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Turbo Toker

Picking up an opponent 's dial and looking at it should result in a game loss.

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I'm listening to episode 61 of Mynock. They interview a Worlds judge.

And the judge was talking about how Wade or Frank or who ever told him that if a dial is looked at, that the opponent gets to look at and change an opponent's dial in response.

This is utterly ridiculous. If that's the actual rule or were to become the actual rule, there is nothing to stop you from purposefully doing it when exchanging dials would benefit you.

I see no option other than an immediate game loss. Players should be more careful, before picking up a dial, take a second to double check.

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A game loss is pretty severe for something that can happen easily and by accident. You could argue that an opponent gaining information about a dial out of sequence is simply adding another layer to the illegal game state created by the unknown information. As judges don't have a lot to go on for floor rules, we often refer to what Frank or FFG OP does at World's. I have seen this particular type of error handled this exact way, or by letting the agreived player select a new unknown maneuver on the revealed dial. I am not sure there is a great way to handle this particular type of infraction, so the attempt to balance may be the best. This is the type of thing that warrants a warning and a second instance would definitely make a game loss reasonable.

Edited by Kyln
Clarity

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14 minutes ago, Kyln said:

A game loss is pretty severe for something that can happen easily and by accident. You could argue that an opponent gaining information about a dial out of sequence is simply adding another layer to the illegal game state created by the unknown information. As judges don't have a lot to go on for floor rules, we often refer to what Frank or FFG OP does at World's. I have seen this particular type of error handled this exact way, and by letting the agreived player select a maneuver on the revealed dial. I am not sure there is a great way to handle this particular type of infraction, so the attempt to balance may be the best. This is the type of thing that warrants a warning and a second instance would definitely make a game loss reasonable.

So it's okay to cheat once?

Fly multiple ships, and on a crucial turn where you outnumber your opponent, you look at their dial. You get to see where their 70 point Ghost is going, and they get to change one of your 4 B-Wing dials.

How would it be proven that this was intentional? That's such a huge gray area.

Edited by Turbo Toker

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15 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

So it's okay to cheat once?

Fly multiple ships, and on a crucial turn where you outnumber your opponent, you look at their dial. You get to see where their 70 point Ghost is going, and they get to change one of your 4 B-Wing dials.

How would it be proven that this was intentional? That's such a huge gray area.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. The aggrevied party should get some sort of benefit, either by gaining balancing information about their opponent, or by being able to select a new maneuver, or some other balancing mechanism. Regardless, the offending player should be given a warning and a future instance should be a game loss, and a third an immediate DQ. 

Proving intention is hard, which is why I would hesitate to call it cheating when it could be easily an honest mistake. A warning for breaking the legal state of the game makes no judgment on intention. Clear cheating would be a DQ and a report to FFG for consideration of permanent ban.

X-Wing is not so large a community that regular cheating disguised as sloppy play would go unnoticed for very long.

 

Edited by Kyln
Clarity

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This is why you keep your dials near the ship cards, why does everything need to go on the game board, you have number things for a reason, flying 10 tie fighters in a epic game? use all the numbers, one on the card, one on the ship base, keep the dials near the cards. That way NOONE touches your stats at all.

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3 minutes ago, Zeoinx said:

This is why you keep your dials near the ship cards, why does everything need to go on the game board, you have number things for a reason, flying 10 tie fighters in a epic game? use all the numbers, one on the card, one on the ship base, keep the dials near the cards. That way NOONE touches your stats at all.

Yep this here is what I do and what everyone should praticing 

 

Dials on ship cards keeps them away from your opponent and stops this problem from occurring 

 

If i dont place them on my ship cards i place them in formation on my side of the table I even tell my opponent which dial is which. It makes life a lot eaiser 

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4 minutes ago, librarian101 said:

Let the aggrieved player select an opponents ship and use the penalty for making a red while stressed, a white 2 straight plus at a zero pilot skill.  

This is what I'm objecting to. You can simply make the determination that it's worth it to see what an opponent is doing.

I have 8 TIE Fighters. You have 2 Shadowcasters. Whoops, I looked at your dial on accident. Guess one of my TIE Fighters has to do a white 2 straight. Aw shucks, I'm sorry dude.

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Looking at the wrong dial absolutely should not result in a game loss. Mistakes can be made. There does have to be some kind of punishment however. I can think of plenty of ways to discourage people from doing this on purpose but I am personally not a fan of getting to change an opponents dial. I don't like being in a situation where I feel like a **** for flying their ship off the board but would be stupid not to. So here are a few simple solutions. The offended player gets to deal one face up damage card to a ship of his choice. Offended player gets to look at all unrevealed opponents dials then choose a new maneuver on his dial. There probably does need to be set guidelines on what to do in that situation though.

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7 minutes ago, X Wing Nut said:

Yep this here is what I do and what everyone should praticing 

 

Dials on ship cards keeps them away from your opponent and stops this problem from occurring 

 

If i dont place them on my ship cards i place them in formation on my side of the table I even tell my opponent which dial is which. It makes life a lot eaiser 

 

I don't like it when people put their dials on their cards. I can't at a glance tell who's gone and what not. And it's easier to keep an eye on board state in general with them next to the ship. Also, it's in the rules they should be next to the ship.

 

Though I might be a bit biased since I had an opponent try to change their dial when they had it on their ship cards early on in my career.

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5 minutes ago, MenaceNsobriety said:

Looking at the wrong dial absolutely should not result in a game loss. Mistakes can be made. There does have to be some kind of punishment however. I can think of plenty of ways to discourage people from doing this on purpose but I am personally not a fan of getting to change an opponents dial. I don't like being in a situation where I feel like a **** for flying their ship off the board but would be stupid not to. So here are a few simple solutions. The offended player gets to deal one face up damage card to a ship of his choice. Offended player gets to look at all unrevealed opponents dials then choose a new maneuver on his dial. There probably does need to be set guidelines on what to do in that situation though.

I would take a damage on a ship to see what my opponent was doing.

There are certain situations where trading dial information would benefit one player.

Edited by Turbo Toker

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1 minute ago, Turbo Toker said:

I would take a damage on a ship to see what my opponent was doing.

There are certain situations where trading dial information would benefit one player.

So you are saying you would purposely cheat to win? I really hope I never play against you. Basically every suggestion I made was intended to have "and you can choose a new maneuver." 

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At first I was going to say someone must hate Bo Shek.

However I see exactly what the OP is frustrated with. Probably why Dial upgrade kits are now a thing because it gives you the option to customize them. I can see the mix up just like with obstacles (which is why I marked the edges of my obstacle tokens with a paint pen). But yeah if that keeps happening then there should be a penalty. Also probably why in faction mirrors dials are required to be placed on the ship card and not on the mat. But it looks like the TO wasn't enforcing that.

Edited by Marinealver

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37 minutes ago, MenaceNsobriety said:

So you are saying you would purposely cheat to win? I really hope I never play against you. Basically every suggestion I made was intended to have "and you can choose a new maneuver." 

I would not do this. But if I was a dishonest person, I would.

I care about the rules of this game. Having a loophole in the rules you can exploit with plausible deniability is not good for the game. That's why I bring this up.

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You can't just make it an immediate loss.  If a Alice knows that if Bob looks at her dial on purpose or by accident she'll immediately win, Alice may decide to weaponize that rule.  Alice could constantly place her dials in an ambiguous location to try to bait Bob into accidentally picking up and looking at her dial.  Alice automatically wins if Bob takes the baited dial.  That would occur often.  And that would be terrible.

Some penalty is appropriate, but you can't create a situation that can be abused by either party.

The bigger issue is that there is really no way to actually police this.  Bob looks at Alice's dial.  Alice calls the judge over.  Alice says Bob looked at my dial, Bob says he didn't.  How the hell is the judge supposed to unravel that mess?  And even worse, if it's just a game loss for looking at another's dial.  Alice is behind and losing, so she just calls the judge over to say Bob looked at her dial.  Bob of course did nothing, but Alice is simply taking the chance that the judge believes her and grants her a free win.

Beware unintended consequences.  Besides, I'm not sure this problem is actually super wide spread.  It happens, but it's almost always by accident and the offending player is usually willing to self penalize themselves.  

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Dials on cards. Cleaner game area. No problem about who activated because this is simply 1, 2, 3. We put a tiny dice over the base if Adaptability +1 (blue), -1 (red) or VI (green). If you go to PS 0 after a Crit tiny black dice. Very small but quite visible (3 or 4 mm).

So you KNOW who activates and when. If you play with money involved better keep your dials near you. And put the dial Face Up near your ship after finishing her Activation.

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This is a terrible idea. Accidentally looking at an opponent's dial is a common mistake players make early on. And it can even happen to experienced players once it a while. It's an honest mistake. Punishing them by making it a game loss is a surefire way to kill interest in the game. I think Wade's current solution is the best one.

Obviously if this happens more than once something should be done.

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One tournament I went to had the rule that if you looked at an opponent's dial, you had to take a shot of castor oil. Whenever a player went to the bathroom, his opponent could look at all his dials and change them at will.

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