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TallTonyB

Elves! Moar elves!

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I honestly don't see the issue with not being able to get literally every neutral upgrade from the expansions of a single faction. Nothing they have put out so far is so powerful the other armies can't compete without it. It isn't like Waiqar and Daqan will suddenly suck because they don't get that card. It adds variety to the game, and that is a good thing.

The caveat to this is that the neutral upgrades stay balanced enough that they don't invalidate a faction if it doesn't have it. If you have to have a neutral upgrade to compete and it is only available in one expansion box that will be a problem.

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My problem is I am cheap. I want one box of elves.  I was thinking for 200 point army to buy 2 boxes.  

Now I wonder if I buy one box and wait and see if they release a "command" set, another hero? I can't buy them all.  And in these expansions I see upgrades I'll want.  So I do have to pick and choose which to buy. 

One box plus leonx riders, plus archers for the upgrade.  And wait an see what else eventually comes out I guess.

Edited by Ywingscum

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5 hours ago, DaShamrockKid said:

I honestly don't see the issue with not being able to get literally every neutral upgrade from the expansions of a single faction. Nothing they have put out so far is so powerful the other armies can't compete without it. It isn't like Waiqar and Daqan will suddenly suck because they don't get that card. It adds variety to the game, and that is a good thing.

The caveat to this is that the neutral upgrades stay balanced enough that they don't invalidate a faction if it doesn't have it. If you have to have a neutral upgrade to compete and it is only available in one expansion box that will be a problem.

unfortunately FFG's track record does not follow this line of logic. 
In X-wing you NEED to buy Imperial ships to kit out your rebel ships with the best gear. 
I am hoping that the upgrades are somehow spread throughout the factions so this is not an issue...but the Column upgrade seems to show otherwise. 

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1 hour ago, Hidatom said:

unfortunately FFG's track record does not follow this line of logic. 
In X-wing you NEED to buy Imperial ships to kit out your rebel ships with the best gear. 
I am hoping that the upgrades are somehow spread throughout the factions so this is not an issue...but the Column upgrade seems to show otherwise. 

This isn't X-Wing. You won't need to buy out of faction. Why is that so hard to understand? How are you going to condem this when the only thing officially out is the core? Give it a rest. I get getting upset if they do screw you over, but constantly complaining about it when you don't even know yet is foolish and irritating, yet you basically post something like this every day..

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11 hours ago, Lyraeus said:

Anything that loses trays would like it. Want at least  Threat 3 but always 4 rerolls? Boom Reanimates, 

rank discipline would be better though as it would be threat 4 and 4 rerolls

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On 4/22/2017 at 11:23 AM, jek said:

rank discipline would be better though as it would be threat 4 and 4 rerolls

You don't get rerolls for the first rank. The upgrade rank discipline is still better though. As it would be 4threat 3 rerolls vs. 3 threat 3 rerolls with the other upgrade.

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On 4/22/2017 at 0:35 AM, Lyraeus said:

Anything that loses trays would like it. Want at least  Threat 3 but always 4 rerolls? Boom Reanimates, 

You need to value rerolls higher than threat for that to be true. Even if you do like rerolls better you could do like other people have mentioned and take rank discipline. The keeps your threat up while still giving you better rerolls.

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On 4/22/2017 at 8:43 AM, Hidatom said:

unfortunately FFG's track record does not follow this line of logic. 
In X-wing you NEED to buy Imperial ships to kit out your rebel ships with the best gear. 
I am hoping that the upgrades are somehow spread throughout the factions so this is not an issue...but the Column upgrade seems to show otherwise. 

This is an accurate description of FFGs business model and there is no reason to believe, that just because they made a new game, they are going to change their tried and true business model. With that said, units out of the box are functional even if they are not optimized. While there is nothing to force anyone to buy out of faction just for a card, many players who get really into FFGs games will do exactly that.

This is something anyone should be made aware of before getting into any FFG game. You think you'll only spend X amount of money and quickly find yourself knee deep in plastic crack. Some people really enjoy this, others expecting it to only cost X amount do get a little bit annoyed by it no matter how happy they are with all the unexpected products they bought.

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This is some of the worst Chicken Little chicanery I've seen in this particular forum since the game was first announced.

You see one, single, solitary card (Not even a particularly good one) previewed for a future wave, for a future army, with zero information on the accompanying Waiqar and Daqan expacs in the wave, and suddenly you just know that it won't be in any other packs? What is your preferred methodology here? Every time the game is updated FFG mails you a personalized package with four copies of the new upgrades?

Anyone who could be pushed off the fence by this level of self-fulfilling paranoia was never seriously interested in the game in the first place.

Call me when I can buy more copies of Rank Discipline. I'll be busy rolling dice and scooting trays.

Edited by Tvayumat

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37 minutes ago, Mep said:

there is no reason to believe, that just because they made a new game, they are going to change their tried and true business model

Except for that interview where the devs explicitly stated that they wouldn't make you buy other factions stuff to get all the upgrades.

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Till now I've only seen as evidence one interview 6 to 8 months ago where a dev says there will be no need to collect other factions than yours to get copy of all generic cards, point to this argument. On the previews we have seen till now some generic cards that are going to be included in core game and in some expacs, also this looks like a point to the previous argument.

We have not seen (I'm not sure 100%) any card shared between 2 expacs from different factions in the previews, so point to the oposite argument. Historical background from FFG points also to this argument (Armada and X-Wing).

Anyway only core has been released, so let's wait to see what happen when the first expansions will be released.

Am I confortable at this point about this topic? no, I'm not. Till now I've seen no irrefutably evidence (any word written on FFG page or forums by a FFG dev) of this as the way to go in this game. So I'm going to be careful and not been emphatic about one argument or the other.

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BTW Imperial Assault also works this way. With Destiny you need to buy two of each starter deck to get a play set. Even with something like Descent you are buying figures separate from the base game and expansions to complete the whole set.

Look, it is the business model. It works for them. If you like FFGs products, well their model is part of their products. Either you embrace it or you don't, putting aside interviews from people who actually don't make that call. It's not the end of the world if you end buying more than one core set or end up collecting more than one faction or just foregoing one or two cards.

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I remember dropping £35 on upgrade cards to be able to play my 5 Awing Crackshot list. It felt wrong and dirty, but hey, I wanted to play it at a big X-Wing tournament.

Proxies are the way forward, for sure. Print some nice colour copies, sleeve them, and you'll hardly be able to tell the difference.

Then, if you get into the game, love it, need it, like a drug addiction, then sure, worry abut cards for tournaments. Until that point there is absolutely no difference between the Rank Discipline you got in your Oathsworn box and the ten you printed for 40p.

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3 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

This is some of the worst Chicken Little chicanery I've seen in this particular forum since the game was first announced.

You see one, single, solitary card (Not even a particularly good one) previewed for a future wave, for a future army, with zero information on the accompanying Waiqar and Daqan expacs in the wave, and suddenly you just know that it won't be in any other packs? What is your preferred methodology here? Every time the game is updated FFG mails you a personalized package with four copies of the new upgrades?

Anyone who could be pushed off the fence by this level of self-fulfilling paranoia was never seriously interested in the game in the first place.

Call me when I can buy more copies of Rank Discipline. I'll be busy rolling dice and scooting trays.

Very well said Tvayumat!!! Totally agree

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6 hours ago, Hijodecain said:

Till now I've only seen as evidence one interview 6 to 8 months ago where a dev says there will be no need to collect other factions than yours to get copy of all generic cards, point to this argument. On the previews we have seen till now some generic cards that are going to be included in core game and in some expacs, also this looks like a point to the previous argument.

We have not seen (I'm not sure 100%) any card shared between 2 expacs from different factions in the previews, so point to the oposite argument. Historical background from FFG points also to this argument (Armada and X-Wing).

Anyway only core has been released, so let's wait to see what happen when the first expansions will be released.

Am I confortable at this point about this topic? no, I'm not. Till now I've seen no irrefutably evidence (any word written on FFG page or forums by a FFG dev) of this as the way to go in this game. So I'm going to be careful and not been emphatic about one argument or the other.

There's a big difference between "All generic cards will be available without having to buy outside of a single faction" and  "All generic cards will be available without having to buy outside of a single faction from the moment the card is released". I'm operating under the assumption that FFG meant the former. Anyone that is expecting the latter should just go ahead and process their disappointment now. Having all cards available across all factions when they are first released seems highly unlikely based FFG's typical product release schedule. 

Edited by WWHSD

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9 hours ago, Mep said:

 putting aside interviews from people who actually don't make that call. 

He may not make that call, but I assure you he works very closely with the people that do make that call. You may not know who Frank is, and that's fine, but for those of us that do I assure you when he says you won't have to buy out of faction, it means you won't have to buy out of faction. Having doubts about that is fine, but coming on here and trying to scare people off of this game with information you have no idea about is very frustrating. Especially when this game needs all the good word of mouth it can get since it doesn't have an IP that automatically sells itself like StarWars.

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I have been one of the biggest supporters of what we thought we heard "You won't need to buy out of faction cards to get all the cards" ...unfortunately we are seeing that may not be the case.  I am under the impression that the "elf" wave will only be elves...hopefully I am wrong and the core set factions get something that includes the generic upgrades usable by them.

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2 minutes ago, Hidatom said:

 ...unfortunately we are seeing that may not be the case. 

No, we are not seeing that. That's my entire point. You have no idea what's coming down the pipe. You have no idea of the release schedule. You have no idea what the contents of the expansions will be. Yet you insist on being fearful and spreading that fear. Stop.

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FFG has many tools in their tool box when it comes to driving sales. The most complained about one is power creep but they always have the single copy of a card you want multiples of, they do get people to buy cross faction, or get standard play players to buy into epic for standard play cards and ships or introduce an exciting new game mechanic in the new expansion you really want to play with even if it isn't in the faction you commonly play with. Other times they just make stuff so **** pretty you just can't help yourself.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing. It gets people excited about the game and keeps the game going. They need return customers, and have them return often, to keep the game financially viable. These are niche games after all, not some Hasbro power house game. No one is trying to scare anyone off here, we are just clarifying how FFG operates since some people seem to be confused. If this does scare anyone off, then why are you even on FFG's forums?

This game will do well because it is a good game. Even buying into a single faction, over time, will be pricey. It's the nature of these games and cost shouldn't be your main consideration when buying into one of FFG's games.

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Saying you lied to me because you said I wouldn't have to buy outside of faction and just spoiled a card that is meh for any released models besides the one that it was spoiled with is an argument that confuses me... because it is dumb...if I have to wait for a neutral card like column tactics that is BARELY applicable to anything I currently have, until I get some unit that can actually be awesome using it, or play dramatically different using it, then I will wait for that card...that doesn't translate to "well you will have to always buy everything or else fail" in my book... 

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