that he still 'thinks' he is in the planning phase from his subconscious perspective).

What's interesting here, is that Parker isn't cheating to "win" per se, he's in an internal monologue attempting to rectify an error in his world view of what 'should' be happening. In essence at the subconscious level his brain (probably having rehearsed the same move many times before) denies what it actually happening and attempts to restore the situation to what should be 'correctly' happening.

If you were to interrupt Parker at that precise moment , pointing out he was cheating, he'd be flummoxed by the suggestion because he doesn't 'see' the big picture of the game &, the competition -just that specific moment in time.

Yes it is cheating: but we shouldn't necessarily lambast Parker in the assumption that he was doing so in order to 'win' and that his moral compass is off. If the above holds true (or could be true) then Parkers dial modification may not have been done through pre determined malicious intent (i.e before the game: "I'm going to alter my dials to win").

Of course you might doubt this view, but its worth noting that our brains belief systems are stupendously strong, and cause us to make catastrophic errors in judgement (normally when under pressure).  Pilots for example have literally flown aircraft into the sides of mountains because of it. It's one of the reasons we make simple mistakes in game play, it just so happens that in this instance Parker, probably under significant stress and pressure (Worlds, LiveStream etc) followed that decision tree to a critical failure point.  I wouldn't be entirely surprised if he can barely recollect doing so.

 

This is the exact mindset of so many of FF's customer's that it is no wonder that FFG doesn't have a legitimate OP department. They figure all of their customer's are naive enough to beleive that you dont need strong set of tournament rules. 

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22 minutes ago, Cailais said:

What's interesting here, is that Parker isn't cheating to "win" per se, he's in an internal monologue attempting to rectify an error in his world view of what 'should' be happening. In essence at the subconscious level his brain (probably having rehearsed the same move many times before) denies what it actually happening and attempts to restore the situation to what should be 'correctly' happening.

A sociopath then?

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4 minutes ago, Holmelund said:


Lifting the dial and looking at it without telling his opponent that he is checking it is clearly a rule violation. Then he makes it into downright malicious cheating when he thumbs it to a non red and non bumping manourver.
It cant be defended and neither can the weak slap on the wrist the Judges gave him

Can you prove, 100%, that Parker was making a fully conscious informed decision to cheat?

Noting that, as a result of the psychological bias I have described above (which has been shown to be instrumental in catastrophic pilot error) is not a factor here?

I would stress I'm not condoning, or defending Parkers actions: I'm just pointing out that he may not have been making a conscious malicious decision - just as pilots don't consciously choose to crash their aircraft.

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6 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

A sociopath then?

It's plausible, but that would probably be more noticeable as a prolonged state of character. 

Its more likely he was just not cognisant of the state of the game - almost like he was operating on autopilot.

There are cases in industrial accidents where people have guilotined fingers off one hand and then proceeded to do the other hand: in order to make them 'level'. Totally inexplicable behaviour but it does happen.

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I skipped my local regional after that intentional draw fiasco. And I've played maybe a half dozen games of xwing in the years since - for months losing the desire to play, until they finally fixed the rule and in that span finding other things to do with my time.

This cheating incident and how it was dealt with at world's has me no longer wishing I was there or hoping to be at the next one.

Their resolution of the incident is entirely unacceptable. Until they directly and publicly fix their tournament rules and judging, I'm probably done with official tournament play; and as almost everything about the game is 100/6 geared toward the next tournament, I don't see myself buying future ships except maybe as a collector for the shelf. Hoping that will change, but it's FFG'S move and I'm weary of sleight of hand now.

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I am not sure why this guy isn't disqualified.  Whether he was going to win hands down or not is irrelevant, changing the dial after the planning phase is an illegal move. 

You cannot use psychobabble to say "it's ok because he did it subconsciously" because that doesn't wash (expand this to shootings etc - doesn't wash there either). Cheating is cheating, he made a mistake in planning, thats part of the game.  

I have made loads of bumbles in games, won some lost some - thats part of it. It's great when a good opponent makes a mistake you both know there has been a bumble, and you hope to capitalise.  A really good player (probably wouldn't have bumbled) should be able to come back from one mistake though

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30 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

You are assuming he only cheated the one time he got caught on camera. His slieght of hand seemed pretty practiced. How many times has this cheater cheated?

 

A number between 1 and infinity, but we've no evidence it's anything other than 1, and I'm not prepared to make the leap to assume he can't win a game of x-wing fairly.

Something something presumed innocence.

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24 minutes ago, TGO said:

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com

 

Does anyone know why the last two guys received bans/suspensions?

I'm only aware of the first known banned player, and as I recall he was caught (on livestream, again) secretly drawing and discarding more cards than he was allowed to in Warhammer Conquest.  Another situation where you could potentially give him the benefit of the doubt - if he'd not been shown on camera doing it whenever he thought he could make it look like an "accident."

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1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:

A number between 1 and infinity, but we've no evidence it's anything other than 1, and I'm not prepared to make the leap to assume he can't win a game of x-wing fairly.

Something something presumed innocence.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is a fine sentiment.

He was caught on camera changing his dial to save his entire game.  Guilty.

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This is incredibly disappointing to see from ffg, completely sends out the wrong example. I think a permanent ban is bit harsh but he should be kicked out competition and the win awarded to the right player, not gifted to someone else.

Its clear to see, he checks his dial and realise hes about to bump so rolls his thumb to change the manoeuvre then checks again to make sure its right.

If you going to start saying he's innocent and shouldn't be punished because he subconsciously did it, then that would give everyone a chance to cheat and say oops was day dreaming.

Edited by Ace Ewok Pilot

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5 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

"Innocent until proven guilty" is a fine sentiment.

He was caught on camera changing his dial to save his entire game.  Guilty.

Agreed, guilty.... Once. We can't say that he was found guilty of any other game cheating. His punishment should fit cheating once.

Innocent until proven guilty matters.

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7 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

Agreed, guilty.... Once. We can't say that he was found guilty of any other game cheating. His punishment should fit cheating once.

Innocent until proven guilty matters.

He cheated a player out of potentially thousands of dollars in registration, travel and lodging paid for a chance to win at World's.  Instant ejection and disqualification from progressing further is exactly what the innocent player is now subject to as a result of his actions.

I don't play X-Wing competitively, but this makes me severely question the wisdom of going to NoVa later this year.

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6 minutes ago, Rexler Brath said:

The above is justifying his illegal move as a brain disorder.  Do you have any sheds of evidence to backup your garbage?  Nope.  

I really do not understand the white knights here.  Its clear he cheated and its clear to almost everyone his intention.  You white knights make humanity look bad.  Being ablw to justify this act of cheating.  I have zero interest in ever playing a person who would defend this act.  Please do us all a favor and exit the x-wing community.  Law is probably a better hobby for you.

Dude, settle down. We're talking about a cheater here, there's no need to go Aggro on everyone else here. Dial down the personal attacks by at least 100%.

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2 minutes ago, Rexler Brath said:

The above is justifying his illegal move as a brain disorder.  Do you have any sheds of evidence to backup your garbage?  Nope.  

I really do not understand the white knights here.  Its clear he cheated and its clear to almost everyone his intention.  You white knights make humanity look bad.  Being ablw to justify this act of cheating.  I have zero interest in ever playing a person who would defend this act.  Please do us all a favor and exit the x-wing community.  Law is probably a better hobby for you.

This is not about white-knighting, but rather diverting internet witch-hunting and keeping up a basic principle of society. The above was not talking about how this might not be cheating. Nobody that has seen the full set of evidence doubts that. He was rather talking about how calling the cheating player human garbage is uncalled for because malicious intent can't be proven based on the footage - this can happen when you zone out, it has happened to me as I described earlier. This should not have an impact on the penalty, but on the treatment of the player as person.

Is the penalty apropriate? Personaly I'd go for at least a DQ, but this is a lot more acceptable than just a warning. Really, this whole discussion should focus on the other side of the incident, the person being screwed over. FFG ought to compensate him for admission and travel after this terrible call. They also should do something connected to the game like give him a set of higher up prices or (my personal favourite) make a custom set of templates that says "We are sorry". Because ****, this side of the issue really makes me angry.

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19 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

He cheated a player out of potentially thousands of dollars in registration, travel and lodging paid for a chance to win at World's.  Instant ejection and disqualification from progressing further is exactly what the innocent player is now subject to as a result of his actions.

I don't play X-Wing competitively, but this makes me severely question the wisdom of going to NoVa later this year.

Oh, I agree he wasn't punished enough.

What I am getting at is you cannot enter any other claims of him cheating as reason to punish him beyond his single infraction. Disqualified, fine. Perma-banned? No. 

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