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VernonBroche

Do some people seem overly whiny/negative about this game?

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Hello, 

I have literally no experience with L5R or the Rokugan setting but I have been reading comments on the AMA and Youtube that would make you think FFG personally killed the children of some L5R fans. As an FFG fan I'm interested in exploring each new game they make, but having no history or prior knowledge of L5R beyond the fact that it was a fantastic eastern setting, I can't tell if the established playerbase from the old games are eagerly anticipating this game or not. What is your point of view of the general reception since the reveal article?

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I've seen people upset because it's too different from the original.  And I've seen people say they're not interested because it looks like a virtual clone of the original.

The game is being judged based on preconceived notions of what people wanted it to be, not what it actually is.

Plus we really haven't seen enough of the rules and cards to make a full evaluation yet.

Edited by DailyRich

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5 minutes ago, VernonBroche said:

Hello, 

I have literally no experience with L5R or the Rokugan setting but I have been reading comments on the AMA and Youtube that would make you think FFG personally killed the children of some L5R fans. As an FFG fan I'm interested in exploring each new game they make, but having no history or prior knowledge of L5R beyond the fact that it was a fantastic eastern setting, I can't tell if the established playerbase from the old games are eagerly anticipating this game or not. What is your point of view of the general reception since the reveal article?

It's not much different than the reactions of die-hard Star Wars expanded universe canon thought with the announcement that Disney would be eliminating the expanded canon.  Some of those fans were outraged, some of those fans came to terms with it, and some new fans came into the series who might not have with that extensive web binding future creations.

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5 minutes ago, VernonBroche said:

Hello, 

I have literally no experience with L5R or the Rokugan setting but I have been reading comments on the AMA and Youtube that would make you think FFG personally killed the children of some L5R fans. As an FFG fan I'm interested in exploring each new game they make, but having no history or prior knowledge of L5R beyond the fact that it was a fantastic eastern setting, I can't tell if the established playerbase from the old games are eagerly anticipating this game or not. What is your point of view of the general reception since the reveal article?

That is only natural everytime something like this happens (movie reboots, new rpg editions, etc). Some people just want more of exactly the same they had or with just some minor alterations. That does not mean this version will be bad, just that it does not meet their desires.

I would not mind it playing like before but I do not mind at all the changes. In fact, I do see the changes as a quite good thing. Will need to learn more and even play it, but so far, so good.

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11 minutes ago, VernonBroche said:

Hello, 

I have literally no experience with L5R or the Rokugan setting but I have been reading comments on the AMA and Youtube that would make you think FFG personally killed the children of some L5R fans. As an FFG fan I'm interested in exploring each new game they make, but having no history or prior knowledge of L5R beyond the fact that it was a fantastic eastern setting, I can't tell if the established playerbase from the old games are eagerly anticipating this game or not. What is your point of view of the general reception since the reveal article?

For what it's worth, I originally declared that L5R was dead and whatever FFG made wouldn't be L5R to me.  After a bit of a process and level headed discussion, I've come full circle, and am now cautiously optimistic.  

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3 minutes ago, Kiseki said:

For what it's worth, I originally declared that L5R was dead and whatever FFG made wouldn't be L5R to me.  After a bit of a process and level headed discussion, I've come full circle, and am now cautiously optimistic.  

This is interesting. Can you explain why L5R is so important to you? I never knew people connected this deeply with it in the past, but I guess the setting expanded across a CCG, and PnP RPG and some other things?

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5 minutes ago, VernonBroche said:

This is interesting. Can you explain why L5R is so important to you? I never knew people connected this deeply with it in the past, but I guess the setting expanded across a CCG, and PnP RPG and some other things?

L5R is important to a lot of people.

Imagine feeling deeply connected to a clan, bringing that clan to tournament after tournament in the hope to influence its fate, alongside your fellow clansmen. Imagine doing it for years. It somehow grows on you and never truly leaves. ;)

Edited by MrMenthe

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Just now, VernonBroche said:

This is interesting. Can you explain why L5R is so important to you? I never knew people connected this deeply with it in the past, but I guess the setting expanded across a CCG, and PnP RPG and some other things?

Mostly just those two, the figurines game and board games were not very popular from what I recall.

However, the original CCG had some combination of some very player driven story, a community awareness and participation, as well as a fairly deep strategic game, that it ended up with people much more loyal to stuff than most would expect.  Most players are loyal to a clan or two, and while a few of the top players were more mercenary, sticking to the top performing decks, still many were not, and were willing to stick it out.  On top of that, it was all sort of sudden that L5R ended abruptly, and not everyones favorite factions have made it back (Mantis, Spider, Shadowlands, Naga, Ratlings, Monk, the list goes on).

That being said, there was the same amount of complaining whenever there was a rules change between editions of the game.  Don't forget, its people on the internet, so sometimes having a rational discussion isn't possible with everyone, and people are more willing to write negative things than positive.

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When people care deeply about something, the initial reaction to change - especially extreme change - is usually pretty negative. They'll come around (and find something else to complain about, I'm sure).

Hey, we love this game and this world. This is a natural byproduct of that.

The game itself seems really good, though. I hope you check it out!

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As far as why the game is special for so many people, check out these threads for some context:

 

It's been around so long that people have been able to form some real relationships with the source material and the tons of people who've played over the years. In short, it's kind of awesome.

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I remember when my RPG group wrote AEG (John Wick) about this upcoming CCG (think that we read about it in Shadis). He sent us tons of pre-imperial cards (the promos and regulars). We were hooked. We all made a gentlemen's agreement to purchase a deck and 2 boosters. We were going to play quick games before our Sunday D&D game, at a $1.00 buy in. Winner takes the pot. As soon as L5R hit the shelves, we all bought in. The following week we all confided that we had broken our agreement before the first game. 

I remember the early website and clicking on Clan Champion Art to Doom them (Kachiko would thank you for voting). It was actually how we saw a lot of the Champ Art (before we got the cards). 

I have 2 Lion Clan Mons tattoos on my calves. More L5R tattoos on my body. 

I'm sure many of us are just coming to term with change. It is hard. Many of the things that drove us to love the game are different. Change is hard for us old folks. :P

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13 minutes ago, VernonBroche said:

This is interesting. Can you explain why L5R is so important to you? I never knew people connected this deeply with it in the past, but I guess the setting expanded across a CCG, and PnP RPG and some other things?

For me, it was the first gaming community that I felt like I belonged to.  I played for nearly 10 years.  I played with friends in the Army, many of whom I have had only infrequent contact with since.  I actually had something I did in a LARP session at Gencon become a major plot point in the storyline, and it was cool being known for that.  I just have a lot of great memories, many rose-tinted I'm sure, attached to playing this game, and with memories comes and emotional attachment.  

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L5R, the old version, has developed such strong feelings for multiple reasons likely.

1) Player involvement in the Story: Many of the things that occurred in the story occurred because of player choice, the world and its many oddities was largely effected and shaped by the players. The new version erases all of those decisions, good and bad, and basically resets the timeline with a few changes. To many this is very painful as they grew attached to the world they helped to shape and create.

2) Clan loyalty: The CCG developed a strong loyalty to ones clan, as it was through there clan that they shaped the world. You would make friends with other members of the clan, interact on forums, have this community. With the new version we lost two clans, The Spider Clan, and my clan The Mantis. So to some members of the community this is a bit of a slight. Some people were so loyal to their clan they would get their clan mon tattooed on them, similar to how some star wars fans would tattoo rebel or imperial symbols.

3) "It has no all or nothing": This is the idea that your not building up your forces for a massive climactic battle (honestly the nest part of the old L5R) instead it appears to be faster smaller skirmishes without any real loss of forces or provinces.

4) The RPG: This really delved deep into the world of Rokugan and allowed for players to be a part of their favorite clan, fight in duels, save the Emerald Empire, and fight Oni. In the later years of the old L5R the Winter Court event began to actually effect the story of Rokugan as well.

5) Cosplay/LARP: This was mostly done at Gencon as far as I know, I sadly never had the opportunity to experience this myself but I'm sure this was another major point of unity amongst the fanbase.

 

Here's the most important thing though. The majority of L5R players are fine with the changes, some celebrating them. Hell even with the loss of my clan I still hope for its return in a future expansion pack. I'll play the game no matter what because I love the setting and I'm excited to be a part of the story. The people who are whining and complaining are experiencing the growing pains and are potentially going through the stages of grief as this is a property that they have been a part of for twenty years. Lets give them patience and time, but if they become nothing but venomous iritents we just need to remove them at that point. I hope instead the venom will work its way out of the system, for them and us.

All in all I guess I want to say welcome to Rokugan, welcome to a land where Honor is stronger than steel. Welcome to a community that will guide and help you throughout the whole of it, welcome to the drama that can rise up from clan loyalty, welcome to the family. Utz!

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I started playing during Jade and put the cards away around the time 20 Festivals came out.  I couldn't be happier that Fantasy Flight has taken over and I can't wait to play.  I'm excited about the changes and look forward to purchasing 3 copies of the core set.  I just wish I didn't have to wait so long.  All the whining is crazy and embarrassing.  Play it or don't - but no one has even played it yet!  My general attitude in life is that "It is what it is".

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11 minutes ago, nimuro said:

I remember when my RPG group wrote AEG (John Wick) about this upcoming CCG (think that we read about it in Shadis). He sent us tons of pre-imperial cards (the promos and regulars). We were hooked. We all made a gentlemen's agreement to purchase a deck and 2 boosters. We were going to play quick games before our Sunday D&D game, at a $1.00 buy in. Winner takes the pot. As soon as L5R hit the shelves, we all bought in. The following week we all confided that we had broken our agreement before the first game. 

I remember the early website and clicking on Clan Champion Art to Doom them (Kachiko would thank you for voting). It was actually how we saw a lot of the Champ Art (before we got the cards). 

I have 2 Lion Clan Mons tattoos on my calves. More L5R tattoos on my body. 

I'm sure many of us are just coming to term with change. It is hard. Many of the things that drove us to love the game are different. Change is hard for us old folks. :P

Change is hard for certain people.  I'm old and loved this game for 15 years and can't wait to play again!  

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35 minutes ago, VernonBroche said:

Hello, 

I have literally no experience with L5R or the Rokugan setting but I have been reading comments on the AMA and Youtube that would make you think FFG personally killed the children of some L5R fans. As an FFG fan I'm interested in exploring each new game they make, but having no history or prior knowledge of L5R beyond the fact that it was a fantastic eastern setting, I can't tell if the established playerbase from the old games are eagerly anticipating this game or not. What is your point of view of the general reception since the reveal article?

welcome to l5r fandom! its amazing/a flaming tire fire!

seriously, i love this game, and this community, but its got its dark side too. the people i've met and made friends with via the spider forum and (to a much lesser degree) the old alderac forum are great but theres absolutely an element of this community that responds to absolutely everything, EVERYTHING, with fury and propriety madness. or smug snark. both are exhausting to try and respond to. the posts above do a good job of explaining the origins. this game engenders an absolutely freakish degree of dedication, and some people manifest this in the best ways and some do so with less grace. 

my best advice is to power up your selective hearing, and ignore the cranky ones. this community has so much to offer. don't let the bad apples scare you off. WE'RE SUPER COOL WE PROMISE!

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I think here on the FFG forums, in particular people coming from other FFG Living Card game experience don't fully realize how big L5R actually is.  Its one of he highest grossing/selling LCG in existence ranking just below giants like Magic: The Gathering, Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh. In terms of card games, there is nothing in the existing lineup at FFG that even compares.  It might be a bit more realistic to consider how big of a deal it would be if FFG was making the next edition of Magic The Gathering or Pokemon.  

In short, Its a pretty big deal that FFG is making the next edition of L5R and a pretty big responsibility in terms of existing IP's.   They are taking on a pretty sizable fan base as well.  Its hard to estimate how sales translate to fan base size, but its fair to say after a decade of existing as a CCG, the fan base is likely fairly large.  

I can imagine some fans are going to be quite apprehensive, and while it might be little comfort to them, in particular if they aren't familiar FFG, but for what its worth, I think they are in about as good a-hands as one could be in.  FFG knows how to make great games, they know how to support them long term and if there is anyone that can successfully etch in a new era for the game it will be them.

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L5R is dead... Long live L5R!

I think we all knew FFG wasn't just gonna continue the game as it was. It's their game now, and they were bound to chnage things up. Some for the good, some for the worse.  But it's not like the game hasn't gone trough changes before. Factions have come, factions have gone. The card back even changed (stupid Olympic games commity.) This is the biggest change yet, but like the Crab, the game will endure. Now I've only been playing since very recently (Emperor edition) so I don't have about 20 years of attachment, but I do feel positive towards this new version. There's stuff I like (combat/political stats) and stuff I don't like (fate instead of koku) but I will definatly give this a go!

 

I only hope we don't have to wait years untill they bring back the Spider Clan...

 

Afbeeldingsresultaat voor spider clan mon

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17 minutes ago, Mirith said:

and not everyones favorite factions have made it back (Mantis, Spider, Shadowlands, Naga, Ratlings, Monk, the list goes on).

Is not that a bit unfair to FFG? Should be really expect a regular Core,  price and all, with cards for all factions that ever existed in AEG's version? I would miss factions like Mantis or Shadowlands, but no ones like Naga (and all the wasted time waiting for the Naga player to count all the frakkiing force bonuses) or Spider. In any case, it is too soon to assume that faction X or Y will not make it back into the game. At some point. It sucks to have to wait, though.

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I am also in the group of people who played the ccg from 1998 until it was sold to FFG, and I can say that I am excited about where this game is going.  Am I going to miss the old game? Of course, it was my favorite ccg of all time, hands down.  But while I have fond memories of the game, as do most of my friends, I do like the new direction they are taking it.  They are keeping intact the feel and the core of what made the original recognizable, but streamlining and fixing things that were somewhat cumbersome, time consuming, and not intuitive at first for new players.  

And while, my Spider clan will sadly not be present, and I can't play the faction I learned the game with years ago, The Shadowlands, Ill have to go to my third option and stick with the crab and my second favorite character of all time, Hida Kisada :)

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9 minutes ago, BigKahuna said:

I think here on the FFG forums, in particular people coming from other FFG Living Card game experience don't fully realize how big L5R actually is.  Its one of he highest grossing/selling LCG in existence ranking just below giants like Magic: The Gathering, Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh. In terms of card games, there is nothing in the existing lineup at FFG that even compares.  It might be a bit more realistic to consider how big of a deal it would be if FFG was making the next edition of Magic The Gathering or Pokemon.  

In short, Its a pretty big deal that FFG is making the next edition of L5R and a pretty big responsibility in terms of existing IP's.   They are taking on a pretty sizable fan base as well.  Its hard to estimate how sales translate to fan base size, but its fair to say after a decade of existing as a CCG, the fan base is likely fairly large.  

I can imagine some fans are going to be quite apprehensive, and while it might be little comfort to them, in particular if they aren't familiar FFG, but for what its worth, I think they are in about as good a-hands as one could be in.  FFG knows how to make great games, they know how to support them long term and if there is anyone that can successfully etch in a new era for the game it will be them.

I would go through periods where I wouldn't play, but I almost reflexively bought a starter deck any time a new edition came out.  My wife and I liked to play the stripped down sealed decks.  So even when I wasn't an active player, I was giving them some money.  I hope we get a lot of other return players (and a host of new ones!).

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I think one of the things about L5R that engendered so much involvement on the part of players was how the games actually played out.  I don't think I've ever played another card game where I could feel the effects of my tactical/strategic decisions so acutely.  To me it really felt like an environment where skill in playing the deck, and forward thinking made more of a difference that just 'who had the better/rarer cards'.  And I think that, combined with the sense of ownership players would get from seeing story line prizes for their clans pop up in fictions, was easy latch onto.  Add to that the expansive history of fictions, multiple win conditions, and friendly fanbase among other things and it's kind of hard not to get invested!

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Some of the anguish comes from fans of factions (not just those that aren't in the FFG launch like the Spider or Mantis) that have, for a number of years, been nudging their factions in certain directions, making new alliances and developing new bits of cool lore- and none of that matters now. Yes, it's grognard stuff, but people forget that the first "grognards" were the friggin' old guard in Napoleon's army- the grumbling is born of having put time in- and some of them/us just have trouble with expression- for example, I would call myself "cautiously optimistic." But if everyone around me is clapping their hands with glee, the caution is going to be noted more than the optimism. I had a setting and a timeline that I basically liked*, and now we're going back to an era that not only was I not really part of- I wasn't that fond of the story. For me, the Pre-Coup and Clan War era (which is, for the uninitiated, how we old sorts are going to refer to things until we get wheeled off into a home) was Not My L5R. It was that weird period that set up things that came later that I vastly preferred. I sincerely hope that FFG's changes aren't just some character replacements, name tag swaps, and role exchanges within the same narrative framework, and that they actually do something new.

And of course, some of it's just People On The Internet.

 

*With the caveat that there was some stupid, STUPID crap in the canon- but part of my caution is that FFG has defaulted back to the period that GAVE us no small amount of that stupid crap.

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