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Blail Blerg

VSD upgrades

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To continue on Blail's point, my list consisting of 2 AFs with GT and Home One + just Tycho and Shara messed up a 2 Vic Rhymer list by simply destroying the carriers before they could do anything. Unless you flew Home One terribly wrong, it's supposed to work nicely.

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8 minutes ago, Sybreed said:

I'm surprised the bomber wing blew up an 80 points worth of fighter support.

 

What were you running? In my experience, a 60 points A-Wing squad can mess up a 100 points Bomber squad


Blew up Tycho and something else immediately.  Rolled like 2 accs and 2 hits. Then followed it up with 2 FCT moves into Yavaris double tapping Wedge again for the last 2 damage.  Blew up something else  also very quickly.  Then tied up the other 2 with one squadron and intel'ed past them (not in this order ofc).  Blew out all the shields on the MC80 with the other 2 yavaris taps and the remaining squadrons, finished it off the next turn after it got one attack off as it got into long range. 

The turns before that were spent threatening to one-shot my cr90s off the table with the squadrons. 

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Vic 1 with veteran gunners and spinal armaments. It's surprisingly nasty. 

I used to run Vic 2's with leading shots and H9s, which were also quite potent, but also quite expensive. Boy did that pop flotillas quickly. I also tried it with leading shots but that was even more expensive.

My issue with VSDs, and believe me, I am a huge advocate of them, is that whenever I run them, I can guarantee I will not be able to roll for toffee, hence rerolling ability is mandatory. 

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8 minutes ago, Sybreed said:

To continue on Blail's point, my list consisting of 2 AFs with GT and Home One + just Tycho and Shara messed up a 2 Vic Rhymer list by simply destroying the carriers before they could do anything. Unless you flew Home One terribly wrong, it's supposed to work nicely.

To be really honest, and I know this well, Ackbar is the prime predator of VSDs.  They don't have the defense to hold off firepower of that magnitude.  I know this very well.  However, I'm basically getting intel'ed then Yavaris and Adar Tallon double tapped for nearly 13 or 14 squadron attacks (the doubles are also usually two dice Bwings or the Gold squadron) and that type of attack basically leaves everything dead in one turn.  

So in this case: Tycho and Shara simply get ignored, and you get to bomb with 4 squads x1, and then 4 squads x2 (Yavaris + Adar Tallon): 

Bwings with 2 BCC and Toryn = about (more than this but for simplicity) 2.5 dmg avg.  Gold = 2.  3B x 2 [Yavaris] x 2.5 dmg = 12 dmg + 2dmg[Gold] x2 [Adar] = 16 dmg. 
Singular one die attacks x 5 , some with bomber some without avg 1 after some with BCC included = 5dmg. 
That's 21 dmg in one turn.  
Not counting Norra damage. 

MC80 can redirect to each other shield zone for 4 damage at a time (dropping damage from Norra).  This is mostly imperfect, but lets say you can move 3-4 damage per use of redirect, and you're only redirecting to adjacent zones, so 12 total shields on adjacent zones + 8 hull = 20 health.  
Blam, you've one shot an MC80. 

Note in my story, its not dead the first turn, it gets one shot, then gets blown up the next turn. 

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1 minute ago, Blail Blerg said:

To be really honest, and I know this well, Ackbar is the prime predator of VSDs.  They don't have the defense to hold off firepower of that magnitude.  I know this very well.  However, I'm basically getting intel'ed then Yavaris and Adar Tallon double tapped for nearly 13 or 14 squadron attacks (the doubles are also usually two dice Bwings or the Gold squadron) and that type of attack basically leaves everything dead in one turn.  

So in this case: Tycho and Shara simply get ignored, and you get to bomb with 4 squads x1, and then 4 squads x2 (Yavaris + Adar Tallon): 

Bwings with 2 BCC and Toryn = about (more than this but for simplicity) 2.5 dmg avg.  Gold = 2.  3B x 2 [Yavaris] x 2.5 dmg = 12 dmg + 2dmg[Gold] x2 [Adar] = 16 dmg. 
Singular one die attacks x 5 , some with bomber some without avg 1 after some with BCC included = 5dmg. 
That's 21 dmg in one turn.  
Not counting Norra damage. 

MC80 can redirect to each other shield zone for 4 damage at a time (dropping damage from Norra).  This is mostly imperfect, but lets say you can move 3-4 damage per use of redirect, and you're only redirecting to adjacent zones, so 12 total shields on adjacent zones + 8 hull = 20 health.  
Blam, you've one shot an MC80. 

Note in my story, its not dead the first turn, it gets one shot, then gets blown up the next turn. 

hmm ok.

 

Yeah I can see how this can be rough. If you can blow up the intel squad, maybe therE's a way out. But yeah, I tried a full squadron list with Norra and Yavaris, and man, it's nasty.

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Lol thanks for the empathy haha. 

That 21 + 3 Norra damage is "theoretical" in that it basically requires perfect set up, but its not hard to acquire by use blobbing everything together.  The problem is that even partial of that full set of damage is usually crippling, take 10dmg + 3 shield damage via Norra?  That's basically half the large ship gone. 

Yavaris double tap alone one shots every single small ship except the mc30, which hangs on by 2 hull.  

If you can snipe the intel that definitely helps, but you're unlikely to really be able to get past 9-10 squadrons and 4 of them double attacking including Wedge.  At that point you're not investing 30pts or 60pts, you're investing near 100 points into squadrons to do that, and you cant fit the MC80 2Cr90s and 2Tranposrts and ackbar anymore. 

--

 

Anyway back to VSDs. 

(the good thing for VSDs is that rarely do ppl play Ackbar anymore cuz every game nowadays has one side with 100-134 squadrons of some sort)

Edited by Blail Blerg

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8 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Lol thanks for the empathy haha. 

That 21 + 3 Norra damage is "theoretical" in that it basically requires perfect set up, but its not hard to acquire by use blobbing everything together.  The problem is that even partial of that full set of damage is usually crippling, take 10dmg + 3 shield damage via Norra?  That's basically half the large ship gone. 

Yavaris double tap alone one shots every single small ship except the mc30, which hangs on by 2 hull.  

what you could try is to go X-Wings and E-Wings with Flight controllers and try to wreck havoc as much as possible. If they don't have any squadron supports, they are still bombers so it's not all wasted.

The friends with who I play often go squadronless, so I'm starting to switch from fighter support to bomber wing now.

Edited by Sybreed

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1 minute ago, Sybreed said:

what you could try is to go X-Wings and E-Wings with Flight controllers and try to wreck as much havoc as possible. If they don't have any squadron supports, they are still bombers so it's not all wasted.

The friends with who I play often go squadronless, so I'm starting to switch from fighter support to bomber wing now.

That sounds fun.  No one plays Ewings.  (In both FFG games!)

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41 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I need you to explain a little more for the squadron advice part, can you? 
esp the speed zero part. 
Btw, you'd take Chirpy instead of Dengar or a Jump? 

Going zero is a great way of delaying the engagement: disrupting the rhythm of an enemy bomber fleet can throw all kinds of wrenches into their command stack.  I know if I'm depending on Yavaris or bombers in general, I can't run my ships too fast or I'll overrun my fighters.  With yavaris, you can only use the ability if the enemy fall into your engagament zone: going speed zero at an unexpected time prevents yavvy from proccing if those fighters have to move.  Keeping your own ships at zero, combined with the overall superior speed of imp fighters, means you have a much better ability to dictate terms of engagement.  Intel is useless if all you can shoot are fighters anyways, and thats even more points not used for squad superiority.

 

I like chirpy over dengar because i dont have to waste one of my activations on pushing that jumpmaster around.  I'd rather use the extra 10 points towards another advanced.  If you run 2 advances and are careful about how they get placed, you might even get 3 or even 4 procs off mauler, which is a whole lot of dead b-wings!

Ig-88, if you can spare the points, makes a great addition to this kind of CAP, as he can really swing the battle with a few key ignore escort attacks (like killing jan ors after the second mauler proc, which you should totally be gunning for!)  I hear sabre squadron also helps with this, but I havent tried that yet.

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4 minutes ago, Sybreed said:

what you could try is to go X-Wings and E-Wings with Flight controllers and try to wreck havoc as much as possible. If they don't have any squadron supports, they are still bombers so it's not all wasted.

The friends with who I play often go squadronless, so I'm starting to switch from fighter support to bomber wing now.

I already have a list!

Gallent Haven+Flight Controllers
Bright Hope+Toryn Farr+BCC
BCC+Boosted Comms
TRC90
TRC90+Dodonna
2 E-Wings
2 X-Wings
Wedge
Norra
Jan
Gold

It's a tough nut to crack with Jan and GH. And it's very fun to play with all the dice mods and synergy. 

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2 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I already have a list!

Gallent Haven+Flight Controllers
Bright Hope+Toryn Farr+BCC
BCC+Boosted Comms
TRC90
TRC90+Dodonna
2 E-Wings
2 X-Wings
Wedge
Norra
Jan
Gold

It's a tough nut to crack with Jan and GH. And it's very fun to play with all the dice mods and synergy. 

I like this

 

Edit; Seriously, the list looks both solid and fun

Edited by Sybreed

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3 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I already have a list!

Gallent Haven+Flight Controllers
Bright Hope+Toryn Farr+BCC
BCC+Boosted Comms
TRC90
TRC90+Dodonna
2 E-Wings
2 X-Wings
Wedge
Norra
Jan
Gold

It's a tough nut to crack with Jan and GH. And it's very fun to play with all the dice mods and synergy. 

Do you by chance have pictures of Gallant Haven use?  In wave 2 it was known to be exceedingly difficult to stay within R1 and not overlap everything. 

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2 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Do you by chance have pictures of Gallant Haven use?  In wave 2 it was known to be exceedingly difficult to stay within R1 and not overlap everything. 

No pics. It was my first time trying it so I over extended. I found the best way to use it was to slow roll forward and hope GH gets in range. I frequently overlapped my squads since I'm not used to being bunched up. Doesn't really matter if you force your opponent to come to you :P

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3 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Do you by chance have pictures of Gallant Haven use?  In wave 2 it was known to be exceedingly difficult to stay within R1 and not overlap everything. 

worst case scenario, just drop Gallant Haven if you're afraid of bumping into your own squadrons (which I can't blame you for, I do it all the time) and pick something else that might help out.

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6 minutes ago, Sybreed said:

I like this

 

Edit; Seriously, the list looks both solid and fun

It was incredibly fun to play. Not so much if your opponent has squads since they will never kill anything... But having red bomber dice that effectively deal 2 damage on 3 faces is awesome. The list just makes me happy because it's all about the bomber synergy. And Dodonna is great.

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7 hours ago, Snipafist said:

My preference for VSD-Is is also naked, especially if Captain Jonus is around. Without Jonus I sometimes splurge on an Intel Officer to help their attacks "stick" better.

With Jerry you can upgrade them a bit more if you like because you're more likely to be able to maneuver them to where those upgrades do more good for more of the game. With that said, Spinals+Gunnery Teams on a VSD-I can do fine with him.

In general I see VSDs as a tremendous amount of stats (hull, shields, dice) for their cost but you need to always keep the poor nav chart in mind and navigate frequently and use them as area control/punishment; the more you upgrade them the less cost-effective they become.

I think Intel Off and Jonus are actually great ideas.  Although, I can also see that maybe Intel Off and the accuracy actually don't work that well together. Anyone an opinion? 

------

 

Other: 

I think I might need to write some strategy text about the use of blue vs black dice on VSDs.  They fly totally differently Imo, and I had great success with VSD1s with their black dice, contrary to what people said.  --> This is a matter of flying and how the threat zones work, NOT about the list-building.  If anyone else wants to chip in, please do.  

One thing I did with 2 VSD1s is push one as a centerpiece.  One flank protected by Demo, the other side, I hard pushed a speed 2 VSD1 all game as a giant flanker from about distance 5 away. Did amazing vs semi-MSU.  The 2nd flanking VSD ended up going around and threatening things that came behind the first VSD.  

This was with Moffy J and is basically the Armada variant of the Xwing corner Palpatine shuttle slow flank, which was derived off a 2D simplification of the Thach weave.  

I tend to get 2 nasty black dice shots per VSD.  

I will consider the matter that OE on VSDs are not really thaaaat great.  

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2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I think Intel Off and Jonus are actually great ideas.  Although, I can also see that maybe Intel Off and the accuracy actually don't work that well together. Anyone an opinion?

It's one or the other, really. If no Jonus, then consider Intels. If Jonus, then Intels probably not necessary and you could consider a Skilled First Officer if you'd like (because 1 point for helping with command snafus is at the very least a benign use of points but it can frequently be helpful).

Other cheap upgrades for VSD-Is are worth considering but it's paramount to keep them as dirt cheap as possible in most cases. Dual Turbolaser Turrets help make their red dice (the attack they'll be getting pretty much all game) more reliable for not much more. I think External Racks are going to be great on VSD-Is given they usually only get 1 turn where they get into short range anyways, so a cheap disposable attack buff there seems quite useful if circumstantial. 

Quote

I had great success with VSD1s with their black dice, contrary to what people said.

VSD-Is are my strong preference as well. You pay an awful lot of points to go from a VSD-I to a VSD-II but you're still saddled with the same poor nav chart. Generally I don't find it to be worth it.

Quote

I will consider the matter that OE on VSDs are not really thaaaat great.  

I also don't like Ordnance Experts on VSDs. You just don't get the black dice frequently enough for it to really be worthwhile.

Edited by Snipafist

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Kicking around Warlord + H9s on a VSD-I.

Is this a crazy over-use of points?  Does a treat for their AA work - effectively auto-damages everything in close-to-medium range with one damage.  Seems like it would do okay for anti-ship, too - any time you roll a single red hit, you turn one of them into a double.  And total cost is only a bit more than a naked VSD-II, so....maybe?

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17 hours ago, xanderf said:

Why the points for VSD2?  Such a spendy ship to start from, and even with JJ, either VSD is moving and turning slow enough that few people get in close/medium range of them.

I currently use the VSD2 as a second wave ship - I have an ISD or Gladiator that will usually engage first.

Often people try to get around behind the ISD or circle it, the VSD discourages this :)

If it's more of a head on engagement then the VSD2 (with Spinal) can hit a target with almost ISD2 firepower a turn after the ISD has - either this will free up the ISD to move on to something else, or can catch something quick enough to slip past the ISD's arc.

JJ is just icing on the cake as I can swing the front arc about enough to nearly catch anything.

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1 hour ago, Madaghmire said:

Also, i dunno if its been said, but when 6 drops External Racks on a 1 are going to be a great add, and can be fired from any arc.

I said it 4 posts earlier ;).

Seriously, though, 100% agreement there. I think External Racks are going to be great on VSD-Is and Raider-Is so far as Imperials are concerned.

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I like the idea of using a VSD-2 as a trailer. I'm using demo/soft rhymer list with a Arquittens, Demo, VSD-2 and a flotilla with Ryhmer and co in the hopes of damaging everyone enough so that the VSD-2 can finish them once it gets in range.

Edited by Sybreed

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and here's said list. I wonder if I should not pick Needa for the VSD-2 actually.

note: I removed a Tie Bomber and added ECM/Tua on the VSD

Rhymer/Demo fleet 
Author: Vhailor

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 390/400  

Commander: Moff Jerjerrod

Assault Objective: Precision Strike
Defense Objective: Planetary Ion Cannon
Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

 

[ flagship ] Victory II-Class Star Destroyer (85 points)
-  Moff Jerjerrod  ( 23  points) 
-  Gunnery Team  ( 7  points) 
-  Boosted Comms  ( 4  points) 
-  Spinal Armament  ( 9  points) 
= 128 total ship cost

 

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 points)
 Demolisher  ( 10  points) 
-  Ordnance Experts  ( 4  points) 
-  Engine Techs  ( 8  points) 
-  Assault Proton Torpedoes  ( 5  points) 
= 83 total ship cost

 

Arquitens-class Light Cruiser (54 points)
-  Dual Turbolaser Turrets  ( 5  points) 
= 59 total ship cost

 

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
-  Expanded Hangar Bay  ( 5  points) 
-  Bomber Command Center  ( 8  points) 
= 36 total ship cost

 

1 Dengar ( 20 points) 
1 Major Rhymer ( 16 points) 
3 TIE Bomber Squadrons ( 27 points) 
1 Darth Vader ( 21 points) 

Card view link

Edited by Sybreed

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19 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

No pics. It was my first time trying it so I over extended. I found the best way to use it was to slow roll forward and hope GH gets in range. I frequently overlapped my squads since I'm not used to being bunched up. Doesn't really matter if you force your opponent to come to you :P

Just use Flight Commander to ensure the positioning of squadrons within the GH bubble. Combo with Biggs for more annoyance.

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