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So, apparently, Rieekan is "broken" levels of OP. What fixes him?

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33 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Squadrons?  If you do recognize my name and think squadrons.  I've been saying for months that the exact Yavaris Pelta 3 transports Rieekan 134 bomber squadrons was an OP list.  

Lolz. Yeah, I think I may have noticed :P

But my point wasn't squadrons, so quoting me and then ranting about how you've always been right was kind of pointless, no?

My point was Rieekan. And how he's gained in utility, from when he was a "bad player's commander" back in w2 (which he wasn't) and up until now.

I think it's more about flotillas than anything else.

Extra uniuqes are good oc, but I've had my *** handed to me by Rieekan list wo too many uniques.

But it's the **** flotillas that make it all possible.

And maybe the Pelta adds a bit on to of that too.

So squadrons are fine. Some of the synergies maybe not. Maybe.

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4 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Lolz. Yeah, I think I may have noticed :P

But my point wasn't squadrons, so quoting me and then ranting about how you've always been right was kind of pointless, no?

My point was Rieekan. And how he's gained in utility, from when he was a "bad player's commander" back in w2 (which he wasn't) and up until now.

I think it's more about flotillas than anything else.

Extra uniuqes are good oc, but I've had my *** handed to me by Rieekan list wo too many uniques.

But it's the **** flotillas that make it all possible.

And maybe the Pelta adds a bit on to of that too.

So squadrons are fine. Some of the synergies maybe not. Maybe.

I absolutely disagree with you.  Squadrons are not fine. 

Squadrons are mathematically the most efficient damage in the game, due to their consistency of dice modifications.  Mathwing tenet #1.  

Second, the regionals data doesn't agree with you on non-squadron Rieekan lists.  MSU lists are hovering only at 49-50% in the top quarter.  100+ Squadron lists are near 66% i think, last I check.  (Someone can let me know if I got it wrong). 

Its not about Rieekan's direct interaction with the squadrons, its that the squadrons are the best damage in the game, and are easily assured with Rieekan. BCC is the biggest problem.  

Let's say we want to have a constructive conversation, how about can I ask you what data points you have to support your opinions? 

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Biggs, as usual, has some very good and very productive thoughts.  I know the immediate reaction in this thread is against Rieekan, and indeed, since people first learned how to use him early in Wave-2, he's been a staple Rebel commander.  There are ways around him, but it isn't easy.

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1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

*snips stuff*

So, Demo received a nerf in the form of Flotillas. In fact it was such a great release nerf that Demo was no where in sight. 

Rhymer while good still has to take down Rieekan Aces and ships which likely means they will kill back. 

Next we have the fact that future releases can increase and decrease the viability of Demolisher and Rhymer while with a Commander they can only really grow based on what is in strength. Right now squadrons are strong and thus Rieekan is strong. 

 

The question is, how many regionals were won by Rieekan and how many store champs be won? Especially with the new Hammerheads 

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9 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

Biggs, as usual, has some very good and very productive thoughts.  I know the immediate reaction in this thread is against Rieekan, and indeed, since people first learned how to use him early in Wave-2, he's been a staple Rebel commander.  There are ways around him, but it isn't easy.

It is not. You have to strafe him and can't rush the squadron side of things... Giant pain

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10 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I absolutely disagree with you.  Squadrons are not fine. 

Squadrons are mathematically the most efficient damage in the game, due to their consistency of dice modifications.  Mathwing tenet #1.  

Second, the regionals data doesn't agree with you on non-squadron Rieekan lists.  MSU lists are hovering only at 49-50% in the top quarter.  100+ Squadron lists are near 66% i think, last I check.  (Someone can let me know if I got it wrong). 

Its not about Rieekan's direct interaction with the squadrons, its that the squadrons are the best damage in the game, and are easily assured with Rieekan. BCC is the biggest problem.  

Let's say we want to have a constructive conversation, how about can I ask you what data points you have to support your opinions? 

Frist: you're not reading what I write. I wrote about Rieekan WITH SQUADRONS. But not very many UNIQUE squadrons. Jan, Wedge, Biggs, some generic X-wings and say Scurrgs will do the job just fine. They did the job just fine back in December 2016, so nothing new there. 

The new uniques add variety - and maybe more potent synergies. And Pelta adds even more synergy on top of that. At some point it may have gone from very strong to nearly unstoppable.

But squadrons ARE fine.

It's the synergies that add up. And it's mostly related to flotillas.

The consistence you're talking about comes from...flotillas! Consistency of activation - both extra ship activations and squadron activations. And OC the stupid good BCC. Preferably 2, so you can both fish for crits AND "eliminate blanks".

But do we want to go back and make it a game where squadrons don't matter much?

I certainly don't.

I WANT squadrons to be important.

I WANT them to matter.

I know you don't. You're very vocal about that.

What, if anything, can FFG to balance things?

Future waves and FAQs will tell.

 

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2 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Frist: you're not reading what I write. I wrote about Rieekan WITH SQUADRONS. But not very many UNIQUE squadrons. Jan, Wedge, Biggs, some generic X-wings and say Scurrgs will do the job just fine. They did the job just fine back in December 2016, so nothing new there. 

The new uniques add variety - and maybe more potent synergies. And Pelta adds even more synergy on top of that. At some point it may have gone from very strong to nearly unstoppable.

But squadrons ARE fine.

It's the synergies that add up. And it's mostly related to flotillas.

The consistence you're talking about comes from...flotillas! Consistency of activation - both extra ship activations and squadron activations. And OC the stupid good BCC. Preferably 2, so you can both fish for crits AND "eliminate blanks".

But do we want to go back and make it a game where squadrons don't matter much?

I certainly don't.

I WANT squadrons to be important.

I WANT them to matter.

I know you don't. You're very vocal about that.

What, if anything, can FFG to balance things?

Future waves and FAQs will tell.

 

Let's pretend for a minute that you aren't already sniping at me in an aggressive manner with the "you"s and your statements of what I care about.  (Cuz, that's kinda rude).  

What am I not getting of your perspective?   Or are you getting confused between what seems to be responsive to you which I intend as statement of my own opinion?  

Let's also NOT IGNORE for a minute that I did ask you to back up your opinions... whatever they are with some numbers and some spreadsheets and some objective data, which I have done so throughout my time arguing my point here in the last 3 months, which you have now admitted to seeing.  

 

Repeat:  Please back up your opinions with data. 

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Blail Blerg and Green Knight, you are talking across each other.  You both acknowledge problem in the current state.  And that it is Reikan with Flotillas and possibly more unique/more potent unique squadrons.  

@Blail Blerg, though, I don't think pelta's is a part of the problem, it is a solid alternative  to assault frigates, Yvaris, and MC-30s.  

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14 minutes ago, DeadPunker said:

Blail Blerg and Green Knight, you are talking across each other.  You both acknowledge problem in the current state.  And that it is Reikan with Flotillas and possibly more unique/more potent unique squadrons.  

@Blail Blerg, though, I don't think pelta's is a part of the problem, it is a solid alternative  to assault frigates, Yvaris, and MC-30s.  

Exactly.

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32 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Let's pretend for a minute that you aren't already sniping at me in an aggressive manner with the "you"s and your statements of what I care about.  (Cuz, that's kinda rude).  

What am I not getting of your perspective?   Or are you getting confused between what seems to be responsive to you which I intend as statement of my own opinion?  

Let's also NOT IGNORE for a minute that I did ask you to back up your opinions... whatever they are with some numbers and some spreadsheets and some objective data, which I have done so throughout my time arguing my point here in the last 3 months, which you have now admitted to seeing.  

 

Repeat:  Please back up your opinions with data. 

I admit, I'm making a bit of fun of you. I apologize. It's just that you're so very vocal and opinionated, and you tend to rant. Which makes it easy/temping to make fun of you. Again, sorry about that.

I don't, however, think I need a massive dataset to have an opinion. It's based on own experiences and musings.

Anyway. I like squads. I like flotillas too. And Rieekan. But I think maybe we're seeing the op limit has been crossed in terms of synergies.

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55 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Let's pretend for a minute that you aren't already sniping at me in an aggressive manner with the "you"s and your statements of what I care about.  (Cuz, that's kinda rude).  

What am I not getting of your perspective?   Or are you getting confused between what seems to be responsive to you which I intend as statement of my own opinion?  

Let's also NOT IGNORE for a minute that I did ask you to back up your opinions... whatever they are with some numbers and some spreadsheets and some objective data, which I have done so throughout my time arguing my point here in the last 3 months, which you have now admitted to seeing.  

 

Repeat:  Please back up your opinions with data. 

Let's put simple:

The top are squadrons + Riekan, not squadrons + something else. There is not a super-massive Rhymeball for example.

I think it reinforces the point of @Green Knight about interactions. 

However I don't know the fourth feet. Is it 134 squadrons too?

For @BiggsIRL:

Crimson RLB (382/400)
====================
Gladiator I-class Star Destroyer (56 + 30)
    + Ordnance Experts (4)
    + Engine Techs (8)
    + Rapid Reload (8)
    + Demolisher (10)
Gladiator I-class Star Destroyer (56 + 23)
    + Ordnance Experts (4)
    + Engine Techs (8)
    + Rapid Reload (8)
    + Insidious (3)
Raider I-class Corvette (44 + 20)
    + Flight Commander (3)
    + Ordnance Experts (4)
    + Rapid Launch Bays (6)
    + Flechette Torpedoes (3)
    + Instigator (4)
Raider I-class Corvette (44 + 14)
    + Agent Kallus (3)
    + Ordnance Experts (4)
    + Flechette Torpedoes (3)
    + Impetuous (4)
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 + 25)
    + Moff Jerjerrod (23)
    + Comms Net (2)
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 + 7)
    + Slicer Tools (7)
Ciena Ree (17)
Most Wanted
Capture the VIP
Solar Corona

;)

Look for those squadrons and flechette them.

giphy+%25281%2529.gif

Risky and not easy but definitely fun.

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IF! Rieekan needs a nerf I think it should be that ship should lose there upgrades and don not get to reveal a command dial. Named Squadrons lose there special  ability's.

 

I think that would solve a lot of the problem's

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2 hours ago, BiggsIRL said:

To triple post here:  Top 4 at Worlds is Top 4 at Worlds.  Unless one of those 4 players is in your meta, go out and beat your meta at your own store.  We can complain more when Nationals roll around.

Well, I happen to play in OP's meta and I am all aboard the Pelta/Yavaris/3 GR-75 train as soon as I saw Parkdaddy's forum post. Being new and not particularly great at the game, I have no shame maximizing my chances to win, and I've definitely won more games than I've lost with the list and most of the time my mastery with the lost could hardly be called competent.

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I've actually ripped apart a couple of Rieekan lists with an MSU list of Raiders with a mix of Flechettes and APTs. Screed in a lifeboat, OE, and Kallus, made it considerably easier to almost indefinitely lock up the squadron ball, but you do usually have to sac a ship going into it.

Now, I'm not saying it's at all the answer. It's entirely anecdotal, and a result in a vacuum. I was interested in it as a third option compared to the usual "destroy all fighters or destroy all carriers"; negate all fighters, then remove carriers from behind. 

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2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Squadrons?  If you do recognize my name and think squadrons.  I've been saying for months that the exact Yavaris Pelta 3 transports Rieekan 134 bomber squadrons was an OP list.  

Come on the counter to this has go to be 2 decked out ISD's or an ISD/Interdictor combo with weapons teams, quad laser turrets, and H9's, and Kalis. Any commander should be suitable. The ISD sould have enough health to tank and the speed and firepower to destroy a Neb B and 3 lousy transports.  Flavour with TIE's as necessary to stop hold off fighters, simply run as a screen and not even look for initial engagement.

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I've never really had a high opinion of Rieekan,  in the sense that his ability for me personally dumbs down the game and essentially puts it into easy (easier) mode. This game is hard and unforgiving. If you mess up IE move too soon too fast etc you get punished and punished hard. This is what I really enjoy about the game the deep tactical levels within the game. There's always a critical part in any game when the tide turns one way, normally the part were you activate first blow your target up and prevent your opponent getting his shots off. Rieekan gives you that buffer for making a mistake and getting away with it in a certain sense (yes your ship still goes pop, but it gets that all activation back) how many times have you blown up a Rieekan ship and then had that same ship killed in return by the now zombie ship ? :) 

It makes it frustrating in the extreme. 

Now as stated I dislike Rieekan, but I do use him myself and enjoy using him. I do enjoy the challenge of trying to defeat him too. He is the Rebel admiral of choice for tournament play though, it would be nice to see more admirals out there used, it was very nice to see Ackbar make the top 4 after all the shouting about his ability when he first appeared in the game. There are counters out there for him and the good thing about the community is that when something starts to come out on top, everyone clubs together to find the counter. I'm certain one will appear soon enough. :)

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