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L5r and banned cards. What happened to "Pillowfight"?

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It's important to distinguish characters who are sexy to appeal to the male gaze and characters who own their sexuality as a point of power that is central to the character.  It's also important to note that if female characters in the setting are written to appeal to the male gaze, women playing in the real world are more likely to experience negative play experiences in a variety of forms including, in extreme examples, threats to their safety.  The OP's comments may seem to come out of left field, but I assure you they are the culmination of years of work by L5R CCG players in making our community inclusive and fun.  Overt sexuality can, and likely should, be present in the story without teenage snickering about sexy pillow fights between two strong characters.    

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2 hours ago, Kinzen said:

. . . no, it really, really isn't. If you actually believe "dude showing off his muscles while looking powerful" is equivalent to "lady showing off her cleavage while looking like a pinup," then I suggest you go read more on the topic, because you don't really understand the conversation.

I can thank the fact that I have 2 older sisters I know this but what do you think you get if you google "Male pinup" at least with safe search on.

But my overall point was balance. Yes, scorpion clan has  women showing cleavage because (for lack of a better way of putting it) its part of the scorpion theme. But its not like all the women in the game are presented that way. We are talking about one out of seven factions. I can think of plenty of games that gives all women that treatment and I would be on the side that it was too much but here we seem to be focusing on one part of one clan who's art we haven't even seen yet all because someone on the internet made a joke.

 

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1 minute ago, Cold Iron1 said:

I can thank the fact that I have 2 older sisters I know this but what do you think you get if you google "Male pinup" at least with safe search on.

You get the male version of stuff whose female iteration shows up all the time in movies and TV and video games and comics and artwork and advertising and commercials. I don't have to google "female pinup" to see women objectified that way, because it's the background radiation of my life.

(Here's an example just from today. All three of those women are about to fall right out of their impractical clothing. But y'know, if you wanna sell a gaming book, it helps to have boobs on the cover.)

 

1 minute ago, Cold Iron1 said:

But my overall point was balance. Yes, scorpion clan has  women showing cleavage because (for lack of a better way of putting it) its part of the scorpion theme. But its not like all the women in the game are presented that way. We are talking about one out of seven factions. I can think of plenty of games that gives all women that treatment and I would be on the side that it was too much but here we seem to be focusing on one part of one clan who's art we haven't even seen yet all because someone on the internet made a joke.

We're discussing why that joke went over like a lead balloon; context is a huge part of the reason, and therefore can't be discarded. That includes the context of "but will they be sexy for my ogling convenience" being the most important question implied in the way female characters are received, the context of lesbianism often being treated as a performance for male enjoyment, the context of Kachiko's sexuality being pretty much the first characteristic that leaps to mind when you think about her, the context of female sexuality being a Scorpion theme but not male sexuality in the same way, and more. I've already acknowledged that L5R has done better by its female characters than many other stories (and worse than some others) -- but the question here was "why were people so riled up about a simple joke?," and the answer to that is that it stops looking like a simple joke when you consider all the baggage it drags in with it.

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I personally think its getting more attention than it needs to.  Its not like this is a brand new game, you should know what to expect from it. 

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4 hours ago, Kinzen said:

Speaking from the female side of things, it's easier to take "joking around and having fun" when it isn't so frequently happening at your own expense.

That is correct. Yet some people are able to joke about themselves or enjoy other people's jokes about them. Maybe if people were allowed to joke more freely, people would actually feel better about jokes in general. While I do not think that a pillow fight battle between females is a fitting thing in the AMA, I would love to think that someone could make a similar joke between males and no one rise an eyebrow about it because it is just people fooling around.

I am so naive...

5 hours ago, Buttlord said:

Okay, that's fine, but isn't it good to talk about this stuff anyway? I personally want L5R to be inclusive and this provides a good opportunity to discuss what we (community and FFG both) can do to make that a reality.

 

(One suggestion I'd give would be not making cringeworthy off-hand jokes fetishizing lesbians.)

Inclusive means accepting that other people is different from you and may like/say things you do not agree with. As long as there is no malice involved, I would expect some tolerance (and some explaining if really needed, of course). I saw no malice in the AMA but my first thought was "WTF?". By the way, why no one complains about the person who made the question? Would not that person be as "bad" as the one who answered? Will I get sued for joking about Hoturi being an otoko no ko now (change which I would actually aprove of)?

5 hours ago, WHW said:

Reintroducing Kachiko into the storyline faces a serious challenge of her legacy of fetishization and problematic tropes surrounding her.

Kachiko was a seductress, yeah. And kicked so much ass without using seduction. Yet people seems to focus only on the seductress part. Did I miss something?

Anyway, it is not like in real life many people does not use their own bodies to obtain their goals. We do not have to agree with it but it happens. No amount of ruling or inquisiton will ever change that.

4 hours ago, WHW said:

 imagine going to a Marvel related event, and suddenly finding yourself exposed to fandom fetishization of Captain America x Iron Man, with pictures attached and people around cheering for it and talking semi-dirty about it. Though this still isn't a perfect comparison, because men aren't sexualized and fetishized in the same way as women do.

I would not like it beause it is not my cup of tea but I would allow them to have fun. Should I get angry because of all that fanfic about Kirk and Spock? ;) I only care when we talk about canon stuff and if it makes sense or not. If Disney/Marvel came with a good story and reasons for traditional Stark and Thor to become gay (or bisexual) and be together, I may like it or not but I would have no real issues with it. If, on the other hand, they were magically turned gay for some kind of fan service... that is a whole different story.

4 hours ago, muzouka said:

Had a crazy thought that would likely never happen: What if a Scorpion wanted to troll the Crane and decided to use pillows when challenged in a duel?

Otaku Kamoko was once challenged to duel and she chose a horse race as type of duel so... bring in the pillow duels!!!:D Yakamo has dibs for Jade Pillow and Hitomi has dibs for Obsidian Pillow. :lol:

4 hours ago, WHW said:

Yeah, but you are private people joking in your private circle. That wasn't a friend joking with friends. It was an PR event, where they weren't representing themselves as individuals, but were wearing mons of their company, so to speak. While the fact that it's internet and stuff makes it seem "private", it's like hosting a press conference, honestly. @Kinzen could probably explain it more eloquently. 

I must agree with this a lot. Humour is a dangerous thing that should be avoided in serious stuff as much as possible, like AMAs. Humour is a very personal thing that, even without malice, can "trigger" people easily. That said, people should be more benevolent and less angry. Let those who have never made a mistake throw the first stone.

 

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20 minutes ago, Matrim said:

there are better targets for your fury than a off hand minor comment. This thread is a waste of space. I also think it should be deleted.

I'm not so sure that this is a waste of space. Yes fury isn't the way to go. But it should be ok to say "I am not ok with this."

The guy asking the question and the one who answered it aren't bad people. The people who are not ok with that kind of stuff aren't either.

I personally don't care about what people do in their circle of friends. My friends and I are often talking **** to eachother all the time because that's how we grew up. That's doesn't mean I should be able to talk **** to people who aren't my friends. It's more or less the same thing here.

But I care that everyone in this community feel welcome. We will talk **** to each other once we get to know that it's ok to do so. ;)

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1 hour ago, Wintersong said:

That is correct. Yet some people are able to joke about themselves or enjoy other people's jokes about them. Maybe if people were allowed to joke more freely, people would actually feel better about jokes in general. While I do not think that a pillow fight battle between females is a fitting thing in the AMA, I would love to think that someone could make a similar joke between males and no one rise an eyebrow about it because it is just people fooling around.

I actually don't have a problem with the suggestion itself, in the sense of having relatively serious characters being drawn in a completely silly situation.  The problem comes when people feel the need to sexualize female characters simply because they are female characters, like they aren't allowed to have an identity outside of their sexiness.  Maybe the initial question was just trying to be silly, but the responses to it (both in support and in protest) seems to be treating it as the latter.

Now, changing topics...

1 hour ago, Wintersong said:

Otaku Kamoko was once challenged to duel and she chose a horse race as type of duel so... bring in the pillow duels!!!:D Yakamo has dibs for Jade Pillow and Hitomi has dibs for Obsidian Pillow. :lol:

So in Rokugan, just absolutely anything can count as a duel?  If someone challenges me to a duel because a hundred years ago my ancestor accidentally belched in the same room as his ancestor and didn't properly apologize for it, I could choose the type of duel to be a hot dog eating contest, or a duel to see who could make the largest, freestanding stack of koku?

"Very well, sir!  For this duel we shall go to the top of the castle and see who can hock a loogie the furthest!"

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6 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Now, changing topics...

So in Rokugan, just absolutely anything can count as a duel?  If someone challenges me to a duel because a hundred years ago my ancestor accidentally belched in the same room as his ancestor and didn't properly apologize for it, I could choose the type of duel to be a hot dog eating contest, or a duel to see who could make the largest, freestanding stack of koku?

"Very well, sir!  For this duel we shall go to the top of the castle and see who can hock a loogie the furthest!"

Well, she'd probably cause some loss of face for her family by doing that... (Bet she chose 5 on the dial).

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3 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I actually don't have a problem with the suggestion itself, in the sense of having relatively serious characters being drawn in a completely silly situation.  The problem comes when people feel the need to sexualize female characters simply because they are female characters, like they aren't allowed to have an identity outside of their sexiness.  Maybe the initial question was just trying to be silly, but the responses to it (both in support and in protest) seems to be treating it as the latter.

Now, changing topics...

So in Rokugan, just absolutely anything can count as a duel?  If someone challenges me to a duel because a hundred years ago my ancestor accidentally belched in the same room as his ancestor and didn't properly apologize for it, I could choose the type of duel to be a hot dog eating contest, or a duel to see who could make the largest, freestanding stack of koku?

"Very well, sir!  For this duel we shall go to the top of the castle and see who can hock a loogie the furthest!"

I would never expect a pillow fight like in the original question to make it into the game by the simple reason that it does not make sense. L5R is not a shonen manga. Even less ecchi or hentai. Altough seeing some of the art of some old cards... But yeah, not the most fortunate answer and I am sure that the person responsible feels bad for it. Now let's ignore the incoming Shoju-Toturi bromance... :ph34r:

About Kamoko's duel, I do not remember all the details that well. I read it in the Way of the Unicorn, I think? And maybe the fact that she is high rank (daughter of daimyo at the time?) may have influenced the situation. Still, I found funny that horse racing duel was possible.

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3 minutes ago, Wintersong said:

I would never expect a pillow fight like in the original question to make it into the game by the simple reason that it does not make sense. L5R is not a shonen manga. Even less ecchi or hentai. Altough seeing some of the art of some old cards... But yeah, not the most fortunate answer and I am sure that the person responsible feels bad for it. Now let's ignore the incoming Shoju-Toturi bromance... :ph34r:

About Kamoko's duel, I do not remember all the details that well. I read it in the Way of the Unicorn, I think? And maybe the fact that she is high rank (daughter of daimyo at the time?) may have influenced the situation. Still, I found funny that horse racing duel was possible.

I never said it should make it into the game; just that what was objectionable was the implication of the question rather than the question itself.

I just seem to recall in the fiction that every time someone challenges someone else, they assume it'll be a sword duel to the death.  However, it often happens that the challenged chooses some other form of duel, and it always surprises the challenger and onlookers, despite not apparently being uncommon.  It just sort of begs the question of how anyone expects to ever duel anyone, unless the challenged is just too stupid to pick a duel they're good at.

 

Challenger:  Hey!  Tsuruchi!  I challenge you to a duel!

Tsuruchi:  OkduelofarcheryIwin.  Next!

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I don't mind jokes now and again.  I know the Scorpion clan and their seductresses have always been a bit iffy, but it never bothered me any more than the pretty boy Crane.  I think part of what makes L5R effective is the vast difference in personality the clans represent.  I always loved going to an event, talking with someone and finding out what clan they have attached themselves to.

I think the question being discussed was in poor taste and as this is a PR event to pump up this game, probably not a good move to dignify it with an answer.  I also understand that we're all human and as the Safety Officer at my company, I've made a few poor taste jokes about safety or only dummies getting hurt on such a menial task.

I think at the end of the day, FFG would do well to make sure there is a clear line between the clans and dress/appearance.  The Scorpion should be willing to do whatever it takes to manipulate and get what they want.  Sometimes that does include dressing provocatively.  On the other hand, we should see the more traditional clans not dressing that way.

Edited by ricefrisbeetreats

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One does have to wonder at all the various calls for deleting this topic. 

One, specifically, does have to wonder just what could possibly seem so threatening about such a mildly-phrased opening post and such measured explanations as to why some feel -- as do I, may I add -- that the situation was inappropriate.

Why, one could almost suspect that certain elements of the playerbase feel threatened by such people feeling they can speak up and air their concerns.

I wonder why that may be.

 

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2 minutes ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

I don't mind jokes now and again.  I know the Scorpion clan and their seductresses have always been a bit iffy, but it never bothered me any more than the pretty boy Crane.  I think part of what makes L5R effective is the vast difference in personality the clans represent.  I always loved going to an event, talking with someone and finding out what clan they have attached themselves to.

I think the question being discussed was in poor taste and as this is a PR event to pump up this game, probably not a good move to dignify it with an answer.  I also understand that we're all human and as the Safety Officer at my company, I've made a few poor taste jokes about safety or only dummies getting hurt on such a menial task.

I think at the end of the day, FFG would do well to make sure there is a clear line between the clans and dress/appearance.  The Scorpion should be willing to do whatever it takes to manipulate and get what they want.  Sometimes that does include dressing provocatively.  On the other hand, we should see the more traditional clans not dressing that way.

I guess being during a PR event before the game is even released may also have something to do with it.  When you have well-established characters, and someone wants to fanservicize them, people may roll their eyes, but they know how the characters really are, so those who aren't interested will just ignore it and move on.  When you have brand new characters, though (or characters who have just gone through a reboot and who may or may not be the same as you remember them), that can shine a different light on things, especially if it's the company itself treating the characters less respectfully.  Since this is our first impression of the characters, having a representative of the company treat one or two of them as a joke could color players' perception of the characters.

I'm certainly not saying that this single joke has completely tainted Hotaru's legacy and we'll never be able to take her seriously.  What I am saying is that FFG probably needs to treat their characters a bit differently than they might four or five years from now, if someone made a similar joke about a character who was already well-established.

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3 minutes ago, Doji Satevis said:

I wonder why that may be.

 

I would bet that one reason would be certain people starting a WAAAGH!!! whenever they see something they think is wrong. Not talking about people just sharing their own viewpoint, doing a debate and such, but the crusading ones that do not even bother to check the facts, context or anything like that. Just witch-hunt.

There may surely be other reasons but the previous group is the one that can make devs at an AMA panic due to some breach of etiquette by one of them. 

And you can blame that kind of people from having others to become defensive whenever that kind of topics are touched. Altough if the joke had been about two males instead of two females, I doubt anyone would had raised an eyebrow. Which would be comparatively sad.

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Just now, Wintersong said:

I would bet that one reason would be certain people starting a WAAAGH!!! whenever they see something they think is wrong. Not talking about people just sharing their own viewpoint, doing a debate and such, but the crusading ones that do not even bother to check the facts, context or anything like that. Just witch-hunt.

There may surely be other reasons but the previous group is the one that can make devs at an AMA panic due to some breach of etiquette by one of them. 

And you can blame that kind of people from having others to become defensive whenever that kind of topics are touched. Altough if the joke had been about two males instead of two females, I doubt anyone would had raised an eyebrow. Which would be comparatively sad.

It may well be.  Perhaps.  Maybe.

But, you know, somehow I strongly doubt that is the lion's share of the reason.  I've seen this dance too many times before to not recognize a desperate attempt to shut down any and all criticism of the "boy's club" when I see it, and if these certain bodies, here in this thread, are going to behave like this when there is not a drop of "crusading" to be seen here?

Well then.

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6 minutes ago, Doji Satevis said:

One does have to wonder at all the various calls for deleting this topic. 

One, specifically, does have to wonder just what could possibly seem so threatening about such a mildly-phrased opening post and such measured explanations as to why some feel -- as do I, may I add -- that the situation was inappropriate.

Why, one could almost suspect that certain elements of the playerbase feel threatened by such people feeling they can speak up and air their concerns.

I wonder why that may be.

 

Maybe it's because there's no such thing as a rational discussion on this topic on the Internet, and it always seems to devolve into people pointing fingers and accusing each other of bad motives. Like, say, a snide insinuation that everyone who wants a highly-controversial post closed so we can discuss the game ... might have an ulterior motive.

I came to this forum because I wanted to find out more about the game. I'm sick and tired of the "all SJWs are fascists!" "All men are oppressors!" BS that the Internet swims in, and I wanted to get away from that for a moment and find out more about an awesome game that I'm excited about. And now instead of feeling excited, I'm irritated, because the gender wars that pervade the rest of the Internet are being shoved in my face, AND there are people snidely insinuating the most malicious, gossipy things about their opponents. Gee, is it any surprise that some people don't want this kind of malicious behavior cluttering up what should have been a fun forum?

I wasn't going to join in the call for this thread to be closed, but now that I've read your comment, I've changed my mind. Your comment advanced no evidence for your statement, and in fact made no argument whatsoever other than "everyone who disagrees with me is a big poopy-head". When the debate degenerates into that kind of name-calling, it's time to close it, as it has long since gone past the point of usefulness.

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Just now, rmunn said:

Maybe it's because there's no such thing as a rational discussion on this topic on the Internet, and it always seems to devolve into people pointing fingers and accusing each other of bad motives. Like, say, a snide insinuation that everyone who wants a highly-controversial post closed so we can discuss the game ... might have an ulterior motive.

I came to this forum because I wanted to find out more about the game. I'm sick and tired of the "all SJWs are fascists!" "All men are oppressors!" BS that the Internet swims in, and I wanted to get away from that for a moment and find out more about an awesome game that I'm excited about. And now instead of feeling excited, I'm irritated, because the gender wars that pervade the rest of the Internet are being shoved in my face, AND there are people snidely insinuating the most malicious, gossipy things about their opponents. Gee, is it any surprise that some people don't want this kind of malicious behavior cluttering up what should have been a fun forum?

I wasn't going to join in the call for this thread to be closed, but now that I've read your comment, I've changed my mind. Your comment advanced no evidence for your statement, and in fact made no argument whatsoever other than "everyone who disagrees with me is a big poopy-head". When the debate degenerates into that kind of name-calling, it's time to close it, as it has long since gone past the point of usefulness.

That's an attractive strawman, but that's all that it is.  Neither am I particularly impressed with this tactic of "but you see, it's you who are the oppressors", which is also one I am well familiar with. 

Ah well, so it goes.

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3 hours ago, Wintersong said:

By the way, why no one complains about the person who made the question? Would not that person be as "bad" as the one who answered?

Probably because it was a random internet idiot. If you get mad at random internet idiots for saying off-color things you'd never do anything else.

I can understand FFG having an employee that made a mistake, too. What bothers me is how they tried to sweep the whole thing under the rug. That was absolutely the worst way to handle this.

1 minute ago, rmunn said:

And now instead of feeling excited, I'm irritated, because the gender wars that pervade the rest of the Internet are being shoved in my face

Shoved in your face? It's only in one thread. Just stop reading it if it bothers you so much.

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Just now, Doji Satevis said:

That's an attractive strawman, but that's all that it is.  Neither am I particularly impressed with this tactic of "but you see, it's you who are the oppressors", which is also one I am well familiar with. 

Ah well, so it goes.

What's the strawman? That these threads always seem to devolve? This one has. That you are making snide insinuations with no evidence? Because you have yet to present any evidence. At what point did I say anything like "It's you who are the oppressors"? I said that you were making snide insinuations, and calling everyone who disagreed with you a big poopy-head. Stop putting words into my mouth that I didn't say, if you please. And especially don't do that while you accuse me of advancing a strawman argument: that's particularly rich.

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5 minutes ago, Fumi said:

Probably because it was a random internet idiot. If you get mad at random internet idiots for saying off-color things you'd never do anything else.

I can understand FFG having an employee that made a mistake, too. What bothers me is how they tried to sweep the whole thing under the rug. That was absolutely the worst way to handle this.

While I agree with you about the futility of denouncing "random internet idiots", I do believe on it being needed. The problematic answer would not have been given if the question had not been made in the first place. And if it must be made clear that those kind of answers are not ok, it should be made clear too that those kind of questions are not either. In my opinion, of course. :) It was FFG's duty to avoid answering that kind of questions tough.

And I have to agree with you about the way they handled it, even if I can understand (or so I imagine) why. There is hope for future events being handled better, in answers and forms. No need for unnecesary drama. :) We just want to enjoy the game, its stories and the social experience of it.

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15 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

All the more reason *to do* something like that.  I am beginning to think I imagined this but for a long time I thought there was a Scorpion who's secret was that he was gay - there is no stigma to being gay in Rokugan but every Scorpion keeps a secret and that is what he chose to keep hidden.  I have always really liked this idea (again, did I imagine this NPC? I thought he was from a printed book or something - maybe John Wick era, sounds very Wick) because in its exception, it makes being gay accepted as normal and the emphasis was on how weird his Clan practices are and not his orientation.

If "the internet" can't handle something...who really cares?  Those that matter don't mind and those that mind don't matter.  That and the snickering children can get called out to grow up.

You are absolutely correct and that NPC does indeed exist.

 

City of Lies, GM's Guide.

Shosuro Gobei is the NPC you're thinking about.

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