One Spearmen sculpt fits trays worse? (Update: Base system = Poor Design)

[eilif 135]

Update: I'm updating my opinions about this a few posts down.

I tested my spearmen in the movement trays last night.  I had already clipped out all the pegs from the trays and all the figs had one layer of spray paint including the edge of the base.  All the figures went in and out fairly easily except for the figures of one particular scupt.  All the figs that had the attached (not a separate piece) shield had bases that were too big to fit easily in the tray. 

Has anyone noticed in their set that the only figs that fit too tight are the spearmen with attached shields?

Edited April 25, 2017 by eilif

[Ranger421 36]

Its the same with one Oathsworn as well

 

[Vineheart01 6,403]

They might be warped ever so slightly, or the mold was slightly larger and went unnnoticed.

You should be able to fix that with an exacto and some patience though. Im in the process of moving so i havnt tried anything like this yet (planning to magnetize them)

[eilif 135]

Yeah, those were some things I was thinking of as possibly being the case.  

I'm just going to sand the edges.  I always keep a piece of sandpaper on a clipboard at my workspace and I should be able to sand and rotate it and shring the diameter relatively uniformly.

[Deathseed 1,738]

Probably nothing a model knife and an emery board can't fix.

[eilif 135]

After assmbling, dipping and painting the bases and trays of my Daqan minis I've come to a realization and it's something of a disapointment.

The basing system for these figures is not well designed and/or executed.  

And, it's not just one of the 4 Daqan sculpts al 8 (from 2 core sets) of which already I sanded down to fit better.. I've now got some horsemen that I have to press into their bases and some other spearmen that fit well initially and now also have to be pressed, and Kari is a really tight fit that will definitely require widening the decorative base cavity. This even after carefully scraping the inside of every tray indent to make sure that there was no paint left behind.

Here's the issues I see.

1-Near as I can tell, even on the figs that initially sat well in the trays there is less than a half a millimeter of differnce in size between the diameter of the spearmen and the movement tray cavities. That's just not enough for painted minis. More on this below.

2-It seems that the system is deliberately designed to use friction to hold the figures in place.  If this is true it is a bad idea. Anytime you have a painted surface being pushed into or out of contact with anything you are going to get damage to that paint.  If this were a boardgame with unpainted minis (presumably they'd be colored) it wouldn't be an issue, but it is just not suited for play with painted miniatures.

3- The recomended Army Painter system exacerbates this problem.  The Army Painter dip method (which I use a variation of myself) puts at 4 layers on the edges of the base.  Basecoat spray, Dip, base edge painting, matte varnish.  That's easily going to fill whatever leeway some of the minis may have had to begin with.  You can ameliorate some of this by masking off the base edge of every single mini, but that's a hassle that alot of folks just don't want to mess with. Further, a layer of edge painting and a matte varnish might still produce edges that rub against the movement tray cavities.

Solution?

While it's probably too late to change the molds for the initial figures and upcoming release, and the tooling for the plastic trays are probably too expensive to modify, FFG could make the bases for future minis one milimeter (or at least a half a millimeter) smaller in diameter. That would probably give the leway necessary for painting and easy figure placement and removal.

My approach

 I really like this game so far, and thus I've just consigned myself to the knowledge that the edges of my bases are going to get scratched and damaged. On the one hand it's quite disapointing, since I was planning on using the minis in other games too and now will be less likely to do so.  On the other hand, minis in Runewars are not used outside their trays, so it won't affect the visuals of Runewars gameplay much.  It just feels like an oportunity was missed here and it didn't have to be that way. 

Edited April 25, 2017 by eilif

[KrisWall 966]

I just magnetized the trays and models using the magnets from the magets thread.  Worked like a champ.  The trays are now a complete non issue, painted or otherwise.

[eilif 135]

19 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

I just magnetized the trays and models using the magnets from the magets thread.  Worked like a champ.  The trays are now a complete non issue, painted or otherwise.

I saw that method.  Looks like a nice easy option and magnetizing certainly does make for easy and fairly secure transport.

However, I'm not a fan of the bases sticking up over the height of the tray. Unless you put a cutout layer of at least 2mm over the entire tray, all the figures are going to appear to be standing on pitcher's mounds.

Edited April 25, 2017 by eilif

[KrisWall 966]

True.  Doesn't bother me.  Might bother others.

[CMtheGM 15]

1 hour ago, eilif said:

I saw that method.  Looks like a nice easy option and magnetizing certainly does make for easy and fairly secure transport.

However, I'm not a fan of the bases sticking up over the height of the tray. Unless you put a cutout layer of at least 2mm over the entire tray, all the figures are going to appear to be standing on pitcher's mounds.

Drill the magnet in so its flush. Easy.

A bit of time and work though.

[eilif 135]

10 minutes ago, CMtheGM said:

Drill the magnet in so its flush. Easy.

A bit of time and work though.

Is there enough material in the bottom of the tray to put a magnet flush? Would be a good solution for the base sticking up.

Still, I think we're getting a bit off-topic, my issue is not really related to magnetization.  Magnetization doesn't address the issue of too tight a fit between the figs' bases and the trays' cavities and the resulting scratched paint.

Edited April 25, 2017 by eilif

[CMtheGM 15]

Its tight. Agreed. I won't be painting the edges of the bases.

[Tvayumat 3,637]

4 hours ago, eilif said:

I saw that method.  Looks like a nice easy option and magnetizing certainly does make for easy and fairly secure transport.

However, I'm not a fan of the bases sticking up over the height of the tray. Unless you put a cutout layer of at least 2mm over the entire tray, all the figures are going to appear to be standing on pitcher's mounds.

Check my thread.

I magnetized mine with paperclip studs. They sit flush.

[eilif 135]

2 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

Check my thread.

I magnetized mine with paperclip studs. They sit flush.

Very nice idea!  Have you decided whether to paint the base edges?

[Tvayumat 3,637]

31 minutes ago, eilif said:

Very nice idea!  Have you decided whether to paint the base edges?

I mostly leave them untouched. Any paint that winds up there will probably wear off, and they're basically never seen, so... meh.

[JasonGlass 167]

I use a wooden sculpting tool to scrape paint off the sides of my bases and trays. Keeps them looking neat and prevents scuffing problems. It also helped me not create threads with sensationalist titles like this one.

[eilif 135]

2 hours ago, JasonGlass said:

I use a wooden sculpting tool to scrape paint off the sides of my bases and trays. Keeps them looking neat and prevents scuffing problems. It also helped me not create threads with sensationalist titles like this one.

Nothing hyperbolic or sensationalist about the title my friend.  Just a simple observation stated clearly.

A miniature wargame tray and bases that fit so tight that you can't paint the miniature base edges for fear of scuffing is the very definition of "Poor design".   

This is even clerer when all pictures of the separate painted miniatures and the endorsed painting method show painted and varnished base edges. 

EDIT: Just to clarify, this isn't going to drive me away from the game or make me like the sculpts themselves less.  I've got a game scheduled for tomorrow and my 2 boxes of Daqan are nearly finished painting. However, failing to state when a product has missed the mark doesn't do the company, the game or the community any favors.

Edited April 27, 2017 by eilif

[Torpid Rebel 48]

I really like the trays for in-game purposes, but I will admit that when it comes to the hobby... FFG missed the mark. But only by a tiny bit! So far, I've cut all of the pegs out of my trays, and now they're all great and I have no problems with them, no fitting issues either. I'm going to magnetise everything so that the trays can be used for transportation, but honestly, the pegs are the real problem!

[Darthain 1,747]

It is a bit unrealistic to expect a game which involves removing and slotting units into trays to not get scuffed. Seems a lot more like an expectation issue. 

Edited April 27, 2017 by Darthain

[eilif 135]

4 hours ago, Darthain said:

It is a bit unrealistic to expect a game which involvew removing and slotting units into trays to not get scuffed. Seems a lot more like an expectation issue. 

Totally disagree.   Games/Gamers have been using movement trays for all manner of base sizes and configuations for many years now.  The trays cavities are simply designed a bit larger.  Contact still happens, but it's not the kind of tight paint-damaging-fit you see here. 

I've been giving this more thought and wonder if the intent by FFG is to have the movement tray serve as a sort of protective and storage solution for the minis themselves. Here's my thoughts:

-Though it's quite tough on the base edges, if the mini is held immobile it is less likely to contact other minis and get damaged in transport. This assumes of course that folks are brining their minis to the FLGS in just a box or tray which is not the wisest thing, but it does make sense in it's own odd way.  

-It also of course makes gaming setup much faster if your figs essentially "live" in their movement trays.  You just grab the trays out of the box, set them on the table and get playing. 

I still think it's a poor design probably steming from FFG's roots in boardgaming rather than wargaming, but if true it would at least explain a bit of the "why".  

As a partial solution I widened most of the slots in my trays with a hobby knife and most of the figs fit without pushing now.  I'm considering going back with a dremel sharpening bit like this one and making them a bit bigger still.  

I really like these figs and want to use them in more games than just Runewars and I don't want to put up with scratched bases, so this may be a good solution going forward  I'm also going to make some foam storage trays and figure some sort of potective case for my Daqan also so they'll be well protected for transport and storage.

 

Edited April 27, 2017 by eilif