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2017 Worlds Top 16 list

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Lists not yet, but the stream is up.

Looks like 15/16 are merc lists with Jabba/Weequays, all running cookie cutter lists, this is very unfortunate for the game.

Someone in the chat posted that only 12 or so minis out of a possible 60? are being used. I think those numbers are slightly off, but not to far. That is only 20%. :(

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To be fair, this game has had some pretty drastic evolutions in Skirmish since it came out.

The big Sabs/Officer/Royal Guard erratas combined with Hoth opened up some interesting doors.

But then Bespin came out and Blaise Troopers became a great list that played a good points denial game which was the popular choice last Worlds in November.

I think with the new scoring, Skirmish has the framework to really be a fun, interactive, competitive game.

With regards to Jabba/eWeequays, it's basically the foundation for a consistent list, but allows the player to season to taste.  You could toss in a Rancor, a Bantha, some of the new campaign heroes like Onar and Shyla.

Vinto gets used a lot because he's pretty effective but he also just has that "cool" factor going for him.

Mostly though, it's because Hunters and Smugglers got some really great tech in command cards and the Black Market upgrade.

The new mini wave is dropping some good Droid list framework tools, and Heart of the Empire looks to provide some solid new uniques for all 3 factions, as well as what looks like more Imperial Droids and another Massive vehicle, and a Vader fix.

So now all those hunter lists are still good, but Droids will arrive in comparable force along with bringing back another Core Set unique from the dead.

I fee like Jabba's Realm and the new scoring was the soft reboot the Skirmish game needed and all the material that's coming out is properly "expanding" your options rather than overwriting a meta with a new top tier build each release.

Weequays were touted as the death of HK's and maybe that's true right in this moment but when the Droids mini wave goes legal, expect interesting things to happen with that trait.

Now let's all go enjoy the embarrassment of riches this game has in store for the rest of the year.

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Not all the lists had Jabba.  Just sayin'.

In my opinion, there are at least a couple viable imp/rebel lists, but they're all slightly less consistent than the pirates and a bit harder to play, so you're just less likely to see them at events.

Even with the pirates, there are still several options.  It was actually rare to see more than 2 people with the exact same list.

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Right now, with their card draw, access to focus and hide- with rerolls, and amazing command cards--- it's Weequays w/ some form of focus (with or without Jabba- personally I feel it is stronger with Jabba)--- and then everything else. You're talking about having 4 units that can shoot a minimum of 7 range-  that's going to do 5 damage at least 85% of the time (with reroll- against black or white die). Which will kill a number of figures. And that doesn't include command cards. 

Imperial lacks the access to card draw and focus. Jet troopers are pretty good. And if you remove focus, you could argue that Jet Troopers are at least as good- if not better- than Weequays. Their card selection isn't close. 

Rebels have focus, but their in turn card draw is limited to R2, which is okay- except he is terminal locked. RHC is generally better. Regular Rangers would be good, except for the fact that Weequays one shot them- pretty much guaranteed. 

Right now, Weequays have all the advantages- plus having the traits with most of the best cards.

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FFG needs to reverse their ruling on Reinforcements and probably ban Temporary Alliance. Breaking up scoring was probably for the best, but losing Reinforcements as a viable card crushed the backbone of Imperial lists too much to recover. I think a reversal of the Reinforcements ruling would put Elite stormtroopers back on par with the elite rangers and weequays.

Hopefully Beetee, Palpatine and Vader are good enough to get Imps back into play.

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No matter what we say about it, 20% of the total potential minis used is just flat out sad. As I said in the other thread, there were a number of X-Wing, Armada, LCG and Destiny players in the stream asking about the game in chat that seemed genuinely interested in trying it. But as soon as they found out that 15/16 lists were Merc they laughed and left.. unfortunately this season of Worlds put us back a step in terms of diversity and might have even hindered the growth of the game. That is the exact opposite effect we want from this kind of exposure.

Claiming that 1 or 2 different figures in a list is any substantial level of diversity or difference really underlines and bolds this point. :/ But a new hope is on its way it appears in the form of the next few waves.

Edited by FrogTrigger

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In terms of outsider visibility, this is worse than having 4x4 and Sabs. 

While I think the environment is healthier now than it was then, for someone looking to get into the game, especially competitively, this is a huge negative. 

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I am running

 

2x e jets

Terro

Dewback

GIQ

Officer

 

And i have no problem dealing with the 2x pirate going on at the moment.

So i do not agree that scum is strongest at the moment, the same with luke 2 and obi lists with rangers are also exceptionally strong at the moment

 

Edited by kongsgaard

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All these tournaments are such a small slice of the actual community, or scene. I believe this is forced by the way the tournament is located, timed and organized. I doubt you even have the best players in the world. These tournaments are designed to collect players with disposable income who are passionate about the game.  The lack of variety is due to the prevelance of the Internet in our society and lack of large-based communities locally. (Someone show me a 12-15 person community that meets regularly like 2x a month. I've only heard of small pockets 6 or less)

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5 hours ago, FrogTrigger said:

No matter what we say about it, 20% of the total potential minis used is just flat out sad. 

I really think they need to ban Temporary Alliance. It's bad for diversity, and bad for limiting design space.

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Let me weigh in on this with another patented long-winded response.

First, before we talk about list diversity, let's talk about some more tangible barriers of entry to this game that will stop new players from coming in long before you even talk to them about the meta, unplayable units, overpowered units, etc.

I'm referring to the actual dollars and cents cost to buy in.  It's a Core Set, The Bespin Gambit, and Jabba's Realm at least, just to have the basic components of tokens, doors, dice, and the requisite map tiles for the current rotation.

If you don't live in the USA and thus don't have ready access to some deep discounting, the cost of this "Starter Set" i mentioned above is probably affordable, even if you set aside some cash for a few months, to most players, but it's definitely a larger investment than an X-Wing Core Set and a key ship or two.

Consider then, what the "IA Starter Set" leaves you with in terms of figures and options.  You only have 1 of each elite, so for some popular non-unique units like Elite Weequays or Elite Stormtroopers, you're going to need to either borrow that extra deployment card, double up on a box set, trade or go to the secondary market to purchase it.

Consider also, that all those lovely unique figures that aren't Rebel campaign heroes are also going to need to be bought, so unless you want a list that features Gideon, Vinto, Shyla, and Onar, you're going to need to do some shopping;

C-3P0, Jabba the Hutt, Bossk, Agent Blaise, IG-88 (and a Jawa Scavenger to get the "fix" card), Luke Skywalker Jedi Knight, Leia Organa, Captain Terro, Greedo, Obi-Wan Kenobi, The Grand Inquisitor, the Bantha Rider (which I realize is a non-unique but it's in its own pack and definitely a worthy addition to your collection), and Kevin Bacon.

I might be missing another very useful unique or two that you can build lists around or with, but you get the idea.

So you spent the money to get those three boxes, and now you're setting down to list build.  You don't want to spend $500 collecting all the things for a game you don't even know you like, so I guess you start out with Gideon, Temporary Alliance, Vinto, Onar, Shyla, Elite Weequays and that's already a good start and looks suspiciously like this alleged scourge of Weequay "sameness" that's going around...

Anyways, once you have spent what you're going to spend, you've made your list, you've gathered your components and it's off to the big tournament! Now you realize you have to burn game time setting up these blasted map tiles under the gun.  Thankfully there is a solution; you can casually get pre-made maps from image files a kind community member has produced, or you can spring for the official FFG maps.

Regarding the maps, I really love the FFG mats a lot for being able to roll out and lay flat.  The quality is great and I would prefer playing on these over a poster board or on the original tiles any day.  BUT, there are some drawbacks that are practical as well, and also a big negative for prospective newcomers; they're $25 US each, and they rotate.

So right away you need to buy the current 3 maps, knowing that one will cycle out in about 4 months time to be replaced with a new map.  If you've decided that this isn't an issue for you, then get ready for another one because (and this feeds into a bigger problem with Imperial Assault) FFG doesn't sell Imperial Assault product directly from their website.  You'd have to get them from FFG's Event Center(sic) or through your local distributor by way of your FLGS (from experience, this is a huge pain in Canada and a side effect of attending Worlds for IA the last two years was getting these maps), or scour the Internet looking for them when the new map is released.  It takes a while for all the online retailers to get their stock, due to the Print on Demand process and the fact that stocking the mats itself is not appealing for the store because their demand will drop off eventually when the map rotates out and becomes dead inventory.

So yeah, I think there are many more barriers of entry into Imperial Assault that have little to do with the Weequay scourge.

In fact, I would argue that the Weequay scourge is just the first wave in a series of waves that will broaden this game out even more, and I couldn't be more excited.  Let me explain that one too;

The Bespin wave really started the template for right-sizing the distribution of materials, mainly deployment cards that was lacking previously.  Remember, this is also a campaign dungeon crawl and these boxes will wear both hats indefinitely.  There will be no "upgrade" packs for skirmish.  Your stockist already has to merchandise about 40 SKU's for this game and doesn't want to clutter up their shelves any more than needed.

So beyond distribution of deployment cards, we see with Bespin the beginnings of releasing units that are all for the most part playable in Skirmish, which is the paradigm I'm looking at this whole discussion through, leaving campaign aside.  They also dropped in some great Spy cards that make that trait a blast to play with.

The scoring for tournaments changed so you get individual figures now and lame points denial NPE play disappeared.  We can interact again!

Jabba's Realm comes out and releases even more goodness into the game along with command cards for Hunters and Smugglers that also allow those traits to properly "arrive" in IA.

What this did was temporarily push the Weequays up to the top of popularity because Hunter and Smuggler cards work on them, as well as combos like Strength in Numbers to really get a lot of mileage from those guys.  The sky isn't falling though because this is a short blip on the journey.  I would agree that it incentivized players to run Weeqs and to a lesser extent, Alliance Rangers, but it's not hard to see why when building a command deck is a struggle for some players.

Right now you just make that Vinto/Shyla/Onar/Gideon/Elite Weequay core I mentioned above, plug in those new Hunter/Smuggler cards into your command deck, fill out the rest of your list/deck and you'll probably do alright.

What would have helped Worlds diversity A LOT would have been getting this mini wave out in time instead of just after, but if you forget about Worlds as the be-all-end-all of play for a minute, you'll realize all is well.

So the new mini wave comes out and the Droid trait is fleshed out, and IG-88 has been resurrected to join the game as a series unit.

I also forgot to mention that FFG quietly made "Force User" a useful trait along the way with the Inquisitor/Obi-Wan/Jedi Luke packs.

Now with Heart of the Empire, and this is just my speculation based on what I saw previewed, Force Users will be a viable template for all 3 factions, as Vader gets fixed, and can roll with Palpatine and the Inquisitor for Imperials, Mercenaries get "Old Maul", and Rebels add Ahsoka Tano to their ranks.  I'll assume at least one or two command cards for generic Force User use (possibly faction locked) will be added beyond the obvious unique cards for Ahsoka/Palpatine/Maul.

The Sentry Droids for the Imperials will surely get some use out of their Droid trait.  More Trooper-trait units that I'll curse FFG for making me paint, and another scummy mercenary unit to jump on those existing command cards.

I also saw a new Brawler card, and maybe more will be in there to bring that trait up to speed with the rest of the top picks.

But what of that low-rent AT-ST that's in the box? Could be get something in there that makes massive vehicles a thing?  That might be too hopeful, but we'll see what we get when the box gets here.

To wrap up, you can now make great lists built around Spy/Hunter/Smuggler/Force User/Droid/Creature traits.  It's not everything, but I think there's a good foundation in there.  FFG is moving this game into a broader list building world, but the initial onboarding cost of this game will be a tough sell for some new players, and the budget conscious will gravitate towards what will be effective and inexpensive to both play and purchase.  This will certainly lead to a sense that only a certain build is "the meta" which is technically true, but consider that a new player has to build this collection of plastic toys from the ground up, versus an early adopter like myself that just picks up a box every now and then to stay current.

Next week the Droids packs are officially available.  The Store Championship season will have its meta shuffled accordingly.  You will still see Weequays.  But you will also see Droids.  You may see players moving on to try other things for fun.

When Heart of the Empire comes out, you will see a lot of Darth Vader, because he's about as iconic as it gets for this game.  He will be effective, and will win games, but he will not be unbeatable with the tools that will be available to a savvy player.  You will still see Weequays.

It's fine.

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I for one would like to know the overall faction spread at worlds, beyond the top 16.

did the prevalence of scum in the top 16 correspond to an increase in scum players at this worlds?

new toys and all that

Edited by Majushi

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I'd like to chime in and say that Rebels are still doing just fine. I ran a Luke and Obiwan list (one of the few without rangers). I was a die roll away from the top 16 cut, losing my last match 39-40. Jedi Luke is less consistent than the hunters for the most part, but he generally does his work (and is a blast to play). I saw a respectable minority of players with rangers and Luke lists here. 

The imperials had a respectable minority as well, with most people starting with a core of Terro and eJets, but the rest of their lists were somewhat varied. And as pointed out above, Imperials are about to get a huge boost (we're about to see the end of Rogue One played out on the board again and again). All that is to say, I think the meta is in great shape. The spoiled cards all feel like they'll be competitive without becoming auto-includes. Each wave is broadening the pool of viable lists and centerpieces. I think we're headed in a great direction :-). 

-ryanjamal

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31 minutes ago, ryanjamal said:

I'd like to chime in and say that Rebels are still doing just fine. I ran a Luke and Obiwan list (one of the few without rangers). I was a die roll away from the top 16 cut, losing my last match 39-40. Jedi Luke is less consistent than the hunters for the most part, but he generally does his work (and is a blast to play). I saw a respectable minority of players with rangers and Luke lists here. 

The imperials had a respectable minority as well, with most people starting with a core of Terro and eJets, but the rest of their lists were somewhat varied. And as pointed out above, Imperials are about to get a huge boost (we're about to see the end of Rogue One played out on the board again and again). All that is to say, I think the meta is in great shape. The spoiled cards all feel like they'll be competitive without becoming auto-includes. Each wave is broadening the pool of viable lists and centerpieces. I think we're headed in a great direction :-). 

-ryanjamal

I was talking to Paul (lead designer) the other day and he was worried he was focusing too much on Skirmish. Ie we have a sympathetic ear in the lead chair and I think it's only going to get better :)

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What other day?

 

Paul is not at FFG, so freelance at best, Todd is running the "IA team" as far as I have understood.

Anyway, Skirmish has gotten a lot of consideration.

 

Edited by a1bert

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12 hours ago, a1bert said:

What other day?

  Hide contents

Paul is not at FFG, so freelance at best, Todd is running the "IA team" as far as I have understood.

Anyway, Skirmish has gotten a lot of consideration.

 

Not Todd, but the guy with the beard. I suck at names, so please don't take offense, any Devs reading this :P

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