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druchii7

Serious waiqar nerf

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I've played little, only 3 games, but I've read a lot and seen a lot of videos and I see a too obvious unbalance.

  • Waiqar are very slow. Their initaitives are quite sh*tty. Even Ardus is slow to be a character.
  • Ardus hits hard, buy kari is ridiculously powerful, she has killed 6 archers with her skill and the theorical limit is 8!! Ardus' CC skill is quite ok, but he shouldn' be more expensive than kari.
  • Move slow: reanimates can only charge 2!!!!! 
  • Easy to kill: reanimates have no armour choice and have low initiative to use +1 defense. Carrions are tougher and though die much easier than golems.
  • Blights are powerful but it's almost imposible to blight in close combat, so after turn 2 or 3 it's almost worthless.
  • The upgrade cards they really need are mostly on those expensive upgrade boxes. I beg them to release card packs with decent variety of the best cards, specially for waiqar

In conclusion, they needn't enormous overhaul, but they need a few key improvements to be able to bear with their lack of movility, their unbereable initiative and their weaker stats/control pannel in general, and blighting in combat is probably the key.

I want to debate about "how to rebalance the waiqar" and to predict how future expansion cards work on it.

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You've played the game three times. Probably at skirmish/intro level? And you think that puts you in a position to rule on game design and balance? Show a little humility!

I'm used to this kind of talk in X-wing forums, but at least there the game is old, complex, has tens of thousands of hours of play time, and lots of moving parts.

Waiqar are a control & synergy army right now - who knows what they'll become as the actual meat of the game is revealed. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and try again with them.

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They are just different to play. You can't charge in and expect to win in a fair fight. You need to use your dials to your advantage. For example the slow initiative charge can be really useful if your opponent moves into range before you activate.

At 100 points ardus isn't as good as Kari but at 200 points Kari's ability is much less powerful, the larger board means you can stay out of her range and more troops means when her ability goes off it kills a smaller % of your army. Also Ardus' upgrade passive will be really good when more expansions come out with smaller units being able to take better upgrades.

Carrions don't die as fast as golems, as long as they don't charge into the middle of combat. Again, you can't expect to win the fair fight. Flank and out-position, use your carrions to put blight on things.

With archers you can put blight on things attacking your reanimates. Your reanimates take a moral test if you shoot into combat but they don't really care about that, especially with steadfast.

If you can go upto 150 points and use 2 core sets, try a counter charge type attack. You have a 2x1 block of reanimates in front of a 3x2 block that includes ardus. Blight the enemy on the approach. When they charge your 2x1 block don't spend the blight, just let them die. Due to your slower initiative your 3x2 block can now counter charge without fear of taking damage that turn. You roll 2 red + white with 3 threat! That hurts! Next turn you have a slower attack but they are still blighted. When they attack spend the blight so you take little or no damage, then attack again with threat 3 rolling 2 red and a white. That hurts! You have now gone 2 turns dealing heaps of damage without taking much back. Your 2x1 + 3x2 block can take down the 3x3 blocks of spearmen using this tactic.

Edited by Qark

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2 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

Can we, as a community, please refrain from using the 'n-word' (I mean 'nerf') and refrain from posting 'fix this' threads until at least 2018? Please? Because that has been the most annoying and disappointing part of the X-wing forums in recent months. Apparently the calls/complaints were justified in that game, but we've had a good thing going here in the Runewars Miniatures Game, and I want to keep a positive atmosphere.

If you do feel there is unbalance, feel free to read other topics where people discuss their experiences, and try to approach the problem from a tactical point of view (as discussed already in some of the above posts). Maybe you can use the units in different ways to cover for perceived weaknesses.

Let'smake this the best gaming community FFG has ever had!

F*** YEAH! :)

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I have played the game twice...played undead both times and won twice. 
I have used Blight to completely shut down powerful units for a turn and then destroyed them.
Udead must be broken.
the game JUST CAME OUT...relax. 
use Blight to control Kari and use a carrion + Reanimates to tie up the Golem...let Ardus kill things...repeat.

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I have about 9 games under my belt thus far. (I had an AdeptiCon copy), and now two cores, so just over half have been on a full 3x6 but not quite 200 on 200 match ups.

All I gotta say is, tactics people. Be it Waiqar of Daqan they both have their strengths and depending on the mission and the setup and a number of strategic elements, it can go either way in any game I've seen.

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7 hours ago, banjobenito said:

You've played the game three times. Probably at skirmish/intro level? And you think that puts you in a position to rule on game design and balance? Show a little humility!

I'm used to this kind of talk in X-wing forums, but at least there the game is old, complex, has tens of thousands of hours of play time, and lots of moving parts.

Waiqar are a control & synergy army right now - who knows what they'll become as the actual meat of the game is revealed. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and try again with them.

That's absolutely right, but you'll have to admit that the waiqar victory ratio is very very low. Yesterday I got all the units where I wanted and not bad dice and though suffered a serious defeat.

After almost 15 years of wargaming I quite know what happens in wargames.

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Sorry to hear that you're having an unbalanced game experience, I know how dissapointing that can be. But I do think that the more you play, especially at 100+ point levels, the more you'll see that Waiqur are in fact very potent. I think I'd actually give them the edge in the two 150pt+ games I've played, with the Carrion Crawlers probably taking MVP.

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I had a humble two "intro" games (one core set only) playing undead both times.

Won both. Admittedly I have almost 3 decades of wargaming experience and my opponent has very little.

(he is a hardcore cardgamer and now X-wing for a year)

But with my limited experience in this very game I'd say it seems* pretty balanced the moment you play 2 core sets (160-odd points) or 'standard' 200 points.

 

 

*= seems. Because you know. 2 games only.

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1 hour ago, druchii7 said:

That's absolutely right, but you'll have to admit that the waiqar victory ratio is very very low. Yesterday I got all the units where I wanted and not bad dice and though suffered a serious defeat.

After almost 15 years of wargaming I quite know what happens in wargames.

When i hear that last sentence i have to roll my eyes... every time. I play for longer and it does NOTHING to underline anyones credibility in any way or form. If you play for 15 years and are such an expert (which i bet money on i find people with 2 times your experience who claim the oposite) then you should know that you can't know the game well enough in terms of balance after such a short time, especially since you dont even have all the expansions that are announced right now. No offense, but people who cry for nerfs immediately (which is different from " i have problems against faction X") i tend to ignore in the future because of them being such dramaqueens when it comes to meaningful balancing questions.

If you would have played around 100 games i would probably give you more credit, but right now it's a core set with core units. And in our games the undead lost all the time (5 times), which also doesn't prove anything. One of the big games we had was escort and i lost with the waiqar 144 to 143, and i had alot of fun. The wargaming experience on that table was combined 40 years by the way.
 

Edited by Lancezh

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Well in my group so far there have been about 5 games (maybe 6).  To date Undead have not won a game yet.  We use two core set, we have had different players behind the wheel.

I'm still not suggesting that means anything but at least in our group statistically speaking, Undead have never won a game.  Its worth pointing out that everyone in my gaming group is a hardened looooong time veteran of miniature games, most of them are actively playing 2-4 of them and we have games weekly, we even have a Regional Armada champion in our midst.

My assessment at this moment is that I think the OP is onto something, but I would argue that his points used for forming his opinion are quite a bit off.  (mind you I expect to have lots of changes of opinion for some time to come, it is after all new game).

I do believe Humans have an edge right now but not for any of the OP's listed reasons, rather for the following.

1. The Undead army is very much a "synergy" based army making use of Blight and Fear are critical to their success.  In a sub-200 point game, you have considerably less redundancy when it comes to maintaining this synergy (its easier to break up), in a core set only game you effectively have no redundancy (one error and your shut down).  Since the majority of people are playing sub-200 point games right now, I'm not surprised to hear that the Undead are not winning as often (this is the case in our games as well).

2. The Human units have Calvary, a fast unit designed for flanking weaker/slower units.  The Undeads answer to that is Archers, a unit which is specifically very susceptible to Calvary while simultaneously being the key to the Undead synergy.  Its not exactly a fair trade up, in particular in a low point game (see above).  

I think these are two tough issues to over come right now for the Undead.  Not saying it's not possible, but given equal skill, the Human player definitely has an edge if you are playing sub 200 points and in particular if you are just using the core set.

At 200 points however I would actually favor the Undead.  With redundancy created by more units on the table and since Undead units are generally cheaper we can create combinations that will ensure one way or the other our Synergies will trigger, but more importantly we can create a counter to the biggest human advantage right now, their Calvary.  Its much tough for Calvary to flank if you are able to have both your flanks covered by Reanimates and Lancers.  If you have ever seen a match up between Calvary and Lancers or Calvary and Reanimates you understand what I'm saying.  Calvary is great at taking out soft targets but they lack the models in a typical formation to hold up in a sustained fight and they are pretty expensive to field in larger numbers.  Their edge is really the ability to come around and attack weaker more susceptible units like Archers or to hit hard at a units flank that is already engaged and again, both of these aspects of the Human army can be countered in a 200 point game, but is much tougher to do in a sub-200 point game and basically not possible to do in a Core set game.

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5 minutes ago, Joker2007 said:

Pardon my stupidity, but what does 'nerf' mean in the gaming community? I don't want to start anything, I just don't know...

Heheh, well its basically its a request to "lower the power level", though in this context the OP got it backwards, he is requesting a Nerf for the Undead army but he actually means the reverse.  

You'll see this topic of conversation from today moving forward forever.  Miniature gamers are a very finicky bunch, they will debate about who/what is too powerful or too weak endlessly.  Its kind of a tradition.

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Just to echo everyone else...

1) Nerf means 'make something less powerful' not more

2) You played the game 3 times. FFG played it 100s of times. I wonder which one got it right? 

3) When I see 'unbalance' or unequal strategies/factions present themselves in a game - I don't think "OMG this game is so broken!" I think "oh cool, this game has depth, nuances and a learning curve, I can't wait to sink me teeth into it and learn more!" 

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Why does playing miniature games in general for so many years instantly make people experts on a new game that comes out...I played warmachine for 10 years but when I played x-wing that experience didn't really mean a whole lot, I played WFB but in this game the experience from there only comes across as "look I have blocks of dudes again."  This game has so many new elements that make it work so differently than other games that no one is at any place where they can unequivocally state that something is over or underpowered.  The point is, and this is something I am failing at, Waiqar are the synergy force so they are much more reliant on tactical planning and the whole army working together, where as Daqan are the I move forward and beat you in the face force, that offer much easier tactics to work with out of the box... 

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13 hours ago, banjobenito said:

Sorry to hear that you're having an unbalanced game experience, I know how dissapointing that can be. But I do think that the more you play, especially at 100+ point levels, the more you'll see that Waiqur are in fact very potent. I think I'd actually give them the edge in the two 150pt+ games I've played, with the Carrion Crawlers probably taking MVP.

tumblr_inline_n0c5869akS1rgc59x.jpg

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Just two games of skirmish here, but 2 Waiqar wins. Both games were very close and came down to direct combat between Ardus and Kari... a match up that Ardus should win most of the time.

That doesn't make me an expert on anything. I'm just suggesting that experiences vary and it might be worth trying to figure out how others are winning with Waiqar before jumping to the conclusion that Waiqar need changing.

Again, I'm no expert, but here's how I got my reanimates to charge my opponent's Oathsworn in my first game. The oathsworn had to choose between charging Ardus, or charging the reanimates. Menwhile, spikes were in the way preventing him from going around. We played cat and mouse for a couple of turns, but eventually he made a move to get in front of the spikes and came up short, allowing the reanimates to countercharge. Ardus charged in the following turn and thanks to the Oathsworn +1 defens action, they all stayed locked there most of the game.

I drew you a nice picture, but they're not letting me upload it for some reason.

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