Jump to content
xanderf

So, apparently, Rieekan is "broken" levels of OP. What fixes him?

Recommended Posts

34 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

 Caldias said he didn't have to play a squadron heavy list the entire tournament.  I didn't face a huge one either.  That's the luck of the pairings.  

I actually faced one Rieekan list, max squadrons with aces, with two flotillas, a Pelta, and Yavaris.  I was able to pull off an 8-3 on that one, but I definitely agree matchups are a huge factor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Caldias said:

I actually faced one Rieekan list, max squadrons with aces, with two flotillas, a Pelta, and Yavaris.  I was able to pull off an 8-3 on that one, but I definitely agree matchups are a huge factor.

Ah, my bad.  I must have misunderstood you at the tournament.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd be all for the not counting flotillas for tabling, but Rieekan not applying to squadrons really seems the best to me.  I've never played beyond the store level (can't travel on weekends due to work and a young family) but in my little local meta that seems to still be a good solution

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Muelmuel said:

change the winning conditions: when a player has no more non-flotilla ships left(i.e. he only has surviving flotillas and squads) that player is tabled.

Problem solved.(imo) :P

 

6 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

I'd be all for the not counting flotillas for tabling, but Rieekan not applying to squadrons really seems the best to me.  I've never played beyond the store level (can't travel on weekends due to work and a young family) but in my little local meta that seems to still be a good solution

These really only solve half the problems - you'll note that Rieekan "ramming" lists were also on the top tables, just not quite enough to place in the highest levels.  Nipping at the heels of it, though.

The problem with Rieekan becomes more obvious when you think of him not just on his decisive turn (IE., the turn when he starts suddenly doing something), but, rather, on the prior turn.

What he does, effectively, is let the Rebel fleet fly into point-blank range of the enemy with no risk.  Who cares if the ISD you parked your MC30 in front of activates first thing the following turn and blows it away?  It is still guaranteed a shot - overkilling it with 10 hit points, ramming it afterwards, etc.  None of that matters.

If you think of either side of the turn split as one continuous sequence of events - you see that what Rieekan is doing (more or less) is giving the 'Demolisher' title to every single thing in the Rebel list.  They ALL get that capability of 'appearing in range of the enemy and getting to take their shot, with no possibility of the enemy stopping it' (while Demo does it within a turn, for only one of its attacks - and Rieekan does it across turns, but for both attacks).

So the whole flotilla thing is...interesting, and maybe worth looking at (FWIW, I think flotillas were WAY too prominent - appearing in, AFAIK, every single list - I like them, but when something is in EVERY list...that's bad design)...I don't think focusing on that as the 'Rieekan solution' really is.

On kicking this around for a bit since the Worlds result...I'm inclined to throw my vote in with the 'some way to limit him' crowd.  Maybe it's as simple as putting a cap on how many times he can trigger in a turn.  Or perhaps he only stops a ship/squadron dying the FIRST time it 'dies' in a turn - a subsequent attack that also overwhelms the defense tokens still removing it from the table.  I think something along either of those lines is probably closer to what we need to see done...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

16 minutes ago, xanderf said:

 

On kicking this around for a bit since the Worlds result...I'm inclined to throw my vote in with the 'some way to limit him' crowd.  Maybe it's as simple as putting a cap on how many times he can trigger in a turn.  Or perhaps he only stops a ship/squadron dying the FIRST time it 'dies' in a turn - a subsequent attack that also overwhelms the defense tokens still removing it from the table.  I think something along either of those lines is probably closer to what we need to see done...

 So, you only want a fix for people who run bombers or MSU? Parking that shrimp in front of an ISD is perfectly fine?

 

On topic:

I think Rieekan is fine. The only admirals that help squads in ANY way are Rieekan, Dodonna, and Sloane... and squadron activations are currently very efficient. Removing the unique-zombie thing means Dodonna is the ONLY admiral that helps rebel squads. (Sato doesn't count: he helps your ships, but doesn't actually make your squads any better at winning)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, thecolourred said:

 

 So, you only want a fix for people who run bombers or MSU? Parking that shrimp in front of an ISD is perfectly fine?

 

On topic:

I think Rieekan is fine. The only admirals that help squads in ANY way are Rieekan, Dodonna, and Sloane... and squadron activations are currently very efficient. Removing the unique-zombie thing means Dodonna is the ONLY admiral that helps rebel squads. (Sato doesn't count: he helps your ships, but doesn't actually make your squads any better at winning)

 The finishing order at worlds shows decidedly that something is not fine. 6 of the top 8 and several more in the top 16 at the premiere national event after months of showing frequently in the top 4 of multiple regional events isn't coincidence. If there were viable non-Rieekan counters they would have already started showing up by now and we would have seen more of them at the top tables.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont like "whiners for the state of the game". You have seen me posting against them frequently. But if someone backs up his arguments with data, especially as extreme as this worlds', he is not a whiner.                                   There is something here, and indeed rieekan seems such a common thread. For the first time i believe flotillas too may be a problem. Personaly i like them; but showing up 2-3x in almost every list is too much. For any ship. Anecdotaly i dont see it, but tournament data support the claim. No ship, not just flotillas, not even the most iconic/exciting ship of the century should be 2-3x in every final-worthy list.

Edited by Kikaze

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you nerf flotillas, you get this. It had a strong showing in regionals. A player had to the dodgiest mc80 notch to avoid being stuck with its side arcs harmless. 

Nota flotilla in sight.

Ma Nebs 
Author: Ginkapo

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 398/400  

Commander: General Rieekan

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Hyperspace Assault
Navigation Objective: Sensor Net

 

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51 points)
 Salvation  ( 7  points) 
-  Spinal Armament  ( 9  points) 
= 67 total ship cost

 

Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (57 points)
 Yavaris  ( 5  points) 
-  Fighter Coordination Team  ( 3  points) 
= 65 total ship cost

 

[ flagship ] Nebulon-B Support Refit (51 points)
-  General Rieekan  ( 30  points) 
-  Dual Turbolaser Turrets  ( 5  points) 
= 86 total ship cost

 

Modified Pelta-class Command Ship (60 points)
-  Adar Tallon  ( 10  points) 
-  Fighter Coordination Team  ( 3  points) 
= 73 total ship cost

 

1 Green Squadron ( 12 points) 
1 VCX-100 Freighter ( 15 points) 
1 Luke Skywalker ( 20 points) 
1 HWK-290 ( 12 points) 
1 Rogue Squadron ( 14 points) 
1 Biggs Darklighter ( 19 points) 
1 Dagger Squadron ( 15 points) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

If you nerf flotillas, you get this. It had a strong showing in regionals. A player had to the dodgiest mc80 notch to avoid being stuck with its side arcs harmless. 

Nota flotilla in sight.

Ma Nebs 
Author: Ginkapo

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 398/400  

Commander: General Rieekan

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Hyperspace Assault
Navigation Objective: Sensor Net

 

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51 points)
 Salvation  ( 7  points) 
-  Spinal Armament  ( 9  points) 
= 67 total ship cost

 

Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (57 points)
 Yavaris  ( 5  points) 
-  Fighter Coordination Team  ( 3  points) 
= 65 total ship cost

 

[ flagship ] Nebulon-B Support Refit (51 points)
-  General Rieekan  ( 30  points) 
-  Dual Turbolaser Turrets  ( 5  points) 
= 86 total ship cost

 

Modified Pelta-class Command Ship (60 points)
-  Adar Tallon  ( 10  points) 
-  Fighter Coordination Team  ( 3  points) 
= 73 total ship cost

 

1 Green Squadron ( 12 points) 
1 VCX-100 Freighter ( 15 points) 
1 Luke Skywalker ( 20 points) 
1 HWK-290 ( 12 points) 
1 Rogue Squadron ( 14 points) 
1 Biggs Darklighter ( 19 points) 
1 Dagger Squadron ( 15 points) 

like i said, ANECDOTALY (in my own games) i see no problems with flotillas. however, i am biased in that i like the feel smaller support ships and squadrons provide in a fleet game. so maybe i cant see clearly.

but let me put it this way: if, hypetheticaly, i saw that 80% of rebels in the top 4 of regionals/worlds had to use 2 x cr90s (iconic ship! )across two whole years, and same for imperials needing to run dual ISD, i would still cry " doesnt matter it is iconic; 80% of lists use the same core ; too little variety", objectively speaking. maybe moar types of  flotillas is the solution, with different functions, so we see more variety but retain that awesome(imho) feel.

EDIT: but the whole flotillas thing is secondary. in my opinion we should get to the bottom of why so many of the top 8 lists at worlds were variations of the same list archetype.

Edited by Kikaze

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

You know...FFG thinks Rieekan is so bad they gave him a boost in CC: the zombie retreat resurrection :ph34r:

indeed, and its funny that it is SUPER CLEAR how it works normaly :P like, RAW definitely happens, as lame as it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just think we need to take a chill pill a bit on the subject of OP units. I know people are throwing around the argument that the same list is appearing all the time and in the top spots. Then using this bit of data to explain it  means that a specific unit/leader build is OP. 

I shall tell you a little secret:

Competative Armada is a complex system, it involves human beings interacting in a dynamic environment with many interacting random events. 

That means any  single point data like "what type of list make up is the winning"  is apsolutly useless for identifying why a complex system is not working correctly. It tells you what it tells you nothing more, in this case it tells you  rieekan lists are winning a lot, nothing more nothing less, you cannot then go on to draw a conclusion like "a component of this list is overpowered". To evidence that statement you would need to do a full mapping and analysis of the system, including collection and analysts of lots of different data. 

A second secret:

Most events in complex systems relate more to "human cultural" factors than "rules factors". 

So we actually have no idea why the  "rieekan is performing so well" event has occurred ,What could the reasons it be ?

in my view as starter list would be:

1) rieekan is overpowered 

2)rieekan is interacting with another rules factor 

3)it's a human factor:

a) rieekan is fashionable so everyone is taking rieekan

b) There is a story amongst the best most competative players that rieekan is good, therefore the best players are generally using rieekan lists.

c) Most People have not yet developed a good understanding of how to counter this type of list

4) Its a complex mix of two or more of the above.

So in my view we just chill a bit, wait to see what the new dynamic changes to the game will bring ( wave 6) , all practice taking down rieekan lists and sharing the tactics, experimenting with new fleets and most of all remembering that the Very best Competative end of the game will developed builds that will take a while for most average-good players time to figure the counters for. Some of these will take time to think through and become the high fasion of list building. Be comforted in that next year there will be a new boggy man list.

As for for flotillas, in my personal view I think small support units are thematic and add massive flavour. So what if  you pretty much have to take them to get a well balanced Competative fleet, fighters are the same and we don't moan because almost all fleets have fighters (well some do). I'm fine with the idea that if  you don't build a balanced fleet of unit types you will be less Competative, I'm of the view it adds sauce and flavour to the Competition side of the game.

so in conclusion my advise is don't jump to change what already is without fully understand all the reasons why and then having a very very good reason for the change, allow change to be more organic and less forced. Dont see the game through a lense of "that's wrong it needs to be this way instead" but instead think "I'm going to try this and see if it works or I want the game to grow this way". 

And have fun, it's a game of plastic space ships and grown men going pew pew, the piont is fun......

 

 

 

 

Edited by Jondavies72

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anti-Rieekan rant incoming - 

 

So here's the thing about Armada... it's not about Winning.  It's about winning BIG.   I've gone undefeated in tournaments, but placed 2nd to people that I BEAT in that tournament, because of Tournaments points.  To make top 4, your Margins of Victory had to have been pretty darn big most of the time.  Which means you probably didn't lose many ships to begin with.    And if you aren't losing many ships... perhaps Rieekan simply wasn't the best choice to begin with?   Imagine if you had chosen Dodonna?  

 

Edit - I suppose in the top cut Tournament points no longer matter and it's just win/loss, so maybe that's the point.... play well enough to get to the final table, and hope that Rieekan allows you to squeeze out the win at the very end?   

Edited by Crabbok

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Crabbok said:

Anti-Rieekan rant incoming - 

 

So here's the thing about Armada... it's not about Winning.  It's about winning BIG.   I've gone undefeated in tournaments, but placed 2nd to people that I BEAT in that tournament, because of Tournaments points.  To make top 4, your Margins of Victory had to have been pretty darn big most of the time.  Which means you probably didn't lose many ships to begin with.    And if you aren't losing many ships... perhaps Rieekan simply wasn't the best choice to begin with?   Imagine if you had chosen Dodonna?  

I think that's one of the reasons I'm not really convinced that there is a problem with Rieekan, I don't play him and my my preferred style can counter rieekan, in that it is fast fluid waves of ships coming in then not being around to get shot by using activation advantage, speed and manover, while farming points from missions and my opponents fighters and smaller ships. My figher balls are small and anti figher based backed up by very significant AAA, this tends to negate the advantage of escort/Biggs ect as the whole ball is being sprayed with significant damage. And I will happly focus on farming a fighter ball for 130 points then knock off a light ship or two if I can and farming my mission of all its worth. If I can do all that loss my fighter but keep my ships intact I'm happy. 

I hate being draw into brawls which is kind of what rieekan is all about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Crabbok said:

Anti-Rieekan rant incoming - 

 

So here's the thing about Armada... it's not about Winning.  It's about winning BIG.   I've gone undefeated in tournaments, but placed 2nd to people that I BEAT in that tournament, because of Tournaments points.  To make top 4, your Margins of Victory had to have been pretty darn big most of the time.  Which means you probably didn't lose many ships to begin with.    And if you aren't losing many ships... perhaps Rieekan simply wasn't the best choice to begin with?   Imagine if you had chosen Dodonna?  

 

Edit - I suppose in the top cut Tournament points no longer matter and it's just win/loss, so maybe that's the point.... play well enough to get to the final table, and hope that Rieekan allows you to squeeze out the win at the very end?   

You can absolutely win huge and still lose ships.  Just take all objectives that net you points.  I'm thinking Fire Lanes, Superior Positions, Sensor Net, Fighter Ambush, Most Wanted, and Precision Strike.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

 The finishing order at worlds shows decidedly that something is not fine. 6 of the top 8 and several more in the top 16 at the premiere national event after months of showing frequently in the top 4 of multiple regional events isn't coincidence. If there were viable non-Rieekan counters they would have already started showing up by now and we would have seen more of them at the top tables.

Maybe. Who knows. Maybe some lists would work but people decided against them. Though, Hammerhead Torpedo variant has a black die likely no ordnance experts though 

Edited by Lyraeus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Caldias said:

You can absolutely win huge and still lose ships.  Just take all objectives that net you points.  I'm thinking Fire Lanes, Superior Positions, Sensor Net, Fighter Ambush, Most Wanted, and Precision Strike.

In there you have the secret of not playing to rieekans strengths, farm points from the mission, don't go BTTW against his ships with your ships or against his fighter aces with your fighters. You can still get a good quality win.

Edited by Jondavies72

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, DUR said:

Random thoughts for non nerfy counters:

1. Something-something turbolasers:

scatter die may not be used at close-medium range

2. actual cluster bombs:

discard to add one black flak to all AA fire this activation

 

Although I generally hate to see nerfs to specific unit types I can defiantly see a place for something in regards to scatter tokens.  I think they made a we bit of a mistep in transferring what was a light fighter only defence token to a ship.

we also see it on a very nasty double blue dice, bomber,rogue as well,which I think is a bit un thematic/unbalanced. 

I could see some form of guided/smart weapons type card to counter scatter at close range, if you took it to medium range you would need an against ship only rule otherwise you would impact on aces to much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

If you nerf flotillas, you get this. It had a strong showing in regionals. A player had to the dodgiest mc80 notch to avoid being stuck with its side arcs harmless. 

Nota flotilla in sight.

Ma Nebs 
Author: Ginkapo

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 398/400  

Commander: General Rieekan

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Hyperspace Assault
Navigation Objective: Sensor Net

 

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51 points)
 Salvation  ( 7  points) 
-  Spinal Armament  ( 9  points) 
= 67 total ship cost

 

Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (57 points)
 Yavaris  ( 5  points) 
-  Fighter Coordination Team  ( 3  points) 
= 65 total ship cost

 

[ flagship ] Nebulon-B Support Refit (51 points)
-  General Rieekan  ( 30  points) 
-  Dual Turbolaser Turrets  ( 5  points) 
= 86 total ship cost

 

Modified Pelta-class Command Ship (60 points)
-  Adar Tallon  ( 10  points) 
-  Fighter Coordination Team  ( 3  points) 
= 73 total ship cost

 

1 Green Squadron ( 12 points) 
1 VCX-100 Freighter ( 15 points) 
1 Luke Skywalker ( 20 points) 
1 HWK-290 ( 12 points) 
1 Rogue Squadron ( 14 points) 
1 Biggs Darklighter ( 19 points) 
1 Dagger Squadron ( 15 points) 

My kinda list! Though... I wish there were more Escorts Frigates 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Jondavies72 said:

In there you have the secret of not playing to rieekans strengths, farm points from the mission, don't go BTTW against his ships with your ships or against his fighter aces with your fighters. You can still get a good quality win.

Yup. Also, baiting works. I baited my opponent into killing my Admonition forcing him to expend a lot of his squadrons to an area on the other side of my Liberty. While the Liberty flanked and punished his flotillas by catching them in bat positions. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...