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Can 1 upgrade card be used for multiple units?

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2 minutes ago, rowdyoctopus said:

Destiny is so much better than so many other CCGs, too.  But I get it.  I wish I had more disposable income right now, but I'll have to be content with not as much Spirit of Rebellion  I want and instead enjoy the Runewars expansions I'm getting. :-)

On top of just the price, the distribution has been a nightmare.

In order to guarantee I get the cards I need (want) I'd need to pre-order entire boxes, and do it early, because there are barely any boxes left to sift through for individual boosters.

Pass. (At least for me)

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1 hour ago, rowdyoctopus said:

Destiny is so much better than so many other CCGs, too.  But I get it.  I wish I had more disposable income right now, but I'll have to be content with not as much Spirit of Rebellion  I want and instead enjoy the Runewars expansions I'm getting. :-)

I was all in on Awakenings, but discovered this game, since then I limited my SoR to 1 box, and think I am done with destiny, I have rediscovered my joy of painting minis and playing a very fun mini war game.  I can't afford both games, so looks like I am a convert.

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22 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

On top of just the price, the distribution has been a nightmare.

In order to guarantee I get the cards I need (want) I'd need to pre-order entire boxes, and do it early, because there are barely any boxes left to sift through for individual boosters.

Pass. (At least for me)

A lot of FFG Star Wars games are a nightmare to start.  I had the benefit of demoing Destiny at a distributor event in September (well after Destiny production was underway) and stores were lukewarm on it at best until they played it.  I'm giving them one more set to get things running smoothly.

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On 2017-5-27 at 7:17 PM, Tvayumat said:

I'd like to toss my hat in with the "I prefer to play with all tournament legal components" crowd, and I'd like to add a personal reason to the pile.

I like collecting stuff. I have the collector's bug. Particularly cards. Oh, man, it was hard for me to avoid getting into SW: Destiny... I got the first set, completed it, looked at how hard it was going to be to keep up with the steady releases and, only now, at age 30, do I finally find the internal strength to say "No" to CCGs.

RMG, X-Wing, Armada... they all have just a touch of card collecting in them. It's not much, but it's enough to scratch that itch.

Flipping through my binder pages of cards is bizarrely satisfying.

I don't know if you play waiqar, but after playing a tournament yesterday, all waiqar vs daqan matches were lost by waiqar (even though in one the waiqar got insanely good 2 consecutive rolls and the daqan terrible ones in a key reanimates vs spearmen combat). We are extremely dependant on combat ingenuity (our most overpowered upgrade) and that means spending 25€ per card.

Given the fact that 3x3 spearmen with kari or citadel weapons master and frontline rune golem often reaches 12-20 damage, and even in theory they can achieve 30 damage (and able to hit first and easily outmaneuvering waiqar), you desperately need to blight them to at least reduce 1 or 2 dice and prevent the absolute slaughter. But carrion lancers are also dependant on blight and they're not good blighters, as they blight+move in stead of move+blight (flanking units such as oatshworn cavalry will charge you before you blight). So you need at least 2 archer units with combat ingenuity for a serious chance to beat daqan.

To have an impressive ammount of power, such as 2 units of archers with combat ingenuity or similar I need to expend 25 extra euros. If I want to use the powerfull 2x2 or 3x2 CL with master crafted weapons and combat ingenuity, the same, if I want to field death knights with duskblade and combat ingenuity the same.

So to withstand the overpower of daqan we have some very powerful combos, but if you want to use them, prepare your wallet. That's why we'd be happy to see copied cards allowed on tournaments, as far as you owe at least one copy of the original card.

Spending a lot of money to collect it all is a beautiful option for collectors, but having to spend a lot of money to play competitive while daqan only need one copy of each box in general is quite unfair.

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12 hours ago, druchii7 said:

I don't know if you play waiqar, but after playing a tournament yesterday, all waiqar vs daqan matches were lost by waiqar (even though in one the waiqar got insanely good 2 consecutive rolls and the daqan terrible ones in a key reanimates vs spearmen combat). We are extremely dependant on combat ingenuity (our most overpowered upgrade) and that means spending 25€ per card.

Given the fact that 3x3 spearmen with kari or citadel weapons master and frontline rune golem often reaches 12-20 damage, and even in theory they can achieve 30 damage (and able to hit first and easily outmaneuvering waiqar), you desperately need to blight them to at least reduce 1 or 2 dice and prevent the absolute slaughter. But carrion lancers are also dependant on blight and they're not good blighters, as they blight+move in stead of move+blight (flanking units such as oatshworn cavalry will charge you before you blight). So you need at least 2 archer units with combat ingenuity for a serious chance to beat daqan.

To have an impressive ammount of power, such as 2 units of archers with combat ingenuity or similar I need to expend 25 extra euros. If I want to use the powerfull 2x2 or 3x2 CL with master crafted weapons and combat ingenuity, the same, if I want to field death knights with duskblade and combat ingenuity the same.

So to withstand the overpower of daqan we have some very powerful combos, but if you want to use them, prepare your wallet. That's why we'd be happy to see copied cards allowed on tournaments, as far as you owe at least one copy of the original card.

Spending a lot of money to collect it all is a beautiful option for collectors, but having to spend a lot of money to play competitive while daqan only need one copy of each box in general is quite unfair.

Waiqar took our last 200 pt tournament 3-0.

Hobbies cost money.

Edited by Tvayumat

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On 6/4/2017 at 1:46 AM, druchii7 said:

I don't know if you play waiqar, but after playing a tournament yesterday, all waiqar vs daqan matches were lost by waiqar (even though in one the waiqar got insanely good 2 consecutive rolls and the daqan terrible ones in a key reanimates vs spearmen combat). We are extremely dependant on combat ingenuity (our most overpowered upgrade) and that means spending 25€ per card.

Given the fact that 3x3 spearmen with kari or citadel weapons master and frontline rune golem often reaches 12-20 damage, and even in theory they can achieve 30 damage (and able to hit first and easily outmaneuvering waiqar), you desperately need to blight them to at least reduce 1 or 2 dice and prevent the absolute slaughter. But carrion lancers are also dependant on blight and they're not good blighters, as they blight+move in stead of move+blight (flanking units such as oatshworn cavalry will charge you before you blight). So you need at least 2 archer units with combat ingenuity for a serious chance to beat daqan.

To have an impressive ammount of power, such as 2 units of archers with combat ingenuity or similar I need to expend 25 extra euros. If I want to use the powerfull 2x2 or 3x2 CL with master crafted weapons and combat ingenuity, the same, if I want to field death knights with duskblade and combat ingenuity the same.

So to withstand the overpower of daqan we have some very powerful combos, but if you want to use them, prepare your wallet. That's why we'd be happy to see copied cards allowed on tournaments, as far as you owe at least one copy of the original card.

Spending a lot of money to collect it all is a beautiful option for collectors, but having to spend a lot of money to play competitive while daqan only need one copy of each box in general is quite unfair.

Most tourmanents are run locally.  I'd advise you to convince whomever is running the tournament to allow proxie cards.  It's good for the health of the game overall.

 

At FFG run events, chances are you will need the actual cards.

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21 minutes ago, bryanc said:

Most tourmanents are run locally.  I'd advise you to convince whomever is running the tournament to allow proxie cards.  It's good for the health of the game overall.

At FFG run events, chances are you will need the actual cards.

The organization has a possitive opinion about that, but as a sign of respect to the shop that lets us celebrate the tournaments, he told me that it could be not good recieved by the shoppers. They apply authenticity in a serious way for magic the gathering and X wings and he told me that we couldn't expect to be treated in a different way.

So I'll probably spend (waste) 25€ on a second reanimate archers expansion box, as I find it unlikely to use so many archer miniatures on the battlefield

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22 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

Hobbies cost money.

Yeah, that's a poor excuse for an awful policy.

I have to believe that the main reason FFG requires the original cards is because there's some jerkwad out there who would print out their own cards and change the text and cheat to victory in OP events. A points shaving, a slight rewording, range tweak, whatever. It's sad, but true. Other than that there's no good reason I can see to force people to spend $$$$ for a single upgrade card (remember the $100 C-3PO card for Xwing?). And I'm sure some IP claim about the property being used without permission. 

It's easy enough for friendly games and any non-FFG-sponsored events to just copy a card and use it as proxy for the units you want it for. Maybe not do the token thing, but just run a copy off and stick it in a sleeve. It's for personal use, do what keeps you happy.

With the trend by many hobby companies today printing stat cards online and allowing players to download them it's odd that FFG would continue this particular practice. Heck, for RW if they really wanted to promote things they'd do a POD upgrades deck. Stick them all in, force you to buy a few you may not need, but at least can buy at a reasonable price without sticking you with plastic you won't need/want more than X of.

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1 hour ago, keltheos said:

Yeah, that's a poor excuse for an awful policy.

I have to believe that the main reason FFG requires the original cards is because there's some jerkwad out there who would print out their own cards and change the text and cheat to victory in OP events. A points shaving, a slight rewording, range tweak, whatever. It's sad, but true. Other than that there's no good reason I can see to force people to spend $$$$ for a single upgrade card (remember the $100 C-3PO card for Xwing?). And I'm sure some IP claim about the property being used without permission. 

It's easy enough for friendly games and any non-FFG-sponsored events to just copy a card and use it as proxy for the units you want it for. Maybe not do the token thing, but just run a copy off and stick it in a sleeve. It's for personal use, do what keeps you happy.

With the trend by many hobby companies today printing stat cards online and allowing players to download them it's odd that FFG would continue this particular practice. Heck, for RW if they really wanted to promote things they'd do a POD upgrades deck. Stick them all in, force you to buy a few you may not need, but at least can buy at a reasonable price without sticking you with plastic you won't need/want more than X of.


I guess I fail to understand how "Please buy our game before participating in official competitive play" is an awful policy.

You don't have to buy $50 codices, you don't have to buy four boxes of models just to get the components to model ONE squad up to WYSIWYG rules, you don't have to buy a new supplement book every few months... All you need to do... is buy the models/upgrades you want to play with.

You can buy boxes, you can trade with friends, you can buy just the upgrade on ebay if it makes you happy.

I'm personally more than a little tired of seeing FFG's card distribution addressed as "awful" or any number of synonyms simply because, as far as I can tell, people prone to making mountains of molehills and are content to ignore the fact that virtually every single wargame competitor to RMG costs an order of magnitude more money at minimum investment levels.

It's almost entirely a non-issue. How many copies of Combat Ingenuity do you need? Really? How many? I'd be hard pressed to squeeze three into a list. Like, I'd REALLY have to try to even WANT to do that, and most Waiqar players will be buying at LEAST two boxes of reanimate archers to fill out the max formation size.

So, what's the issue? That you might *want* to buy an extra box of reanimate archers (which you WILL be able to use anyway) because you want to play an outlier list? You don't even need to buy it to test it, this would ONLY be if you played the list, liked it, and wanted to take it to a competitive level.

Let's say you wanted to run multiple units of reanimate archers, minimum size, ALL with CI... well... it just so happens CI comes with exactly the number of models you need to do that so... again... NOT A REAL ISSUE.

About the only people who run any real risk of having models they can't/won't use due to buying for upgrades are saps like me who bought three core sets.

Rinse and repeat for any other upgrade. Give the game more than ONE wave of upgrades and see how many duplicates you're swimming in before deciding, why don't ya?
 

Edited by Tvayumat

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@TvayumatI think we agree that GW's policies are obnoxious. So terrible that they lead to the destruction of one of their main franchises: WFB. It's out of discussion that FFG treat the customer with more respect than GW. But in the opinion of many of us the card sales policy makes the game not so good. Doing it better than GW is really easy.

Runewars: the miniature game, should be a sold as a miniature game, not as a card and miniatures game.

If you play magic it's reasonable to ask the players to use only company produced cards and there's nothing else to sell.

Card duplicates prohibition is as logic as a non official template prohibition, as far as they should just be accesories to play the miniatures.

Of course that's their corporative strategy and their rightful choice but it will take it's toll. I'm not rich and I do like to play wargames in a competitive way. I thought I could collect a second army such as Uthuk Y'llan or a rumoured Orc force, but regarding the expenses I don't think so.

The strategy of cards and miniatures in a box is probably used without a bad intention, but that's not the most attractive choice for the customer.

No need to play 3 or 4 copies of combat ingenuity but:

  • 4 death knights + CI + duskblade
  • 4 carrion lancers + CI + MCW
  • 4 archers + CI

are 150 points and sounds terribly competitive if you add it a 6 reanimates unit with a decent deffensive build could be an excellent tournament choice.

Note that I don't complain about having to buy 2 carrion lancers boxes, as I'll want to play those miniatures together in some lists, but my complaint is that I'll probably have to buy archers that I don't want to use just to use the cards.

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1 hour ago, druchii7 said:

@Tvayumat

Runewars: the miniature game, should be a sold as a miniature game, not as a card and miniatures game.

Here we have the root of the problem. It comes down to a few people thinking FFG should conduct business a different way, and has everything to do with preference over any actual monetary value, as the game is still cheaper and more accessible than anything from FFG's competitors.

Runewars IS a card and miniatures game, and I find it frustrating to continually come across feckless moaning over something that A.) Isn't going to change and B.) Is far from insurmountable.

Of course, every bit as much as I think people need to come to terms with the distribution model, I guess I need to come to terms with the fact that said moaning is absolutely going to occur, regardless.

So, with that in mind, I am going to endeavor not to moan about the moaning.

Edited by Tvayumat

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At least the continuous complaints might lead to paliatives. For example, an extra copy of combat ingenuity on carrion lancers would have solved lots of problems. Some upgrade cards are included in more than one product. I know it won't happen, because the skill cards on that box are grey and not purple.

In my experience with Corvus Belli feedback without a tenacious persistence goes to nowhere.

I'm not complaining about the price. That's their choice. I'm complaining about a not so well planned product (maybe CI should have been placed with carrion lancers or in both CL and RA) and I hope they take that feedback in consideration for future releases.

Infinity wouldn't be there without the ferocious but often accurate criticism that they recieved on their forums and that improved dramatically some big failures which produced a slower echonomic growth, such as unintelligible rulebook, unequal size between similar miniatures and lots of rules improvements. And only after years and years of debate did they priorize those aspects.

X-wings is said to have an obnoxious card policy, my friends who play it say "the card you want is always for the other faction". I'm not a big fan of star wars, buy knowing that I'm sure that I'll never ever give that game a chance. It seems that they've learnt the lesson, and the upgrade card policy seems to have improved a lot. But to improve a lot is not the same as to become perfect.

Most complaints are thrown by people who actually love the game and would like to see certain aspects improved on it. Some players have a special empathy with the company and share their decissions. I find it reasonable and experienced that feeling several times. But feedback and constructive criticism is a great tool to help the company reach a wider ammount of players/customers.

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2 hours ago, rowdyoctopus said:

Yeah, I would wait until we have more expansions before deciding that Combat Ingenuity doesn't show up again...

I was about to make this same point...I have a list that runs 3 CI's because 3x2 worms with 2 2x1 archers seems fun to me.  I don't need to get my second box of archers...but I will most likely get one, will I hold out and see if MAYBE it comes with the DKs sure why not, though it probably won't show up then I'll will definitely be picking it up... This argument currently really only applies to the future official organized play that leads to the worlds... Until then it seems like the general consensus is that as long as players have one legit copy everything is cool in the casual scene...It sucks that this argument isn't going to go away...

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7 hours ago, rowdyoctopus said:

Yeah, I would wait until we have more expansions before deciding that Combat Ingenuity doesn't show up again...

That would be sweet, but so far only the cards in the core box are repeated, right?

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10 minutes ago, druchii7 said:

That would be sweet, but so far only the cards in the core box are repeated, right?

And with two whole Waiqar expansions released so far, we should definitely start drawing conclusions on long term card distribution right now.

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3 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

And with two whole Waiqar expansions released so far, we should definitely start drawing conclusions on long term card distribution right now.

I don't know the patterns in X-wings. Actually I should claim more CI cards ir the final decissions are still to be taken

Edited by druchii7

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I mean, you could run Archers with upgrades besides Combat Ingenuity, right?

It sounds to me that people's perceptions of what the "best combo" is leads to frustration with the way cards are being utilized by FFG, not because of any action on their part. 

Do they benefit from people buying multiple boxes? Of course, but that's due to players perceptions as to what's "teh best" rather than a business model. 

I'm enjoying trying different options for my units, as it gives them more Individual option on the table than "Rinse Repeat Squad #3".

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That's a bit simplistic. There are maths behind those affirmations.

For example a 2x1 carrion lancers unit should rely on their skill (they have threat 2) and therefore there's no need to add the CI card. 1 red and 2 blue doesn't grant many damage in your rolls, 2 results as an average, so they need to use their skill to do a serious damage to those powerful flank units such as oathsworn cavaly (which are generally deployed on 2x2 units) or kari, not that killy but defense 3 is not easy to kill for them.

However a 3x2 carrion lancer unit is both powerful and expensive. Powerful threat invites you to use combat ingenuity + master crafted weapons, as you'll rarely find enemies with defense 4. And a so expensive unit makes it desireable to be a good standalone unit. That configuration makes them independent from support archers that blight.

We suffer from a gameplay that implies a complicated and fragile synergy, while others can use a very strightforward gameplay. CI is key, because it grants or synergies (archers do at least 1 blight, which is not much but enough to trigger all our mechanics) or releases us from that synergy dependence, as a carrion lancer deathstar can crush powerful enemies without the need of blights.

There are other ways to generate blight, but not too proficient. CL skill is hard to be applied, as engaged enemies cannot be targeted and it's often better to maneurver/countermaneuvre (as by this time we have no cavalry nor any other mobile units). The reanimates with heavy upgrade are a lot better: the can fist move and then blight, buy there are still not miniatures for sale and that upgrade card only works while you aren't engaged and reanimates often engage in very long combats.

To sum up, it's a quite overpowered card in a quite underpowered army, it solves most of our problems and makes us a decent rival for daqan. We need more than one on many competitive lists.

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On 6/7/2017 at 4:30 AM, druchii7 said:

To sum up, it's a quite overpowered card in a quite underpowered army

I really don't agree with either of those points at all. And really I think that's the crux of the problem, if you think that it's the end all be all upgrade on anyone that can take it, then yeah you will need a ton, but having put all this on the table a bunch I can tell you it's really not. Is it good? Yes, of course. Is it so overpowered that you should never take anything else? Not even close.

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