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Tybrid

Training vs Prized Possession

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So, you have training on a character. Your opponent plays Prized Possession on one of the dice. You overwrite Training with a gun or something. Which die gets removed as the character is no longer elite? The one on Prized Possession? The other one? Who picks?

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26 minutes ago, Tybrid said:

So, you have training on a character. Your opponent plays Prized Possession on one of the dice. You overwrite Training with a gun or something. Which die gets removed as the character is no longer elite? The one on Prized Possession? The other one? Who picks?

The other one. The Prized Possession one has to adhere to to the rules of prized possesion, which says the dice cannot be returned to play unless the character is killed or the upgrade is removed.

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I see no reason that you cannot chose the die locked out by Prized Possession to be the one removed when you overwrite the training.

 

The effect that generated the die is no longer there so the die is no longer there.

 

Prized Possession only prevents the die from going back to the character, there is nothing that stops the die from being removed from the game.

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50 minutes ago, Mace Windu said:

I see no reason that you cannot chose the die locked out by Prized Possession to be the one removed when you overwrite the training.

 

The effect that generated the die is no longer there so the die is no longer there.

 

Prized Possession only prevents the die from going back to the character, there is nothing that stops the die from being removed from the game.

But then you could argue that the player with Prized Possesion in play, could then choose another die to remove, since the upgrade is still in play and hasn't been removed from the game

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2 minutes ago, MandoBard said:

But then you could argue that the player with Prized Possesion in play, could then choose another die to remove, since the upgrade is still in play and hasn't been removed from the game

No you really couldn't argue that at all.

if what you say is true then whenever you kill the character that Prized possession has a die from, you would then get to pick another character die from a remaining character. That's just crazy.

 

Remember all training does is make something elite, that's it. when a character stops being elite one of its die is removed from the game, the player controlling the character gets to decide which die to remove from the game, Regardless of where it currently is, and they would be perfectly ok to remove the one from prized possession.

 

you cant stop someone form having something that doesn't exist anymore.

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NEGATIVE EFFECTS (p17):
Negative effects take precedence over positive effects. If an effect says a player cannot do something, then they cannot do it, even if another effect says they can.

01102.jpg

 

As your dice does not return to you, I would say that not being negative means you have to remove the dice from the character.

Edited by Amanal

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25 minutes ago, Amanal said:

NEGATIVE EFFECTS (p17):
Negative effects take precedence over positive effects. If an effect says a player cannot do something, then they cannot do it, even if another effect says they can.

01102.jpg

 

As your dice does not return to you, I would say that not being negative means you have to remove the dice from the character.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can put this, by over writing training and it going from the discard the character loses its elite status.

In doing so the character goes back to 1 dice. to do this you must remove one of its 2 dice FROM THE GAME. you are not attempting to put the dice back on the character, which is in fact the only thing that prized possession actually does. Prized Possession cannot stop you from removing the dice from the game.

This is simply a function of the base rules of the game, not trying to break Prized possession.

 

Prized possession cannot control a dice that does not exist.

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My personal opinion is that either die could be chosen to be removed, but I put this thread up to spark discussion. It adds an interesting rules question as when Training leaves play, it changes the game state of the character, something not properly covered by either the FAQ or the wording on either Training OR Prized Possession.

 

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if I'm playing prized possession against someone with training I'm am going to ask my opponent which die is his characters natural die, (the die originally on the character when the game was started). Training I would assume makes a character elite, I would make a judge rule that training brings a die into the game and when it leaves play it should take the die it brought into the game out. I don't know if it's correct, but I believe a judge would rule that training brings a die in and when it's removed, removes that die. Therefore if you specify you are using prized possession on the characters original die and your opponent agrees, it should be simple. That being said I'm sure it's not that simple, but I'd make a judge rule against me before giving them a way out of a 4 cost upgrade.

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12 minutes ago, Rebeltrooper said:

if I'm playing prized possession against someone with training I'm am going to ask my opponent which die is his characters natural die, (the die originally on the character when the game was started). Training I would assume makes a character elite, I would make a judge rule that training brings a die into the game and when it leaves play it should take the die it brought into the game out. I don't know if it's correct, but I believe a judge would rule that training brings a die in and when it's removed, removes that die. Therefore if you specify you are using prized possession on the characters original die and your opponent agrees, it should be simple. That being said I'm sure it's not that simple, but I'd make a judge rule against me before giving them a way out of a 4 cost upgrade.

when an upgrade brings a die, technically when you resolve its die you place the die on the upgrade to denote that it belongs with the upgrade and that it came from the upgrade.

Training specifically tells you to put the extra die on the character card, thus the die is intrinsically linked to the character because the character is elite and is not linked in any way shape or form with the training card.

should the character stop being elite (in this case training is overwritten and the character stops being elite), you remove one of its die from the game. This is an effect of the base game rules, not that the die is linked with Training.

for reference here is the text from Training:

Non-unique Red character only.

Attached character is elite (place a second copy of its die on its card).

Edit:

Also both of the dice are "natural dice" for elite characters you do not denote which is the "non-elite" die and which is the "elite die" do you? because that's not a thing.

 

Edited by Mace Windu

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4 minutes ago, Mace Windu said:

Also both of the dice are "natural dice" for elite characters you do not denote which is the "non-elite" die and which is the "elite die" do you? because that's not a thing.

So, if you aren't able to make that distinction as to which dice is which surely I am returning a dice to the character?

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22 minutes ago, Amanal said:

So, if you aren't able to make that distinction as to which dice is which surely I am returning a dice to the character?

returning a dice to a character only happens when a card specifically tells you to return it to the character "remove it" with no other restrictions, i.e. block, isolation etc. or:

It has been resolved.

At end of turn if it is still in pool and hasn't been resolved.

No doubt there may be some other cards that interact with dice differently in the future, Carbon Freezing chamber is another that has caused a few queries as well.

Now when a character is defeated its character dice are removed from the game and put away.

Prized possession specifically prevents die from returning to characters that are still in play.

In effect what is happening when a character looses its elite status half of it is leaving the game.

 

Edited by Mace Windu

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It comes down to are the two different character die tracked as different dice. The only thing we have to go by is if the one character has two copies of the same upgrade and one upgrade leaves play, the player chooses which dice leaves play. If the rules are consistent (enter Waaaagh say they never are), then it would appear the player chooses which die, the one on prized possession or the original, to leave play.

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My thinking:

When a character has two copies of an upgrade, and one is removed by something effecting the upgrade (e.g. the upgrade is destroyed), the owner gets to choose which die they remove. It makes sense this would apply to a similar situation with a character.

When a player is forced to make a choice, a player can take a choice they can't 'pay' - as per Let the Wookie Win. As such, they aren't forced to choose the die that isn't on Prized Possession.

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From the tournament rules:

When a player controls multiple cards or effects that use a die with the same collector number, he or she must designate the specific card or effect that each die in their dice pool corresponds to. The recommended way of designating this is by keeping dice adjacent to that card or source of the effect, in their dice pool area. 

 

Based on that, I'd say an opponent can ask which is the "character" die and which is the "training" due and choose accordingly. 

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As stated a hundred times here. Training does not 'use a die'. It makes a character Elite. The rule of Elite characters adds the die. Training and the die added are segregated by this, so it doesn't work like those upgrades and the quoted rule does not apply.

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The player who controls the character that controls Training. 

If a Jedi Acolyte has Training on it and his opponent plays PP on one of the die and then the JA plays a holdout blaster on him to rewrite his Training, he can remove the PP die. 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Rogue 4 said:

The player who controls the character that controls Training. 

If a Jedi Acolyte has Training on it and his opponent plays PP on one of the die and then the JA plays a holdout blaster on him to rewrite his Training, he can remove the PP die. 

 

 

Pretty sure Training is Red character only

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On 4/24/2017 at 3:36 AM, Amanal said:

NEGATIVE EFFECTS (p17):
Negative effects take precedence over positive effects. If an effect says a player cannot do something, then they cannot do it, even if another effect says they can.

01102.jpg

 

As your dice does not return to you, I would say that not being negative means you have to remove the dice from the character.

It doesn't say you can't remove it from the game. You don't roll it, and you don't return it to the character. You just remove if from the game because it is no longer available. And the negative is removing a character die from the game, which removing Training does.

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okay, let me further explain. If I have a Training on a Rebel Trooper,  and I claim using Cargo Hold moving the training to my Jedi Acolyte and then my opponent plays Prized Possession. .........(continue with my example)

 

I know I didn't say that above, but I was just giving an example. 

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@Mep, is right, it's not completely covered in the rules yet.

That said, I don't think you need to track which die is granted from Training, because it's not granting a die like other upgrades, it's granting the Elite keyword.

And I don't think you can choose to lose the die on Prized Possession if it loses the Elite keyword.

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1 hour ago, netherspirit1982 said:

I don't think you need to track which die is granted from Training, because it's not granting a die like other upgrades, it's granting the Elite keyword.

I completely agree.

1 hour ago, netherspirit1982 said:

And I don't think you can choose to lose the die on Prized Possession if it loses the Elite keyword.

Why not? You are the owner of the die (and the controller too...) so I don't see any particular reason you wouldn't be allowed to choose that die.

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