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Turbo Toker

Picking up an opponent 's dial and looking at it should result in a game loss.

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4 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

I would take a damage on a ship to see what my opponent was doing.

There are certain situations where trading dial information would benefit one player.

You sound like a pretty shady character to consider deliberate cheating to gain a small edge.

Are you sure x-wing is the game for you?

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Scenario: Mirror match of Crackswarm, most of the ships are within range 1 of each other, or even bumping, in a cluster. Dials everywhere, all looking the same, all with the same ship type. Reasonable steps taken to make it clear which dial is who's, but all in fairly close proximity to each other. Player 1 accidentally picks up the wrong dial.

Your solution: Eject the player immediately.
Actual solution: Player 1 now knows opponent's flight path, so Player 2 may choose, look at, and change one of Player 1's dials to gain the same advantage, with a penalty for the mistake in changing to a different maneuver. 

There's a pretty stark difference between the options here. One is a penalty for a mistake, the other is using a nuke to crack a nut. Repeated offences of any kind in the game will be dealt with by a TO in a way that is deemed just, but an outright ejection for picking up the wrong dial once among twelve identical ones on a table is outright ridiculous. 

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5 hours ago, MegaSilver said:

 

I don't like it when people put their dials on their cards. I can't at a glance tell who's gone and what not. And it's easier to keep an eye on board state in general with them next to the ship. Also, it's in the rules they should be next to the ship.

 

Though I might be a bit biased since I had an opponent try to change their dial when they had it on their ship cards early on in my career.

Completely agree. Also, If a dial is not placed next to a ship no dial has not been assigned.

Screenshot_20170416-093936.png

Edited by ScaredOfCrows

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7 minutes ago, ScaredOfCrows said:

Completely agree. Also, If a dial is not placed next to a ship no dial has not been assigned.

Screenshot_20170416-093936.png

Of course OK when playing 100/6 with 5 ships on the table. Try this when 4 Tie Bombers plus 8 screening Tie Fighters engage head on vs 6 X wings... A clean game surface is better if you are on the 600 pts business.

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26 minutes ago, Hexdot said:

Of course OK when playing 100/6 with 5 ships on the table. Try this when 4 Tie Bombers plus 8 screening Tie Fighters engage head on vs 6 X wings... A clean game surface is better if you are on the 600 pts business.

Thats why many people I ve played with put the dials on top of their TIE fighter swarms. When things get crowded and if the shape of the ship allows it, I try to put the dial on top of it instead of right next to it. That said, even though I usualy mark my dials, I have repeatedly picked up my opponents dial accidentally. When you are in the few last minutes of the match and in a hurry, things like that happen. I believe its too harsh to punish a mistake like this with a game loss.  A more suitable way to deal with a situation like this would be to be allowed to reset your dial and move the ship after all other ships have moved.

Edited by tsondaboy

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34 minutes ago, Hexdot said:

Of course OK when playing 100/6 with 5 ships on the table. Try this when 4 Tie Bombers plus 8 screening Tie Fighters engage head on vs 6 X wings... A clean game surface is better if you are on the 600 pts business.

The problem with this analogy is that it's simply not the norm. 100pt, love it or loathe it, is the normal play format regardless of whether it's casual at home, in a store, or at a major tournament. 99% of games won't be "on the 600 pts business", so it's very easy to adhere to the rules and leave the dials beside the ships.

We've come up with a simple enough way to avoid problems if the dial is ambiguously assigned. Pick up the dial you think belongs to the ship you want to activate, show that dial to your opponent without looking at it. If it's their dial, they already know the selection they made or the ship type it's for, and can confirm it's theirs. If it's not their dial, they have seen the maneuver you were about to perform anyway, so it's no real difference. You can even call out what the maneuver should be if the ship types are the same.

It's basic, but it avoids pretty much every trouble we've had with dials getting mixed up.

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This is hard to judge ... is once a mistake or a strategy?  IMO it's a "fly casual"intent, so use the rule of "once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action" rule -- ignore the first time in a tournament, have a significant pentalty for teh second, and you're ejected for the third.

That said, the Mirror Match tournament rule (from X-Wing Tournament Rules v4 and prior) eliminates the risk of picking up an opponent's dial:

Quote

Mirror Matches
A mirror match is a match between two players who are using the same
faction. Tournament seeding does not favor matches between different
factions, so mirror matches will occur. If players using the same faction are
paired for a match, all normal game rules apply; each player may field cards
with unique names even if his or her opponent is using a card with the same
unique name.

To facilitate a mirror match, each player is required to differentiate their ships
from those of thier opponent’s. Players may do this is in any number of ways;
assigning ID tokens provided in the X-Wing core set, marking each ship with
tokens, or painting ships/bases are all acceptable methods. When a player
assigns maneuver dials, he or she may assign them to Ship cards rather than
placing them next to ship bases. This prevents a player from mistaking an
opponent’s dials for his or her own.

Unfortunately when they reorganized the rules they dropped this section -- it was good advice.

Edited by Hawkstrike

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1 hour ago, NakedDex said:

The problem with this analogy is that it's simply not the norm. 100pt, love it or loathe it, is the normal play format regardless of whether it's casual at home, in a store, or at a major tournament. 99% of games won't be "on the 600 pts business", so it's very easy to adhere to the rules and leave the dials beside the ships.

We've come up with a simple enough way to avoid problems if the dial is ambiguously assigned. Pick up the dial you think belongs to the ship you want to activate, show that dial to your opponent without looking at it. If it's their dial, they already know the selection they made or the ship type it's for, and can confirm it's theirs. If it's not their dial, they have seen the maneuver you were about to perform anyway, so it's no real difference. You can even call out what the maneuver should be if the ship types are the same.

It's basic, but it avoids pretty much every trouble we've had with dials getting mixed up.

I simply must disagree in the most polite way. No doubt many players here play 100/6. But I play perhaps 15% 100/6. Many 40 pts "turboscenarios", cinematic between 50-150 pts and our beloved weekly 300 to 600 pts game.

Variants like face down ordnance cards, weird asteroids, or homebrew pilots are the norm and not the exception. As I told in another thread many players ran away from standard play in my area. Not competitive guys who want to simply enjoy X Wings in a more relaxing way. No triple Toilet Seats or triple X7s 

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17 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

I'm listening to episode 61 of Mynock. They interview a Worlds judge.

And the judge was talking about how Wade or Frank or who ever told him that if a dial is looked at, that the opponent gets to look at and change an opponent's dial in response.

This is utterly ridiculous. If that's the actual rule or were to become the actual rule, there is nothing to stop you from purposefully doing it when exchanging dials would benefit you.

I see no option other than an immediate game loss. Players should be more careful, before picking up a dial, take a second to double check.

It's generally not going to benefit you more than it'll hurt you. If it's in the planning phase, they can just change it. If it's after movement has started, you're dials are set anyway, so it only helps with repositioning. And the fact that they get to pick and set one of your dials may result in your ship going ofF the board. Or onto a rock where it can't shoot. Or in front of his buddies to block them, or any number of scenarios that work out badly for you. 

17 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

So it's okay to cheat once?

Fly multiple ships, and on a crucial turn where you outnumber your opponent, you look at their dial. You get to see where their 70 point Ghost is going, and they get to change one of your 4 B-Wing dials.

How would it be proven that this was intentional? That's such a huge gray area.

If it's down to your 4 beings vs their ghost, either you have already basically won, or the one turn of seeing their dial (when it's too late to change yours and it probably takes a being out of the fight, if not off the board) probably won't make or break the game

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7 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

This is hard to judge ... is once a mistake or a strategy?  IMO it's a "fly casual"intent, so use the rule of "once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action" rule -- ignore the first time in a tournament, have a significant pentalty for teh second, and you're ejected for the third.

That said, the Mirror Match tournament rule (from X-Wing Tournament Rules v4 and prior) eliminates the risk of picking up an opponent's dial:

Unfortunately when they reorganized the rules they dropped this section -- it was good advice.

I think this should be reinstated. This way you cannot weaponize the rule in case of a mirror match.

People travel long distances and pay a lot of money to go to Nationals and Regionals and Worlds. Even a Store Championship is a whole day and maybe an hour or two drive.

This is just the sane thing to do. You can't just let people get away with improperly looking at an opponent's dial and treating it as if they had done a red maneuver while stressed. That's ridiculous, and allowing people to get away with it once or twice means they can use it as if it was the Phone a Friend option on Who Wants to be a Millionaire.

 

I'm dumbfounded by the opposition to my proposal. The fact that some of you are calling me a cheater just for pointing out some loopholes in the rules/hypothetical rules and suggesting that they be fixed is ridiculous. I don't want this exploit in the game, it should be fixed.

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2 minutes ago, NakedDex said:

Y'know, when literally everyone is in opposition to the "proposal", including the makers of the game, maybe it's time to step back from the hyperbole and take an objective look at why your call for an outright ejection is receiving so much ire.

I'm guessing that's a figurative literally rather than a literally literally?

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I'll be honest, been playing X-Wing for over a year and never knew you placed the dial next to the ship. Me, my brother, and my uncle always place them on the cards, and haven't had any issues.

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1 hour ago, Turbo Toker said:

I think this should be reinstated. This way you cannot weaponize the rule in case of a mirror match.

People travel long distances and pay a lot of money to go to Nationals and Regionals and Worlds. Even a Store Championship is a whole day and maybe an hour or two drive.

This is just the sane thing to do. You can't just let people get away with improperly looking at an opponent's dial and treating it as if they had done a red maneuver while stressed. That's ridiculous, and allowing people to get away with it once or twice means they can use it as if it was the Phone a Friend option on Who Wants to be a Millionaire.

 

I'm dumbfounded by the opposition to my proposal. The fact that some of you are calling me a cheater just for pointing out some loopholes in the rules/hypothetical rules and suggesting that they be fixed is ridiculous. I don't want this exploit in the game, it should be fixed.

Your fix is gameable. I can accuse someone of picking up the wrong dial if I'm losing. 

I'd be fine with a three strikes rule, but you came out of the gate saying it should be an instant loss. No game is immune to player error. Especially in a long event.

Edited by Koing907

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It happened once to me. When I realized it wasnt my dial I was holding, my dials had been placed and I just had my final doubts (never look at ship placement while grabbing a dial!). I told my opponent straight up what happened, that Isaw his maneuver, that I was sorry and that I would not touch my dials anymore, and allow my opponent to change his dial if he wanted to. He thought it was fair, and he changed it to what turned out to be a better play than the original move anyway.

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I agree with the OP so far.  I can see how someone might consider a game loss to be overboard, but none of the other suggestions do enough.  If the only repercussion for picking up your opponent's dial is that he gets to do the same thing to you, gets to change it, etc., then deciding when to have an 'accident' is simply a matter of doing it when it benefits you and/or when the repercussion is irrelevant.

Instituting a small penalty for an infraction also makes it de facto legal.  This is akin to intentionally fouling a good player in basketball.  If you're willing to take the penalty, and it's to your advantage, you foul him.  It's not considered cheating at all; it's just using the rules to your best advantage, something any good team/player should do.  I don't think that that's something I'd like to see in X-Wing.

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As someone who has both accidentally done this and been on the receiving end of this as well, making it an instant game loss is just not acceptable in my view. Accidents happen and the longer you've been playing the more likely it is for you to make this mistake. The only time this mistake happened with me was when I was playing a Rebel list against an opponent also playing a Rebel list and we were both using the dial upgrade kits.

I can't remember the exact circumstance, but I remember doubting my maneuver and picking up the dial to adjust it, frowning and thinking "That's not the maneuver I set.......oh..." My solution was to do exactly what @Sarcon did. I informed my opponent of the honest mistake and said I would not touch or change any of my dials anymore to restore some form of order to the game.

Granted that was an honest move on my part, and some people are not so honest. Exactly a reason I am opposed to the idea of dials next to cards. Yes, it keeps the board area clear, however, I have had a shifty opponent change a move on me before while the dials were next to cards and I now ask every player to politely put their dials next to their ships. If they refuse to comply it is the only time I get rules lawyer'y and call a judge over to point out that the rules clearly state the dials go next to the ships.

Now with that in mind, there should be a punishment.  The problem is making a punishment that does harm the person who made the mistake but doesn't give so much of an advantage to the opponent so they can attempt to 'force' the situation to occur in hopes of getting a boon. A very hard situation to occur and in the best of circumstances, I think it should be up to a judge ruling. Making it an automatic game loss for something that can be an honest mistake is absurd.

I also do not accept @Turbo Toker's ridiculous straw man argument of "Oh, so it's okay to cheat?" No, no it is not. That is not the point and you know quite well what we have against this and it is not that we allow cheating. The intent is impossible to ascertain, it could be intentional, it could be accidental, the fact that it could be accidental means you can't simply have a punishment as harsh as an instant game loss and need to come up with a method that punishes someone without giving an advantage to either side.

Edited by Ebak

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