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Do some people seem overly whiny/negative about this game?

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1 minute ago, TechnoGolem said:

Just curious what made you feel this way. Did you not like the old mechanics or the story? Are you excited for a fresh start or is it something else?

From a game perspective: The L5R CCG had many iterations. I probably liked Samurai Edition the most. From a game design perspective everything was rather cluttered.  Streamlining was necessary at some time point so Ivory Edition came along. Unfortunately Ivory Edition was the worst iteration of the game in my book. The LCG looks like the streamlining that should have happened in Ivory...  (Well, much much more, but that comes with being a new game, but I am still surprised how many of the same notes they hit.)

From a story perspective: Second day of Thunder was one of the best arcs in L5R history. (There are other great arcs like 4 winds for example, but it is one of the best.) Obsidian Edition was received with mixed feedback. The destruction of the Mantis, the rise of the Spider, the return of the Naga. Things were uncertain... To jump back to an earlier better received arc sounds like a good idea. The formation of the Mantis Clan has not happened yet which leaves it place to be a new faction in the future. And the gender swap stuff leaves place for for not a straight retelling but new development. I am pretty used to this as an anime fan, and I generally regard this as a good thing.

So from a game and story perspective L5R was in a terrible state when the CCG ended.

So I was positively surprised by all the good decisions which went into this product which leaves me mildly optimistic and so far I did not encounter any game breaker.

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2 hours ago, kempy said:

Warhammer Conquest in it's 2 years long lifespan gathered nearly 100 thematic keywords that were confusing for someone who didn't get into WH lore earlier. 

Just to be picky, I think you may be getting Keywords mixed up with Traits here.

There are only approx. 6 keywords in Conquest, always denoted at the top of the main text in italics (e.g. Brutal, Flying, AoE), and they introduced only 1 or 2 new ones later on in the game's life (Deepstrike).

By contrast there were as you say many Traits, always denoted in normal font below the picture on the card. You didn't have to worry too much about these because they were passive (rather than active like Keywords) and never did anything by themselves. Certain card abilities did trigger off particular Traits (mainly Soldier, Warrior, Raider, Location), but many of them remained forever dormant (creature, behemoth, Imperial Fist, Blue....).

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2 hours ago, Yandia said:

From a game perspective: The L5R CCG had many iterations. I probably liked Samurai Edition the most. From a game design perspective everything was rather cluttered.  Streamlining was necessary at some time point so Ivory Edition came along. Unfortunately Ivory Edition was the worst iteration of the game in my book. The LCG looks like the streamlining that should have happened in Ivory...  (Well, much much more, but that comes with being a new game, but I am still surprised how many of the same notes they hit.)

From a story perspective: Second day of Thunder was one of the best arcs in L5R history. (There are other great arcs like 4 winds for example, but it is one of the best.) Obsidian Edition was received with mixed feedback. The destruction of the Mantis, the rise of the Spider, the return of the Naga. Things were uncertain... To jump back to an earlier better received arc sounds like a good idea. The formation of the Mantis Clan has not happened yet which leaves it place to be a new faction in the future. And the gender swap stuff leaves place for for not a straight retelling but new development. I am pretty used to this as an anime fan, and I generally regard this as a good thing.

So from a game and story perspective L5R was in a terrible state when the CCG ended.

So I was positively surprised by all the good decisions which went into this product which leaves me mildly optimistic and so far I did not encounter any game breaker.

Yeah, as a Mantis player, I have to say that there's a huge difference between, "The game has been reset to before your clan exists.  It may or may not be created in the same way!  This is a simply a necessary consequence of resetting the story to this time period," and, "Your clan has been destroyed.  It has failed.  Your people have been broken and scattered, not as a necessary part of the story, but because we needed to get rid of a clan to make room for the Mary Sues that are going to be the real heroes of the arc!"

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10 minutes ago, Wintersong said:

The Mantis do exist now as minor clan unless FFG says otherwise. And they better stay away from the Fox Clan.<_<

Yeah, I guess I was just thinking as a Great Clan.  Though, if we're talking minor clans, I'm more concerned with the Wasp than the Mantis!

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44 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Yeah, as a Mantis player, I have to say that there's a huge difference between, "The game has been reset to before your clan exists.  It may or may not be created in the same way!  This is a simply a necessary consequence of resetting the story to this time period," and, "Your clan has been destroyed.  It has failed.  Your people have been broken and scattered, not as a necessary part of the story, but because we needed to get rid of a clan to make room for the Mary Sues that are going to be the real heroes of the arc!"

Whatever you say result is same: no Clan cards to play. 

As a no Mantis player i have to say, don't care. Especially if, from player perspective, this incoming Naga stuff was 100% much funnier than all Mantis game concept since i remember. This Clan wasn't hub of the universe and I say more, all this free gold crap broke two arcs in the row and made Mantis one of the most hated clans around. Still remember that during our Kotei, a story pick was about saving or destroying some Mantis village, literally all in the place (50+ people) screamed BURN IT!

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It seems after two years there is still alot of Mantis clan hate, just as there is still alot of Spider clan hate...

I will always remain loyal to the Mantis clan, and I agree with @JJ48 in regards to the difference. In this reset we are still alive, we still have our ancestral homes, and we have a chance to ascend again either as we did before or as something new.

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5 minutes ago, kempy said:

Whatever you say result is same: no Clan cards to play. 

As a no Mantis player i have to say, don't care. Especially if, from player perspective, this incoming Naga stuff was 100% much funnier than all Mantis game concept since i remember. This Clan wasn't hub of the universe and I say more, all this free gold crap broke two arcs in the row and made Mantis one of the most hated clans around. Still remember that during our Kotei, a story pick was about saving or destroying some Mantis village, literally all in the place (50+ people) screamed BURN IT!

I'd just like to point out that people wanting to destroy a random village in response to some poor game design is far removed from wiping out an entire Great Clan because the story team couldn't think of any other way to demonstrate how awesome their villain is.

As for broken Strongholds, I only played Ivory and 20F, and I don't recall the Stronghold being particularly broken, especially if Mantis ended up going first.  If you're talking about earlier Strongholds, then please just realize that you're going to have a tough time convincing Mantis fans that their clan deserved to be destroyed because of game design that occurred several arcs ago.

Regarding the result being the same, I never claimed it wasn't.  I'm just trying to explain why I'm really excited about FFG's game, whereas I was dreading Onyx edition and only hoping to tolerate it long enough to get to the other side.  It has a lot less to do with gameplay and a lot more to do with story.

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Just now, JJ48 said:

As for broken Strongholds, I only played Ivory and 20F, and I don't recall the Stronghold being particularly broken, especially if Mantis ended up going first.  

No comment. EOT.

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4 hours ago, JJ48 said:

I'd just like to point out that people wanting to destroy a random village in response to some poor game design is far removed from wiping out an entire Great Clan because the story team couldn't think of any other way to demonstrate how awesome their villain is.

Let's not get our motives tangled here- Brand, not Story, basically decreed that there could be only nine starts due to how starters were being packaged. It was also decreed that Naga were returning. The fact that the original reason (packaging) got invalidated was lost in the endless shuffle of the Brand team over at  AEG, so Story was told to wipe out the Mantis due to a low number of Imperial Assembly susbscriptions or something.

So while your anger is justified... it wasn't the story team that said, "let's wipe out the Mantis to make the Threat Real." It was a Brand team that was almost entirely gone by the time their decisions bore fruit, and it had nothing to do with making threats look impressive. If it were, the extermination wouldn't have been required- the Crab and Scorpion got jobbed out to the Destroyer Horde, the Dragon and Phoenix got rolled over by the Army of Dark Fire (some of the losses in that conflict were so badly handled I still get peeved at it...)

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3 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Let's not get our motives tangled here- Brand, not Story, basically decreed that there could be only nine starts due to how starters were being packaged. It was also decreed that Naga were returning. 

 

Whether they decreed it or not it was a stupid decision.  If their strategy was midgame follower commander and shugenja pearl cards it was even dumber.  Midgame follower has been a bad to mediocre strategy from the dawn of time and they weren't going to manage to out shugenja deck the phoenix.

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Oh it was absolutely a dumb move*. But the motives behind it appear to have been misunderstood.

 

 

 

*EDIT-Especially the part where they throw away an existing playerbase to make a grab for one that they cut off at the legs years earlier.

Edited by Shiba Gunichi

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8 minutes ago, McDermott said:

Whether they decreed it or not it was a stupid decision.  If their strategy was midgame follower commander and shugenja pearl cards it was even dumber.  Midgame follower has been a bad to mediocre strategy from the dawn of time and they weren't going to manage to out shugenja deck the phoenix.

Yes really, especially with Stronghold that was able to copy abilities from discard piles twice per battle, and sensei that ignored bowing cost on followers,  Personalities that tutored Naga Followers, Personalities that create these followers, much better version of Peasant Vengeance, Forest that paid more for Followers and in environment without VtD. Yeah. that was totally bad decktype, lol.

Edited by kempy

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Just now, kempy said:

Yes really, especially with Stronghold that was able to copy abilities from discard piles twice per battle, and sensei that ignored bowing cost on followers,  Personalities that tutored Naga Followers, personalities that create these followers, much better version of Peasant Vengeance and in environment without VtD. Yeah. that was totally bad decktype, lol.

Loading a bad decktype up with overpowered cards doesn't make it a good decktype, it just makes it post ToE lotus.

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8 hours ago, Yoritomo Kazuto said:

It seems after two years there is still alot of Mantis clan hate, just as there is still alot of Spider clan hate...

I will always remain loyal to the Mantis clan, and I agree with @JJ48 in regards to the difference. In this reset we are still alive, we still have our ancestral homes, and we have a chance to ascend again either as we did before or as something new.

That's ok... My clan is the clan of Daigotsu. We knew there would be hate. we welcome it.

In universe : All those Lions commiting sepukku as protest to the Spider getting Great clan status... Brings a smile to my lips everytime. :D

Edited by Robin Graves

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I don't have the same connection to L5R that some do but I have that connection to other games and I think I can relate. Part of it is the community and the friends you make playing the game.  Some of it is the love of the game. Some of it is the love of the setting.  Mostly, I think it's feeling like you are a part of something. I remember back in the Golden Years of our AGOT meta in Minneapolis when we had 5 tournaments  running in a week, we had as many as 20 people coming to our weekly events on regular basis. Many of the regulars would hang out, go out for beer and pizza afterwords. We'd travel to other areas to play and meet up with other AGOT metas that we befriended on the forums.  We were a Brotherhood in many ways. Not just our meta but ALL AGOT players. 

I did play L5R around Diamond Edition but I was coming in as our local L5R meta was dying and soon I had nobody to play the game with. So, I never had the chance to build the same brotherhood with the L5R players as I did in AGOT.  However, from listening to the L5R players I could tell they once had that brotherhood in the L5R community, like the AGOT players had. 

So, in the end I think people look back at the great times and the game and everything they loved about the game and community and don't want anything the change. They want FFG to put something out that recreates everything from their "Golden Years". Now this is an impossibility. The game cannot be the same. The community cannot be the same.  However, I think that we can build a new brotherhood together that is as good as it ever was but certainly not the same.  Most of that is up to us, the players. FFG can put out a game but there's little they can do to to build a great community like games have had in the past and that's because it starts with the players.  We need to get out there and demo the game, get our friends into, call up those L5R players and get the game in front of them and make a real effort to make sure everyone that walks in to play feels like they're part of the group. 

 

 

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On 22/4/2017 at 10:34 AM, Sparks Duh said:

I find it fascinating that people like you had this idea of what the game should be like when FFG expressly said it was gonna be rebuilt from the ground up when they acquired the game. Obviously, you had your mind made up before any announcement because drawing the line of needing force, chi, use of gold is your reasoning to quit is pretty dumb, imo. 

The fact that you can't ever be gold screwed/flooded should be one of the best reasons to play the game. And you are dismissing it because you like getting gold screwed is pretty **** messed up. :P

Thank you so much for calling me dumb, I also find it fascinating how much bile there is online with people you don't know, just write politely their opinion and post in a civil matter. Your mother should be so proud!

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On 22/4/2017 at 10:11 AM, A_to_the_C said:

Interesting how much tastes can diverge.  I was sold on the new game as soon as they announced no more gold.  Getting rid of chance in terms of resource generation is a huge draw for me. 

I agree on the taste part.

I started playing from jade iirc, before gifts and favors etc, and there was a time that I got really frustrated with gold screw. I also only played Dragon, Clan loyalty to the death!

Eventually I realized it's just a game, and as in all games minimizing chance with solid tactics and experience is important, but it's just a game after all.

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On 20/04/2017 at 10:45 PM, VernonBroche said:

Hello, 

I have literally no experience with L5R or the Rokugan setting but I have been reading comments on the AMA and Youtube that would make you think FFG personally killed the children of some L5R fans. As an FFG fan I'm interested in exploring each new game they make, but having no history or prior knowledge of L5R beyond the fact that it was a fantastic eastern setting, I can't tell if the established playerbase from the old games are eagerly anticipating this game or not. What is your point of view of the general reception since the reveal article?

This is pretty simple... when FFG brought back Netrunner as Android: Netrunner, all the players/community of Classic Netrunner embraced A:NR in a second!

Without any hype-machine the A:NR GenCon release tournament was a huge success. Many of the old players came back to play the game they loved to play back in the days.

Now, what you see in this "L5R" is quite the opposite, and that's why you see this reaction, because me and a few fellows questioned FFG in that AMA and no answer was given, why FFG had to make so many changes to this game instead of following the path of success that A:NR with a straight and direct adaptation?!

The issues old L5R had were not gameplay related... free gold was an issue that was present in some editions, and military was the sense of the game post EE. And those issues could easilly be fixed by card design and not mechanic design.

So, to sum it up, this game has little in common with the original L5R, a different path taken from Android: Netrunner that is essentially the same game Netrunner was. Some folks are overhyped or overoptimistic because this license was in hiatus for almost two years... but once they get their hands in this game and see and feel the differences in it, they will tell you how this game is not the L5R game they loved to play. And probably some will turn back to old L5R CCG, others will play this and others will turn to AGOT2, the game where this new L5R came from.

For me, personally, I started playing this game with 17 years. My allowance could not made for me to support this game and I made a decision to keep MTG instead. 20 years passed, and I was hyped to know that I now could support and play L5R in a LCG model... but since I've read through all the changes I can really sorry to not support this game because this game has nothing to do with the game I played 20 years ago. And Android: Netrunner had so much... it's sad, FFG, just sad.

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9 minutes ago, oDESGOSTO said:

This is pretty simple... when FFG brought back Netrunner as Android: Netrunner, all the players/community of Classic Netrunner embraced A:NR in a second!

Without any hype-machine the A:NR GenCon release tournament was a huge success. Many of the old players came back to play the game they loved to play back in the days.

Now, what you see in this "L5R" is quite the opposite, and that's why you see this reaction, because me and a few fellows questioned FFG in that AMA and no answer was given, why FFG had to make so many changes to this game instead of following the path of success that A:NR with a straight and direct adaptation?!

The issues old L5R had were not gameplay related... free gold was an issue that was present in some editions, and military was the sense of the game post EE. And those issues could easilly be fixed by card design and not mechanic design.

So, to sum it up, this game has little in common with the original L5R, a different path taken from Android: Netrunner that is essentially the same game Netrunner was. Some folks are overhyped or overoptimistic because this license was in hiatus for almost two years... but once they get their hands in this game and see and feel the differences in it, they will tell you how this game is not the L5R game they loved to play. And probably some will turn back to old L5R CCG, others will play this and others will turn to AGOT2, the game where this new L5R came from.

For me, personally, I started playing this game with 17 years. My allowance could not made for me to support this game and I made a decision to keep MTG instead. 20 years passed, and I was hyped to know that I now could support and play L5R in a LCG model... but since I've read through all the changes I can really sorry to not support this game because this game has nothing to do with the game I played 20 years ago. And Android: Netrunner had so much... it's sad, FFG, just sad.

Not to say that you are 100% wrong, but NR and ANR aren't quite the same. Sure the basics are still there but I personally know old players who say this doesn't feel like Netrunner to them (because now lots of effects aren't run dependant anymore).

 

Really it comes down to what made the essence of old L5R (or NR or ...). And that changes depending the people you ask.

Edited by MrMenthe

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5 minutes ago, oDESGOSTO said:

This is pretty simple... when FFG brought back Netrunner as Android: Netrunner, all the players/community of Classic Netrunner embraced A:NR in a second!

Without any hype-machine the A:NR GenCon release tournament was a huge success. Many of the old players came back to play the game they loved to play back in the days.

Now, what you see in this "L5R" is quite the opposite, and that's why you see this reaction, because me and a few fellows questioned FFG in that AMA and no answer was given, why FFG had to make so many changes to this game instead of following the path of success that A:NR with a straight and direct adaptation?!

The issues old L5R had were not gameplay related... free gold was an issue that was present in some editions, and military was the sense of the game post EE. And those issues could easilly be fixed by card design and not mechanic design.

So, to sum it up, this game has little in common with the original L5R, a different path taken from Android: Netrunner that is essentially the same game Netrunner was. Some folks are overhyped or overoptimistic because this license was in hiatus for almost two years... but once they get their hands in this game and see and feel the differences in it, they will tell you how this game is not the L5R game they loved to play. And probably some will turn back to old L5R CCG, others will play this and others will turn to AGOT2, the game where this new L5R came from.

For me, personally, I started playing this game with 17 years. My allowance could not made for me to support this game and I made a decision to keep MTG instead. 20 years passed, and I was hyped to know that I now could support and play L5R in a LCG model... but since I've read through all the changes I can really sorry to not support this game because this game has nothing to do with the game I played 20 years ago. And Android: Netrunner had so much... it's sad, FFG, just sad.

This is an example of the problem L5R LCG will face that other LCGs didn't. The previous L5R CCG players are pretty split, half seem to embrace the changes and feel that the game still feels like L5R and the others feel like it's nothing like the CCG.

Personally, I think the later opinion is a pretty big overreaction. Yes, there are changes and noticeable ones but to say the LCG is a totally different game is being a bit dramatic, IMO. 

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2 minutes ago, MrMenthe said:

Not to say that you are 100% wrong, but NR and ANR aren't quite the same. Sure the basics are still there but I personally know old players who say this doesn't feel like Netrunner to them (because now lots of effects aren't run dependant anymore).

 

Really it comes down to what made the essence of old L5R (or NR or ...). And that changes depending the people you ask.

I played both NR and ANR plus L5R.  So far I would say L5R LCG is as close to L5R CCG as ANR is to NR. L5R LCG might actually end up being closer by time we have cards in hand. We will see.

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