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Should the Ghost TLT turret be nerfed?

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This sort of build gets dirty when you put an Intel Agent and Navigator on Hera, kit a TLT and Accuracy Corrector along with an Engine (and the shuttle of course) and she should be dropping some serious damage - especially one 1 and 2 green dice ships.  Against single agility ships that is 4 automatic damage a turn, and good luck staying in the donut.....

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6 hours ago, thatdave said:

This sort of build gets dirty when you put an Intel Agent and Navigator on Hera, kit a TLT and Accuracy Corrector along with an Engine (and the shuttle of course) and she should be dropping some serious damage - especially one 1 and 2 green dice ships.  Against single agility ships that is 4 automatic damage a turn, and good luck staying in the donut.....

That Ghost build was used at a recent US tournament recently, cant remember which one, was on YouTube. In the games he won the opponent had lower PS, the games he lost the opponent had higher PS. It's as simple as that with Heragator. She cant Rng 1 dodge if she has to move first. 

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3 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:

That Ghost build was used at a recent US tournament recently, cant remember which one, was on YouTube. In the games he won the opponent had lower PS, the games he lost the opponent had higher PS. It's as simple as that with Heragator. She cant Rng 1 dodge if she has to move first. 

She can with a combat phase boost from Ashoka..  

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13 hours ago, Khyros said:

As one of the original advocates to the Kanan/Biggs list, I will tell you that it's a strong list, especially in this meta that's rather AT lite.  But it has several very hard counters.  To start with, Autothruster aces just eat it alive.  Not only do they severely cripple it's TLT damage, but if your Kanan doesn't have EU, they will just hug that R1 blind spot the entire game.  And if he does have EU, then he's not using his ability for more than 1-2 turns, leaving him shooting with just a TL to your AT+F+E turtling, and he's eating the full damage you throw at him.  

But other tanks typically can outtank him as well.  Rey comes to mind here - she'll blow through his health like crazy, and since she had plenty of health herself (not to mention her basically 2.5 agility) she'll be able to dodge a lot of his attacks.  Bombing Miranda can also be a very difficult matchup (especially without the EU).  A well played OldFennaroo or Paratinni will give him fits as well.  Actually, Assaj in general has a pretty good matchup considering the point difference.

That being said, very few of those ships (short of the AT PTL aces) will be able to win 1on1 against a full health Ghost... nor should they - it's up to 74 points of attacking, it should beat a 35-50 point ship without much trouble.  But if you bring it down to half health before it's a one-on-one situation, these all have a very good chance at winning.  That being said, my money is on Rey if they're in a one-on-one.

That's Kanan/Biggs.  The Hera/Ahsoka list is something else and definitely steers very close to NPE.

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5 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

That's Kanan/Biggs.  The Hera/Ahsoka list is something else and definitely steers very close to NPE.

Perhaps I'm just stupid, but there are oh-so-very-many counters to a Hera/Ahsoka list.  First, anything that denies Ahsoka her focus token shuts down her free action, and we can debate the value of a free action at the start of combat anyways (Airen w/ VI has been able to basically do that since W4, but has NEVER seen competitive play)... Such things would include bumping, stress, jax, teroch, asteroid placement, death.  Sure, you have to be PS9 to shoot at her, but Dengar and Fenn are meta staples these days, not to mention fringe uses of VI Rey and VI Bossk.  But if you do shoot at her, she's just a frackin actionless tie fighter that costs 21+ points.

 

But that's just the Ahsoka side of things.  As for Hera, she's easily shut down by higher PS, and without Kanan's less attack ability, she's crippled under focus fire.  And for anyone that wants to qq about a turret at PS7 that gets to boost at the start of combat if you don't kill its side kick which then has to somehow CATCH UP to said large base boosting ship, need I remind you about the good ole days (sarcasm for those that don't recognize it) where Fat Han was boosting at PS9, had rerolls via predator and his ability and defense from C3PO (and the occasional evade token) making him literally immune to 2 attack dice, and next to immune from 3 dice.  Fat turret point sinks have always be apart of the game, and there are very clear strategies already in place on how to defeat them.  Hint - don't let them just circle around the rocks.

 

Maybe my opinion will change when I play against it, but it just seems like a complete unwarranted complaint about a fringe list that has some good matchups and plenty of hardcore counters.  

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Just now, Stay On The Leader said:

I think you need to play against it.

Just playing against it isn't enough.  You need to play against it when it's being run by someone who's good at it.  Even the best can make mistakes with it, and when they do, it's pretty trivial to take apart - c.f. what happened to Cal Jones himself in the final of Yavin.

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Kanan Biggs want to engage with you, it is equipped to come pretty close and interact, taking your dice off you.  You can bump it, you can choose your targets and try to separate the two ships, you can just gun it down.

Heragator does not want to engage with you.  It is equipped to stay out of range as much as possible and only occasionally dip into range 3 when it knows it's relatively safe to do so.  You can't really affect it because it's too far away, you can't switch targets to Ahsoka because you can't shoot Ahsoka with Captured TIE, you just try and maneuver to where he has more than 1 ship at range 3 of him at once, because if you do it with just one ship he probably wins that race with 4 TLT shots.  If you have high PS you have a game, if you have low PS it's very difficult.  It ignores the rules on maneuver dials, it ignores the rules on shooting, it ignores dice variance, it's very clever but a long way from anything I would want to play against - it makes Super Dash look like everyone's favourite opponent.

It's another example where the actual experience of playing the game is the issue, not that it's unbeatable.  For the majority of players, especially those not bringing a specific type of list, the game is both incredibly boring and extremely unfairly stacked against them.

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1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Kanan Biggs want to engage with you, it is equipped to come pretty close and interact, taking your dice off you.  You can bump it, you can choose your targets and try to separate the two ships, you can just gun it down.

Heragator does not want to engage with you.  It is equipped to stay out of range as much as possible and only occasionally dip into range 3 when it knows it's relatively safe to do so.  You can't really affect it because it's too far away, you can't switch targets to Ahsoka because you can't shoot Ahsoka with Captured TIE, you just try and maneuver to where he has more than 1 ship at range 3 of him at once, because if you do it with just one ship he probably wins that race with 4 TLT shots.  If you have high PS you have a game, if you have low PS it's very difficult.  It ignores the rules on maneuver dials, it ignores the rules on shooting, it ignores dice variance, it's very clever but a long way from anything I would want to play against - it makes Super Dash look like everyone's favourite opponent.

It's another example where the actual experience of playing the game is the issue, not that it's unbeatable.  For the majority of players, especially those not bringing a specific type of list, the game is both incredibly boring and extremely unfairly stacked against them.

Not quite. There are still ways to hurt Ahsoka without being able to shoot her. Block her to prevent the focus action. Drop bombs on her. Use Ruthlessness to make getting into R1 of the Ghost a bad idea.

Likewise, Hera has her own weaknesses. She's a large based ship, so you can get in the way of her intended boost (unfortunately, this likely puts you in R1 of her primary, but it might be worth it if you have a cheap blocker or a swarm). Omega Leader is immune to Accuracy Corrector, and Soontir laughs at two hit results from a turret.

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I've played against Heragator a couple times with good players. The first time I had a list with ships mostly <PS7. The other I had mostly ships >PS7. The first game I got absolutely destroyed. The second game I tabled my opponent.

Heragator is not unbeatable by any stretch, but I will argue that it is NPE on the level of Kylo Ren crew. That first game I played was one of the worst experiences I've ever had playing X-wing. Hera absolutely laughs at anything below PS7 and counter-play options are minimal short of running other turrets (which is a terrible alternative to have).

The second game was a lot better (and more fun!) but that's because Hera's ability didn't matter. All I had to plan for was her start of combat boost. Lots of counter play possible in that scenario.

Like Kylo, it's not going to win much, but it's definitely not enjoyable to play against. I liked the old rules between Ghost and TLT where the double tap only granted the first attack.

EDIT: By the way, the version I played against had Rey crew on Ahsoka, so blocking from getting actions did absolutely nothing.

Edited by defkhan1

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I think that a general TLT nerf may be a good thing for the game.

Proponents of one like to point to quad TLT, but that's not really the main issue anymore (at least until Imperials get quad 3 agility TLT or the ability to combo Fanatical Devotion and Ruthlessness on a TLT ship). The problem builds that have TLT in them are Kanan Biggs and Miranda. These are builds where the popular idea that you should be limited to 2 of them per squad would really have no effect.

So yeah, you could make a Ghost with TLT and docked Phantom only be able to do 3 attacks instead of 4, but that doesn't solve the underlying issue of TLT being an overpowered card that makes awful ships like HWK's decent, makes decent ships like Y-Wings great, and makes great ships like Miranda and 74 point fat turrets overpowered.

Something like only being able to perform the second TLT attack if the first misses, or only being able to modify attack dice in arc should happen. That would incentivize BTL-A4 use which isn't a bad thing either.

Edited by Turbo Toker

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^Capping TLT at one damage a turn would make it terrible. I do see it as a potential problem card, but not yet. The Tie Aggressor is when I think TLT proves fair or broken.

 

Regardless, I think giving a range 3 bonus to defenders solves almost all issues. It allows for a range 3 approach with arc dodgers - the things being squeezed from the meta - while still maintaining the upside that TLT has always had. It just makes them a bit less consistent and opens up positioning advantages to every opposing list. It discourages Ghost kites. It decreases Miranda's offensive output and encourages her to engage rather than kite. Give range 1 bonuses and I'd bet the other turrets see use as well (you'd have to cap autoblaster turret at 2).

 

I don't think we need that change now. I don't think these Ghost builds are broken, just near NPEs that promote undesirable strategies (if hera kites away, don't chase... You have advantage in the final volley. Peel off and reposittion to focus fire later in the game. This wise counter-strategy is undesireable because it can put the game into an uniteractive state of a mexican standoff). The effect of TLT on the meta can certainly grow and alter things when an entire new faction gets to play with it. Then, we may need a change. TLT vs TLT is boring as hell. I hate yahtzee.

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1 hour ago, Lobokai said:

But dies a thousand deaths in competitive play.  RIP 3 red arc dodgers. 

But that's not due to TLT. That's due to other factors, like bombs, which make expensive, fragile ships a dangerous proposition to fly.

28 minutes ago, Ohnoeszz said:

^Capping TLT at one damage a turn would make it terrible. I do see it as a potential problem card, but not yet. The Tie Aggressor is when I think TLT proves fair or broken.

 

Regardless, I think giving a range 3 bonus to defenders solves almost all issues. It allows for a range 3 approach with arc dodgers - the things being squeezed from the meta - while still maintaining the upside that TLT has always had. It just makes them a bit less consistent and opens up positioning advantages to every opposing list. It discourages Ghost kites. It decreases Miranda's offensive output and encourages her to engage rather than kite. Give range 1 bonuses and I'd bet the other turrets see use as well (you'd have to cap autoblaster turret at 2).

 

I don't think we need that change now. I don't think these Ghost builds are broken, just near NPEs that promote undesirable strategies (if hera kites away, don't chase... You have advantage in the final volley. Peel off and reposittion to focus fire later in the game. This wise counter-strategy is undesireable because it can put the game into an uniteractive state of a mexican standoff). The effect of TLT on the meta can certainly grow and alter things when an entire new faction gets to play with it. Then, we may need a change. TLT vs TLT is boring as hell. I hate yahtzee.

Small nit: if by "Final volley" you're referring to a Final Salvo, then the Heragator is going to be solid in that arena. A standard Ghost/Shuttle/TIE build has 9 red dice. That's pretty average, and would give you an edge over any 2-ship builds.

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1 hour ago, Ohnoeszz said:

I don't think we need that change now. I don't think these Ghost builds are broken, just near NPEs that promote undesirable strategies (if hera kites away, don't chase... You have advantage in the final volley. Peel off and reposittion to focus fire later in the game. This wise counter-strategy is undesireable because it can put the game into an uniteractive state of a mexican standoff).

This is pretty much how my second game went. Both of us spent 30 minutes jockeying for position before a shot was fired. He pseudo-fortresses in the corner, Ahsoka stacking Focus tokens on Rey whike Hera waited for me to approach. I slow rolled up the board edge so that I wouldn't get caught in the Heragator trap. It was very boring until I got him to break out.

47 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

Small nit: if by "Final volley" you're referring to a Final Salvo, then the Heragator is going to be solid in that arena. A standard Ghost/Shuttle/TIE build has 9 red dice. That's pretty average, and would give you an edge over any 2-ship builds.

Thiso brings up an interesting point. Is a docked shuttle considered in play for the purposes of Final Salvo? IIRC whenever you tie you only contribute the red dice of ships still on the board.

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11 hours ago, Lobokai said:

Not being snarky (because any question in a forum sounds that way), what are the issues here?  I've faced plenty of Kanan/Biggs, but not yet played against Hera/Ashoka 

What people hate about it is Hera's ability combined with Navigator.

You can choose 5K, turn it to a hard 1 or 3 then navigator it to a hard 2. This is why she kills lower PS builds, she can pretty much decide where she wants to be after you have moved and there isnt a thing you can do about it. In a higher PS game people try and kill Ashoka first to deny the action at the beginning of combat then pick apart the Ghost.

This is partly why Boba crew is back, get a crit on the Ghost, no TLT no problem. 

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5 hours ago, defkhan1 said:

This is pretty much how my second game went. Both of us spent 30 minutes jockeying for position before a shot was fired. He pseudo-fortresses in the corner, Ahsoka stacking Focus tokens on Rey whike Hera waited for me to approach. I slow rolled up the board edge so that I wouldn't get caught in the Heragator trap. It was very boring until I got him to break out.

Thiso brings up an interesting point. Is a docked shuttle considered in play for the purposes of Final Salvo? IIRC whenever you tie you only contribute the red dice of ships still on the board.

 Yes. Salvo considers ships not yet destroyed. A docked shuttle is included.

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