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The Grand Falloon

Mercy Killing and Conflict

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1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

Yes - someone's viewpoint. Not someone.  Kind of a big difference. Your beliefs about Star Wars aren't you.

Right. Next time we'll get someone else to speak for you. Good call.

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31 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Aaaaaand you're making things up again.

Well, I guess that was the end of any useful conversation.

No, that was several posts ago when you started feigning outrage about someone trying to decipher your vague and contradictory posts.

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7 hours ago, emsquared said:

No, that was several posts ago when you started feigning outrage about someone trying to decipher your vague and contradictory posts.

Haha, outrage. No, that's amusement at your fumbling attempts at a conversational trap.

 

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4 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Haha, outrage. No, that's amusement at your fumbling attempts at a conversational trap.

 

Yes, so feeble are my arguments that literally the one time I engaged you to dispute a point you had made, and literally every time you have engaged me, you have either ended up seceding the conversation or pivoting to this tactic we see so often from you (including now) of playing the victim so that you may turn it into a pissing match that no one can win. And indeed everyone loses from.

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then how about you just stop derailing the thread with your bickering?  Derailing a thread to discuss a different bit of star wars is one thing. Completely going off topic just to toss barbs at each other, and using up an entire page of the thread to do so, is entirely different.

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15 minutes ago, The Grand Falloon said:

I came back to this thread thinking, "Oh, look! People must have so many insights!"  Nope.  Just another lightsaber-measuring contest.

To be fair, this is a subject that's too closely related to real life morality, which is...a touchy subject at the best of times.   So it's hard to really make any headway about the right/wrongness of the system, or how someone should act in a particular encounter, etc.   The Morality system has been one of the most contentious aspects of the F&D system since it was released, and it doesn't seem to show any signs of getting any less so in the near future.

Just make your own call on how it should play out in your game, and move on.  That's probably the best course of action in my opinion.

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27 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

The Morality system has been one of the most contentious aspects of the F&D system since it was released, and it doesn't seem to show any signs of getting any less so in the near future.

I think there's a little finer point to what we see in Morality system discussions. Between the various forums/communities I'm a part of w/ this game, Morality seems to be the hardest thing people have making "work" in the system.

The dice/adv/dis/triu is largely a learning curve issue, ppl don't get it until they do, then it's fine.

The damage system/lethality/strain you see complaints about, even from experienced players especially as you get higher in xp, but they're occaisional, and they usually have fairly straight forward mechanical "fixes", but that gets into some crunch that a lot of ppl might avoid and so it comes up again and again.

But Morality, GMs/players just don't even try to use, or they give up on, or they don't see it work like they perceive it in the SW media.

I don't think it has as much to do with ppls IRL Morality as it does the RAW Morality mechanic and guidance, and the inherent disparity that's gonna occur between a fully narrative medium, and a hybrid narrative/mechanical medium.

And when that disparity intersects with a dedicated forums tendency to adhere to RAW (which I get, and agree with to a large degree, it's our common frame of reference as a community), you get bile. [edit] This is observable across pretty much all systems.

Edited by emsquared

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12 minutes ago, emsquared said:

I think there's a little finer point to what we see in Morality system discussions. Between the various forums/communities I'm a part of w/ this game, Morality seems to be the hardest thing people have making "work" in the system.

The dice/adv/dis/triu is largely a learning curve issue, ppl don't get it until they do, then it's fine.

The damage system/lethality/strain you see complaints about, even from experienced players especially as you get higher in xp, but they're occaisional, and they usually have fairly straight forward mechanical "fixes", but that gets into some crunch that a lot of ppl might avoid and so it comes up again and again.

But Morality, GMs/players just don't even try to use, or they give up on, or they don't see it work like they perceive it in the SW media.

I don't think it has as much to do with ppls IRL Morality as it does the RAW Morality mechanic and guidance, and the inherent disparity that's gonna occur between a fully narrative medium, and a hybrid narrative/mechanical medium.

And when that disparity intersects with a dedicated forums tendency to adhere to RAW (which I get, and agree with to a large degree, it's our common frame of reference as a community), you get bile. [edit] This is observable across pretty much all systems.

I disagree that is doesn't intersect with real world morality, because I would say half the time, and I am guilty of this myself, people will use a real world example to be a counterpoint to someone else's post about what the "right" decision would be for a morality question.  This thread alone has evidence of people's different opinions about what would a mercy killing be.   Should it be conflict worthy at all?  If so, how much?  Is it as bad as outright murder, if the intent is compassionate?  These are the very same questions that discussions of morality have in the real world.  

And yes, it is also something that is frequently ignored, I think mostly because it's such a hot topic of debate, that can derail a gaming table, so some GM's just don't bother.  Because we all know that one player, who is going to try and justify killing a village of Sand People as not worthy of Conflict, because "well my character doesn't feel X would be a bad thing, so he's not conflicted about it."  And then you get into a contracted argument about it.  And this isn't unique to Star Wars, I saw this for YEARS playing in the White Wolf systems.  

And in my experience, with the various Morality discussions on this forum, the conflict with the system, usually (not always), stems from, like you said, it not working well.  And it doesn't in a lot of ways.   A lot of people have taken it as gospel, that morality chart, where others have considered it, more like guidelines.    To me, it's there to give a rough idea of the kinds of things that should be indicative of someone sliding down the slippery slope of Dark Sideyness.   And since most gamers want a metric for that kind of thing (because we nerds love our numbers in gaming...ugh), they came up with that chart.  It's not perfect, and it's not even required.  I've heard from people who don't use it at all, and just rely on their players being good enough at roleplaying a dark character, to pull off the roleplaying of their decent to the Dark.   And that's great...but I'm the only person at my gaming table that I feel could actually do that.  I don't know about anyone else's gaming group, but mine are predominantly a bunch of anti-social, semi-autistic recluses, who have SERIOUS problems with actually ROLEplaying anything.  They get flustered, tongue-tied, experience stage fright, etc.  They are NOT good at roleplaying a character at all.  They want the numbers, they want to do the math of the situation, and see their numbers triumph over my numbers.   So I can't really just rely on them to do it properly.   So, therefore, there is a chart that I can use, to give them a metric for this very nebulous, murky thing that is Morality.

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10 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

 They get flustered, tongue-tied, experience stage fright, etc.  They are NOT good at roleplaying a character at all.  They want the numbers, they want to do the math of the situation, and see their numbers triumph over my numbers.   So I can't really just rely on them to do it properly.  

Have you considered playing a system that's more in tune with this type of players? Some flavor of DnD or GURPS maybe? This isn't meant as some kind of diss. Just curious.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Have you considered playing a system that's more in tune with this type of players? Some flavor of DnD or GURPS maybe? This isn't meant as some kind of diss. Just curious.

 

 

They do play other systems that are more there flavor, but when I am GMing, I don't play those.  I personally dislike rules heavy systems, and after a few decades of playing D20, I've come to loathe it.   They play those systems with another group of friends, that I am not friends with, on a different day.   When I run though, it's the more narrative systems.  

Here's the kicker, they WANT to play them.  They love the settings, for games like Exalted, or Scion, or Aberrant, or the FFG stuff.  We read the books, and they geek out as much as me, and when we are brainstorming, they have great ideas.  The problem, is when we actually sit down at the table.   When it comes down to actual play time, and them trying to let go of their own ego a bit, and not worry about how they might seem to other people, and get into the spirit of the game, they hit a wall.    I've discussed this with them both at length, for YEARS.   For one of them, it's because he ends up getting in this, as he described it "infinite feedback loop in his head, about what his character should do."  He sits there, and contemplates it...and then contemplates that contemplation.  He thinks about every permutation of what he might say, and how that could impact the scene, and how others might react to it, and then considers those outcomes.  And by the time one of us snaps our fingers, it's been 10 minutes of him just sitting there in his own head.  He has basically zero ability to improvise, and just go with things.   We've tried working it out, but it's just a fact of his nature.  I've even reduced the amount of "narrative" aspect to my gaming, so the situations are more direct, and they can just insert themselves in the situation, and then roll their dice.  But when I do that, I lose motivation to keep running the game.    I'm the kind of player, that is hoping they will stand up, put a foot on their chair, lift up a pencil like a sword, and give some cheesy, but awesome speech, that I can then improv off of, and have a blast for all of us.  To me, roleplaying is sort of like improv theater, with some pieces of paper and dice for the occasional situation.  They should be referenced only sparingly, while we, at the table, just act off each other.  They...are not like that.    I've tried, and they've tried to, to encourage more narrative enthusiasm out of them, but it's very hard.  They will occasionally have little shining moments of it, but then the rest of the sessions will be a number crunching slog.

The other guy, doesn't have the "trapped in my own head" problem, he's just REALLY shy, and has a lot of performance anxiety.

I should point out, that neither of these guys, is ever comfortable running.  They don't like being the one in charge of managing stuff, so it always falls to me to run things.

Anyway, back to the other guy.  To give an example for him.  He tried to run a game of Aberrant about a year ago.  It's a super hero game, using the Storyteller system of White Wolf, from many moons ago.   We were doing the first game session.  The introduction to my character bit.  All that we were planning on doing that session, was having my guy actually manifest his powers.  That's it.  He knew what those powers would be, and had plenty of time to come up with some way to roleplay it out.

We sat down at the table, across from each other.  He looked up from his notes at me, to actually start narrating the scene, and I could literally see his face turn red.  Within seconds, he was flush, breathing hard, and started laughing uncontrollably, due to his obvious physical reaction, and the anxiety it created in him.   I didn't do anything to cause this, I simply sat across from him, ready to start playing.   He gave up, right then, just totally unable to bring himself out of his nervousness and run the game.  

So, that's what I'm working with.   

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Wow.

Okay, that's challenging. 


Hm. What about a game that has systems systems detailing emotional reactions, relationships,  and your morals? Do you think that might help guide that guy?

The Smallville RPG. Sadly out of print,  but maybe you can find a used copy somewhere to look at.

There are courses teaching improv acting.  Overcoming the initial reluctance would be a huge problem,  obviously,  but that sort of thing might help the guy in his private life,  too.

 

 

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Running an AoR campaign might be easier than the others as is a lot.of military campaigns... But I think the best solution is to take a break from live gaming with them and do a play by post game with them. 

 

I often don't know how to do a live character, unless I've had a fair amount of time to figure out motivation etc... And I know the people I'm gaming with... However I've fallen in love with pbp, because there is far less breaking from character. It also allows them to think about what they are going to do or say without being on the spot or holding things up.

Edited by TheShard

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1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

Wow.

Okay, that's challenging. 


Hm. What about a game that has systems systems detailing emotional reactions, relationships,  and your morals? Do you think that might help guide that guy?

The Smallville RPG. Sadly out of print,  but maybe you can find a used copy somewhere to look at.

There are courses teaching improv acting.  Overcoming the initial reluctance would be a huge problem,  obviously,  but that sort of thing might help the guy in his private life,  too.

 

 

Sadly emotional reactions are his big hang up.  And the guy is too much of a shut-in to want to do some improv classes simply for the purposes of roleplaying.   The one time he was able to get out of this funk, was when he played a character who was a drunken brawler.  And he was able to catch himself and say "My character wouldn't think this hard about this, he would just yell out an insult and punch the guy."  Which lead to some great sessions with that character.  Sadly, unless he's playing a character specifically designed to not think, he runs into this problem.   

But, that's my issue to deal with, and I'd rather not derail this morality thread any further about the issue.  We're aware of it, and do our best to deal with it.

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