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Do some people seem overly whiny/negative about this game?

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27 minutes ago, Robin Graves said:

 "God" with an extra letter. (used to piss of my atheist friend :D)

for another answer I'd say: "Anything can be conceived as good. or evil."

 

I'm an atheist and that's not wrong.

Have a good day came from have a Godly day. 

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13 hours ago, oDESGOSTO said:

Why is it bad?! Well, as I said in my review of 40K Conquest, I would like to play a distinct game and not a mix and matched of all-best-times-LCGs.
When Conquest came out it looked and felt like a compilation of LCG mechanics pasted into a theme. That, for me, is bad. It shows lack of design talent from game designers. It's the same as Eric Lang's game from the past 2 years, when the guy was being milked left and right and made similar games with minor nuances and different themes.

Or in other words, why will I play Star Trek Attack Wing when I can play X-Wing?! Only for a matter of theme? That's all.

So, you think it's "lack of design talent" that they re-used elements from past games, but you aren't happy because they didn't copy Old5R as much as possible...

Hmmm...

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8 hours ago, GooeyChewie said:

Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their women.

Well played! That answer probably wrote itself, I bet you didn't even have to touch the keyboard! :lol:

 

8 hours ago, Robin Graves said:

It's not fair that I can only like this post once. I should be able to give it at least two. One for the game design bit, and one for the Conan reference.

Utterly agree!

 

1 hour ago, slowreflex said:

So, you think it's "lack of design talent" that they re-used elements from past games, but you aren't happy because they didn't copy Old5R as much as possible...

Hmmm...

Ding-ding-ding, I think we have a winner!

I think people should probably just ignore Bitter-boy from now on. The discussion will probably be better with people that can legitimately talk about pros and cons that aren't just "buah, FFG didn't make the exact same sh*tty game again!" :rolleyes:

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4 minutes ago, Myrion said:

Calling it sh*tty is a bit too harsh, but otherwise agreed. 

It was a product of its time and it has its faults, but it was still a lot of fun a lot of the time.

People can talk trash when their favorite game lasts as long.

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17 hours ago, Danwarr said:

This is simply not true.

Traces were not the only thing reworked. Richard Garfield practically admits A:NR is a major improvement to his original game in a number of areas.

From a solid list I found.

  • Deck Building + Identities: In Android, identities and factions restrict which cards you can put in your deck, although you can play out-of-faction cards by spending influence. You can only have 3 of each card in your deck (though see below). You also get a buff from your identity, which range widely in effect.

  • Traces: Old Netrunner had a blind-auction for traces, with limits on how much each side can bid - Corp by trace limit, runner by links. Android has an open one-bid auction, with the Corp going first but getting free increases equal to the trace, and runner going second but getting free increases equal to their link. Most people agree that traces work much better in Android.

  • Bad Publicity: In the old game, this did nothing except if it reached 7, the Corp instantly died. In Android this is free bits to the runner on each run, with no instant-win condition.

  • Clearing virus tokens: In the original, the Corp just forgo their next 3 actions. So they could spread the actions across two turns, or clear virus tokens on the runner's turn (even multiple times if they want). In Android the Corp must spend 3 actions, making it harder to do.

  • Regions: In the original, regions had to be rezzed upon install. In Android, they still retain their 1-per-server limit, but can be installed unrezzed.

  • Agenda points: In the original, an Agenda scored by either side added points equal to it's score. In Android you keep the Agenda card itself. This makes no normal difference, but means that in Android you can't "spend 1 agenda point" for certain effects, you must forfeit a whole "agenda card".

  • Unique cards: Some cards (eg Kati Jones / Broker) can only be in play one at a time.

  • Mulligan: In Android, you can mulligan for free, if you want. Corp chooses first. In the original, if you had a bad starting hand, well, sucks to be you.

From this list I only take the Bad Pub (which was so insignificant in the C:NR that I didn't even remembered it) since it changed from a win-con into a resource generator.
Traces, I've mentioned it.
Deck Building and Identities -> thematic and aestethic, not mechanic
Purging Virus: polishing, not changing anything
Regions: polishing
Agenda points: polishing
Mulligan: polishing and updating to the now standards of card games (let me remind you that M:TG didn't had mulligan at the start, neither L5R, neither V:TES or any other game when they came out)
Unique cards: purely aestethic

Comparing it with L5R, I don't see, as an example, Purging virus tokens now requiring 6 bits instead of 3 clicks (that's a mechanical change, not a polishing/updating change) or a Runner to steal an Agenda would have to spend an extra click to steal it -> another mechanical change, not aestethic neither a straight update.

If you want to be reasonable, the game only suffered two major mechanical changes: Traces and Bad Pub.
The rest are just aestethic changes to adjust to a theme (the original game was bland regarding theme) and to the current times (since this game is a '96 product).

Now please count the mechanical changes in L5R LCG in just these two articles and then compare the number with A:NR and then we talk.
Or you can be in league with the rest of the flock, I honestly don't care.
 

@oDESGOSTO So at this point, what is your point?  As I see it, your opinion is since it is not CCG L5R, it won't be any good?  And, even though it is different, it is too similar to other games, so it can't be fun?


The point is simple, L5R has an identity as a game. And that identity is lost. It now looks more AGOT or FFG-best-LCGs-in-Rokugan than L5R CCG. Much different from what was made with Android: Netrunner. And I'm not a fan of these changes and the loss of identity of a game like L5R.
As it is, right now, L5R will only differ from AGOT thematically. Oh, and playing two decks... wait, does AGOT also uses a separate plot deck?!? Oh, and playing Provinces... that's it! Provinces and theme...
Those two games will cannibalize eachother, and in the end we'll see which one lasts.

 

 

So, you think it's "lack of design talent" that they re-used elements from past games, but you aren't happy because they didn't copy Old5R as much as possible...

Hmmm...


Once again, identity. If the box says L5R, I want it to be as close to L5R CCG as possible. Or they could renamed it to A Game of Five Rings and I couldn't cared less about it. But the IP is what will sell this game and not the game itself. As the same as the users from these boards, they're all stuck into the IP and not the game, so FFG could sell them a pile of junk in a box with Rokugani theme pasted on that they would just keep throwing money at FFG!
Keep going! That's exactly why FFG keeps doing reprints and second editions of games because their customer base got dumb and won't mind buying the same game over and over because theme. :)

 

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28 minutes ago, oDESGOSTO said:

The point is simple, L5R has an identity as a game. And that identity is lost. It now looks more AGOT or FFG-best-LCGs-in-Rokugan than L5R CCG. Much different from what was made with Android: Netrunner. And I'm not a fan of these changes and the loss of identity of a game like L5R.
As it is, right now, L5R will only differ from AGOT thematically. Oh, and playing two decks... wait, does AGOT also uses a separate plot deck?!? Oh, and playing Provinces... that's it! Provinces and theme...
Those two games will cannibalize eachother, and in the end we'll see which one lasts.

So what would you want L5R to be?

The rules of the CCG but in LCG form?

Because I'm happy to see a new game, even if it has similarities with AGoT. Heck, I actually played AGoT, and just recently dropped of it because I'm more enthusiastic about L5R than I've ever been.

Maybe you want another game than the new L5R. It's fine, really. Just go away and play something else. Because L5R will happen, no matter what you say. Will it cannibalize AGoT or other LCG. Probably, yes. Is it a bad thing? Probably no.

Money not spent on AGoT but spent on L5R is still money for FFG.

Will L5R bring more players than AGoT? Probably, yes. From other LCGs of FFG, but from other games as well.

 

 

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oDESGOSTOwhy are you even here? I don't even read your drivel to know it's just a massive butt hurt whinge post every time.

But don't mind me, I'm probably just a dumb FFG fan boy who has been dragged along by the hype train.

Choo wooo choo trains!! More coal in the troll boiler!!!

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1 minute ago, oDESGOSTO said:

Yup, I've realized that. It's really difficult to have and show a different opinion when you're up against a pack of rabbid fanboys who see nothing more than L5R no matter the sh!t FFG puts on your tray to eat.
Maybe because I'm European-based and not American and I have a more questionable mind on these things than the typicall yes-man mentality.
Tadaa.. have fun! ;)

There is a lot of people eu based. Including me.
There were few people among hundreads we know, that had your attidute towards changes. After careful study, most of people recongnize ups and downs and claims that there is a lot more ups.
Just a few, one or two we have contact with, have such a hatred attitude agains FFG and their sacred cow.
What is your sacred cow? Your vision of how L5R LCG should look like. Any differencies with that vision are very unwelcome.

What is more, you are being rude and offensive here.
As soon as you will let it go and accept that there will be no l5r (ccg alike) being released now, the better for you.
I tried couple of times to point out flaws in your thinking, being ofcourse ignored.

Manner up, keep it cool and stay open minded. In other case - restrain from writing such offensive posts.
I hope you will understand.

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10 minutes ago, oDESGOSTO said:

Yup, I've realized that. It's really difficult to have and show a different opinion when you're up against a pack of rabbid fanboys who see nothing more than L5R no matter the sh!t FFG puts on your tray to eat.
Maybe because I'm European-based and not American and I have a more questionable mind on these things than the typicall yes-man mentality.
Tadaa.. have fun! ;)

Enough is enough, Carlos. If you cannot behave like an adult and play nicely, you are not worth a nanosecond and even less a nanomilimiter of screen. Goodbye, sir.

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5 minutes ago, Smobey said:

At the risk of being obvious, he would've been gone after a day if people hadn't kept responding to him.

He may have reduced the number of posts, but not stopped posting. His kind follows the same patterns no matter what kind of forum/theme. *sigh*

Edited by Wintersong

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1 hour ago, oDESGOSTO said:

From this list I only take the Bad Pub (which was so insignificant in the C:NR that I didn't even remembered it) since it changed from a win-con into a resource generator.
Traces, I've mentioned it.
Deck Building and Identities -> thematic and aestethic, not mechanic
Purging Virus: polishing, not changing anything
Regions: polishing
Agenda points: polishing
Mulligan: polishing and updating to the now standards of card games (let me remind you that M:TG didn't had mulligan at the start, neither L5R, neither V:TES or any other game when they came out)
Unique cards: purely aestethic

Comparing it with L5R, I don't see, as an example, Purging virus tokens now requiring 6 bits instead of 3 clicks (that's a mechanical change, not a polishing/updating change) or a Runner to steal an Agenda would have to spend an extra click to steal it -> another mechanical change, not aestethic neither a straight update.

If you want to be reasonable, the game only suffered two major mechanical changes: Traces and Bad Pub.
The rest are just aestethic changes to adjust to a theme (the original game was bland regarding theme) and to the current times (since this game is a '96 product).

Now please count the mechanical changes in L5R LCG in just these two articles and then compare the number with A:NR and then we talk.
Or you can be in league with the rest of the flock, I honestly don't care.
 


The point is simple, L5R has an identity as a game. And that identity is lost. It now looks more AGOT or FFG-best-LCGs-in-Rokugan than L5R CCG. Much different from what was made with Android: Netrunner. And I'm not a fan of these changes and the loss of identity of a game like L5R.
As it is, right now, L5R will only differ from AGOT thematically. Oh, and playing two decks... wait, does AGOT also uses a separate plot deck?!? Oh, and playing Provinces... that's it! Provinces and theme...
Those two games will cannibalize eachother, and in the end we'll see which one lasts.

 

 


Once again, identity. If the box says L5R, I want it to be as close to L5R CCG as possible. Or they could renamed it to A Game of Five Rings and I couldn't cared less about it. But the IP is what will sell this game and not the game itself. As the same as the users from these boards, they're all stuck into the IP and not the game, so FFG could sell them a pile of junk in a box with Rokugani theme pasted on that they would just keep throwing money at FFG!
Keep going! That's exactly why FFG keeps doing reprints and second editions of games because their customer base got dumb and won't mind buying the same game over and over because theme. :)

 

For someone who "can't care less" you are typing a ton :) If you are not interested in the game, fine do not buy it, but you are no messiah. You do not have to tell people your opinion over and over again. You can't change people (the irony in this is intended ;) )

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1 hour ago, oDESGOSTO said:

Once again, identity. If the box says L5R, I want it to be as close to L5R CCG as possible. Or they could renamed it to A Game of Five Rings and I couldn't cared less about it. But the IP is what will sell this game and not the game itself. As the same as the users from these boards, they're all stuck into the IP and not the game, so FFG could sell them a pile of junk in a box with Rokugani theme pasted on that they would just keep throwing money at FFG!
Keep going! That's exactly why FFG keeps doing reprints and second editions of games because their customer base got dumb and won't mind buying the same game over and over because theme. :)

Yeah, it's always such a shame when people get completely hung-up on the IP of the game and refuse to judge it based on its gameplay and fun value.

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1 hour ago, oDESGOSTO said:

Once again, identity. If the box says L5R, I want it to be as close to L5R CCG as possible. Or they could renamed it to A Game of Five Rings and I couldn't cared less about it. But the IP is what will sell this game and not the game itself. As the same as the users from these boards, they're all stuck into the IP and not the game, so FFG could sell them a pile of junk in a box with Rokugani theme pasted on that they would just keep throwing money at FFG!
Keep going! That's exactly why FFG keeps doing reprints and second editions of games because their customer base got dumb and won't mind buying the same game over and over because theme. :)

This guy just commited seppuku. Clearly hating that L5R is not a copy of ccg, and then whining that "dumb" people will buy the same game over and over, this is GOLD 
:)

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Its an abomination! A Frankenstein!

 

Also it's funny how "he wants" something and then presents it all that as a fact.  No use in debating him, he would not change his mind even if some1 presented him with undeniable proof (like garfield netrunner link) he would do some logical gymnastic and rationalize it so it fits his opinion. I propose IGNORE. Worked for me.

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2 minutes ago, Arkhonai said:

This guy just commited seppuku. Clearly hating that L5R is not a copy of ccg, and then whining that "dumb" people will buy the same game over and over, this is GOLD 
:)

Hahahah brilliant. Someone call the fire brigade, I think Carlos self immolated. 

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1 hour ago, oDESGOSTO said:

Maybe because I'm European-based and not American and I have a more questionable mind on these things than the typicall yes-man mentality.
Tadaa.. have fun! ;)

A questionable mind?  *Inigo Montoya voice* I do not think that phrase means what you think it means.

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I realize to some extent I am feeding the troll.  I would also like to point out that yes, he agreed with my summary of his problems with the LCG.  My rebuttal is that AEG managed to run the CCG into the ground (in my mind, as well as most of my entire play group, who all quit, because it wasn't fun), and we all welcome the change with cautious optimism.  Old L5R has 20 years of history, but much of that history is drivel.  It maintained archaic and un-fun systems because they were "traditional", and they were too concerned with/afraid of the player base's opinion to implement needed change.  

I guess oDESGOSTO is embracing the traditional samurai of spurning change because it is change.  Now that guns are available, he is staunchly sticking with his sword as a the ultimate weapon, because it always has been that way.

 

@oDESGOSTO What exactly is your goal then, with your posts?  You are clearly in the minority in this forum.  If someone is going to be here, they have most likely already accepted that they will try the LCG, and are probably more optimistic than you are by far.  I doubt your posts will convince anyone they are making a mistake.  This is the wrong audience for you.  You can try somewhere else where people haven't already made up their minds to give this a shot.

Edited by Mirith

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1 hour ago, Mirith said:

I realize to some extent I am feeding the troll.  I would also like to point out that yes, he agreed with my summary of his problems with the LCG.  My rebuttal is that AEG managed to run the CCG into the ground (in my mind, as well as most of my entire play group, who all quit, because it wasn't fun), and we all welcome the change with cautious optimism.  Old L5R has 20 years of history, but much of that history is drivel.  It maintained archaic and un-fun systems because they were "traditional", and they were too concerned with/afraid of the player base's opinion to implement needed change.  

I guess oDESGOSTO is embracing the traditional samurai of spurning change because it is change.  Now that guns are available, he is staunchly sticking with his sword as a the ultimate weapon, because it always has been that way.

 

@oDESGOSTO What exactly is your goal then, with your posts?  You are clearly in the minority in this forum.  If someone is going to be here, they have most likely already accepted that they will try the LCG, and are probably more optimistic than you are by far.  I doubt your posts will convince anyone they are making a mistake.  This is the wrong audience for you.  You can try somewhere else where people haven't already made up their minds to give this a shot.

I don't even mind the negativity about the game from a personal standpoint.  What I take exception to is his trying to establish global implications of his feelings, and making unwarranted leaps in logic to try to paint anyone who disagrees with him in a bad light.  If he actually wishes to talk about what he doesn't like about what's been revealed so far, let him do so and we can discuss it from there.  But when pretty much every single post amounts to the same argument of, "This game isn't the same as the CCG was, therefore we know for a fact that it will fail, and anyone who thinks otherwise must be a blind, self-delusional fanboy, because it is utterly impossible for anyone to rationally look at the new mechanics and think that they may be any fun whatsoever.  I will now prove my point by showing how these mechanics are shared by other games that many people find fun," it just gets a bit wearisome.

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