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cobrophy

Imperial Advisor - The L5R LCG Show

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Well we went back and forth a bit on For Greater Glory, personally I didn't quite agree that it's a good card for bad players. But I can see the broader point that it's tempting to try and hold out for insane value from it whichis a trap. Using it even if it's just 1 fate return is still usually worth it.

 

Definitely agree completely about the core set and the subthemes - I'm very curious to see how, as the game develops, the need to play balanced vs focused evolves. At the moment you need to be balanced if only be deckbuilding necessities, but there's going to be a lot of variance depending on how you draw. The GenCon single box tourney will be massively so. 

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Did we say good card for bad players? What does that even mean? Does it rock for bad players but somehow good players just can't get it to work?

Poor phrasing aside, I do think it gives a temptation to try maximise the benefit from the card at the expense of the game. So a player will make as many Bushi as possible in the turn and will throw them into one single Military conflict looking to get the most Fate possible. In this hypothetical bad play, the focus became playing For Greater Glory rather than assessing the game state and making the optimal play. I still think it's a great card, a good player is going to get a great tempo boost out of it but I do think beginning players are going to lose games because of it. 

Edited by Bazleebub
Engerlish

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3 minutes ago, Bazleebub said:

A good player is going to get a great tempo boost out of it but I do think beginning players are going to lose games because of it. 

So it's a good card for good players and a bad card for bad players? :)

 

Let's just blame Andy for the phrase.

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Yeah, The analysis of for greater glory in particular I thought was really off. It is legitimately one of the strongest thing of that Lion has going for them right now on the conflict side.

One of the things that is a bit tricky to wrap your head around is that not all fate has  an equal effect on the game.  Getting one turn out of a lion's pride brawler costs 3 fate. A whole extra turn cost only one more fate.  This gives an amplified power to cards that put a fate on personalities. And FGG is by far the biggest effect along those lines we have seen.

 Put very simply, FGG wins games. It pretty reliably transforms a balanced situation into a hugely favourable board. Its conditions, limitations and costs just means it is strong as opposed to broken.

The analysis of Mirumoto's fury was also off. Paying 1 fate and a hand card to very reliably cancel a full turn from an attacker of your choice is an extremely favourable trade. It could easily be bowing out 3+ fate and 4+ skill of units and attachments. That is an incredibly strong effect. And remember, it doesn't require presence. I have seen it swing multiple games by bowing out the first attack of the game, leading to a 1-0 province advantage that is run home for the win.

Edited by Eugene Earnshaw

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10 hours ago, cobrophy said:

Well we went back and forth a bit on For Greater Glory, personally I didn't quite agree that it's a good card for bad players. But I can see the broader point that it's tempting to try and hold out for insane value from it whichis a trap. Using it even if it's just 1 fate return is still usually worth it.

Sure, I did notice you did not agree. You guys also made a lot of good points. I didn't want to sound overly critical, your podcast is a good one.

I'd set the benchmark for this card to be useful at 2 Bushi, since 1 conflict card for 1 Fate is pretty good and enhances your tempo  - since it allows to invest all your Fate into characters. If you do decide to count on FGG, the only thing making it a very risky strategy is Voice of Honor. Otherwise, I can't figure out how Crane (and most other Clans probably) can manage to stop Lion, that invested no additional Fate on their characters (tempo advantage) and possibly leaving some left for events, from breaking one of their provinces with a Military conflict. What Crane has going for them - which I probably didn't state clearly enough in my post, I blame writing late at night - is balanced stats and more efficient cards pound-for-pound (Brad Andres even confirmed this in the latest live: Lion stats are a bit lower for their cost, on average). Since having to defend is very disadvantageous (lose ties; Lion Stronghold in particular not helping you very much if you divide chars between attacks; to defend you have to leave chars out when attacking but your opponent decides afterwards, so you could be left with a sitting duck if your opponent decides to commit their chars to defend and avoids attacking), IME you're better off ensuring you can break a province without having to waste cards if your opponent decides to try some funny business rather than trying to fight uphill battles - which leads to Lion and Crane trading provinces every round of course, but, again IME, the player who attempted something different lost the game right there.

10 hours ago, Bazleebub said:

So a player will make as many Bushi as possible in the turn and will throw them into one single Military conflict looking to get the most Fate possible. In this hypothetical bad play, the focus became playing For Greater Glory rather than assessing the game state and making the optimal play.

Of course you don't send 3 Bushi in a Military attack if your opponent has a single Military char - that's a bad decision - but 2 chars are pretty much needed to break a province for Lion, so, since that's the benchmark for FGG, that card is going to be useful way more often than not, IMO (with the only caveat being the amount of Bushi you can get out, but that's the issue with Core Set decks).

9 hours ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

One of the things that is a bit tricky to wrap your head around is that not all fate has  an equal effect on the game.  Getting one turn out of a lion's pride brawler costs 3 fate. A whole extra turn cost only one more fate.  This gives an amplified power to cards that put a fate on personalities.

Agree with what you said. In particular, I think even the designers themselves might have underrated how important Fate is (I do hope they didn't and my impression is just a result of playing with a very limited card pool). In particular, something I also tried to highlight in my speculation article, is that you have to balance short term concerns (Tempo) with long term ones (let's say, Gaining Momentum?). A single extra Fate can grant you a significant advantage in the next round (if you have an expensive char out) while keeping you in condition to match your opponent's aggression tempo-wise in this round.

9 hours ago, Eugene Earnshaw said:

Also, since my comment was purely critical, let me add I enjoyed the episode. Keep it up!

Ditto.

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On 2017-6-28 at 1:14 AM, Eugene Earnshaw said:

Also, since my comment was purely critical, let me add I enjoyed the episode. Keep it up!

On 2017-6-28 at 11:26 AM, Eu8L1ch said:

Ditto.

Really enjoy the feedback and critique guys (especially when it agrees with me) so thanks for that. One of the dangers of putting an opinion out there - especially when you're doing it with limited experience of the cards in action is you're going to be wrong a lot of the time.

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3 hours ago, cobrophy said:

when you're doing it with limited experience of the cards in action is you're going to be wrong a lot of the time.

Speak for yourself!

New article up on the website full of 100% accurate, totally correct, and insightful info now available. Guaranteed1 to have no wrongness.

http://imperialadvisor.com/wp/2017/06/30/clan-focus-the-dragon/

1 This Guarantee is not a Guarantee 

 

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I agree on your rating of the Ancestral attachments. I find them to be a worse version of the neutral ones in most situations: Fate is very precious. Still playable for as long as Dragon lacks options, but I expect them to fall from grace rather quickly.

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Of course a card that gives the same effect for less fate is going to be "better" but I think it somewhat overlooks the approach that someone would take if they plan on going attachment heavy.  

If you are going to load up on one character that will generally mean you have fewer character purchases in the dynasty phase which will translate into you passing first and getting that extra fate that you can use to pay for those attachments.  Also you don't have to draw as many cards when ancestral attachments keep going back to your hand which may allow you to threaten an honor/dishonor win.

I don't think it is as clear cut as simply saying the cheaper card is the "better" card, in every situation, especially this one.  

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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Ishi Tonu, the point is that it's generally suboptimal to play attachments on cards that are going to leave play soon. Of course, sometimes you just need the boost so you'll play whatever you have,  but generally speaking you'll want to stick your attachments on something that's going to stay in play. Considering that Dragon, in particular, want to invest on few characters that are going to stick around for a few rounds, you can see why that's far from optimal. I think you are also underrating the value of a Fate token: while you can usually afford to draw a large amount of Conflict cards if you need them, Fate is going to be far more limited. To sum it up, having the option to replay that Daisho for 1 Fate in a few situations is not worth the total extra cost of 2 Fate (1 for playing it the first time, 1 for the second), especially considering that, by putting some effort into it, you could have a Fine Katana stick around for most of the game.

Edited by Eu8L1ch

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16 hours ago, Bazleebub said:

Speak for yourself!

New article up on the website full of 100% accurate, totally correct, and insightful info now available. Guaranteed1 to have no wrongness.

http://imperialadvisor.com/wp/2017/06/30/clan-focus-the-dragon/

1 This Guarantee is not a Guarantee 

 

I'm not seeing the Dragon game up on YouTube - uploaded yet?

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1 hour ago, Eu8L1ch said:

Ishi Tonu, the point is that it's generally suboptimal to play attachments on cards that are going to leave play soon. Of course, sometimes you just need the boost so you'll play whatever you have,  but generally speaking you'll want to stick your attachments on something that's going to stay in play. Considering that Dragon, in particular, want to invest on few characters that are going to stick around for a few rounds, you can see why that's far from optimal. I think you are also underrating the value of a Fate token: while you can usually afford to draw a large amount of Conflict cards if you need them, Fate is going to be far more limited. To sum it up, having the option to replay that Daisho for 1 Fate in a few situations is not worth the total extra cost of 2 Fate (1 for playing it the first time, 1 for the second), especially considering that, by putting some effort into it, you could have a Fine Katana stick around for most of the game.

Hmm, I'm not so sure. Ancestral Daisho is actually pretty good on a character that has no fate on them because you know you will get that weapon back in most cases, sparing you investing honour in subsequent turns to draw cards to get a weapon.

There is also some value in 'spiking' (boosting their attribute value) an unfated character with a weapon in order to break a province or win a Ring (or to protect against the same). Yes, you will lose both character and weapon but the trade off could be worth it!

Dragon also have a few tricks to keep their characters 'fated' (kezue, enlightened warrior, mantra of fire) so its possible (although not easy) to invest slightly less on a character initially if you think you can drop more fate on them at a later point.

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6 hours ago, Tam Palso said:

I'm not seeing the Dragon game up on YouTube - uploaded yet?

Should go up on YouTube soon. In the meantime the uncut version is on twitch. 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/155347232

I recommend having a search on twitch as a few other games by other fans have been uploaded and are enjoyable to watch. 

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On 6/30/2017 at 9:45 PM, Bazleebub said:

Should go up on YouTube soon. In the meantime the uncut version is on twitch. 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/155347232

I recommend having a search on twitch as a few other games by other fans have been uploaded and are enjoyable to watch. 

 

Just an observation after watching your game (and other games via Youtube):  The board swings when Champs enter play early, especially if Yokuni hits the board. The answer to dealing with him is to keep pressing the attack against Dragon until a Noble Sacrifice can be executed. What other answers are there? Bowing works temporarily, as does dishonour, but are there better methods? Because to me it seems like champion presence wins or loses games, and champion presence early is not often overcome. 

Have you guys tried Pacifism? 

We haven't seen all of the Phoenix conflict cards with influence, but I think this card could really slow down Yokuni... As can Doji Challenger when attacking first (lose the battle, but have Yokuni bow). Cloud the mind + Pacifism + Miya Mystic? 

I think every deck will have to run specific control elements for the Champions, primarily because they warp the board state so much. Thoughts? 

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1 hour ago, Anemura said:

 

Just an observation after watching your game (and other games via Youtube):  The board swings when Champs enter play early, especially if Yokuni hits the board. The answer to dealing with him is to keep pressing the attack against Dragon until a Noble Sacrifice can be executed. What other answers are there? Bowing works temporarily, as does dishonour, but are there better methods? Because to me it seems like champion presence wins or loses games, and champion presence early is not often overcome. 

Have you guys tried Pacifism? 

We haven't seen all of the Phoenix conflict cards with influence, but I think this card could really slow down Yokuni... As can Doji Challenger when attacking first (lose the battle, but have Yokuni bow). Cloud the mind + Pacifism + Miya Mystic? 

I think every deck will have to run specific control elements for the Champions, primarily because they warp the board state so much. Thoughts? 

We've so far resisted splashing other clans in the decks we've played. Mostly because we're trying to get an initial pure read on the cards rather than build decks to win.

But you're definitely right that champs can really swing the board massively. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing - they should feel big and badass. But not to the point where you basically lose the game if you don't have an answer. That said this game showed the pros and cons of them. 

I think every deck will have to have answers for a single big guy, whether that's a clan champ, a Mirumoto Prodigy stacked with weapons, or just a Wandering Ronin with fate.

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Interesting episode. :)

I agree with your remarks on Charge, it does seem very very powerful.

Same for Display of Power: it looks amazingly powerful to me, possibly the most powerful event we've seen so far. It's not cheap, but the effect is incredibile because of its flexibility: it gives you the power to deny your opponent what they would need the most in that situation, and there's no way they can prevent you from doing so. Losing the province and one honor hurts, but on the flip side you're likely going to use it when your opponent overcommits to win a critical effect - which potentially makes overcommitting against Phoenix a horrendous mistake. This card could warp the games involving Phoenix in the same way Way of the Crab does with Crab: by merely existing. However, unlike Way of the Crab, this card simply can't be played around: you can mitigate your losses, but you can't make it ineffective.

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On 18/07/2017 at 10:24 PM, Eu8L1ch said:

Same for Display of Power: it looks amazingly powerful to me, possibly the most powerful event we've seen so far. It's not cheap, but the effect is incredibile because of its flexibility

I think the 2 cost is a big thing. 2 cost events really need to be very powerful to see play. It's not too hard to pick up 1 fate in a turn though passing first or claiming off a ring - but getting 2 usually means holding over a fate which is always a tough choice. 

Interesting also that despite being a spell it doesn't appear to require a shugenja like most other spell cards we've seen.

As I mentioned if we see a phoenix card that reduces the costs of spells (so it was a 1 fate event) that could definitely push this card over the top.

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