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Ywingscum

Kari's special

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@Oloh

1. The point of the question has nothing to do with "golden rules" the point of the question is to figure out if the rule requiring LoS is really implicit if they need to spend ink clarifying it on cards.

2. A ranged attack is a ranged effect that states in its rules that LoS is required.

3. This thread has devolved into nothing better than a yes no screaming match between angry children. And like angry children it needs a timeout until dad gets home.

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1 hour ago, Oloh said:

Between the interpretation of "all" other ranged effects and "certain unspecified" ranged effects, I don't see how anyone can choose the latter with a straight face.  Do "all" ranged attacks need line of sight?

Because only the latter interpretation remains consistent with the game and its component that we have right now.

If ranged "effects" (anything other then attacks) by rule does not require LOS unless stated so specifically, it is consistent since some "effects" says nothing about LOS but some do say LOS is required. No "effect" says LOS is not required.

On the flipside, ALL ranged attacks DO require LOS by rule unless stated otherwise, which is consistent since there are situations where ranged attacks specifically says they do NOT require LOS. No ranged attack specifically says LOS is required.

 

Again, this interpretation remains consistent with how the game is designed and how the cards and abilities is written. Im not saying this is the absolute case, we have to wait for an faq before we know, but there is absolutely no reason to assume otherwise since any other interpretation makes the game and its writing inconsistent. With what we got right now, I cant see how anyone honestly can assume otherwise aside from simply wanting to nerf certain abilities which is a discussion entirely of its own.

 

Edited by Soulless

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In my mind, they simply need to define "ranged effects". 

I do, however, think that ultimately it will be ruled that her ability does NOT require LOS as otherwise her ability is virtually useless. I think they will probably define "ranged effects" as anything requiring range AND they will re-word her ability to not require LOS (and perhaps remove the Carrion Lancer's reminder text). I think that would be the cleanest way to resolve it.

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46 Line of Sight (italicised text is added by me)

To perform a ranged attack or resolve other ranged effects that say in line of sight, a unit must have line of sight to its target.

 

I really believe that the above is how it is supposed to read, as obvious as that would seem.  If they errata anything, it will be to clarify that effects only need line of sight if they specify that they need line of sight, either by rewording the above line or adding an additional bullet point.

More likely, they will just have a FAQ.

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Kari's ability is not at all useless assuming it uses LOS. It just requires more thought and tactics! In RW, you target LOS in a straight line which can be from any CORNER of the FRONT EDGE of your tray to any part of an enemy tray within the FIRING ARC which extends all the way to the edge of the table. So when you engage your Kari, you just need to make sure her front edge is squared up so that the corner of her tray is aligned with the side of the enemy formation. Then anything in a 45' arc from that corner is a legal target for her ability. Only in the middle of a 3/4-tray wide formation does Kari lose any targets to attack. Lastly, this, as we have so elegantly discussed, is NOT a ranged attack, so Kari can target units she is engaged with other than the target of her melee attack. Maneuver two enemies close together, charge one and shift over to touch the other with a flank corner, and its knife time! She is -still- a knife-throwing maniac, she just may have a large section of the field blocked by the enemy formation and the occasional rock.

Edited by drkpnthr

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2 hours ago, drkpnthr said:

Kari's ability is not at all useless assuming it uses LOS. It just requires more thought and tactics! In RW, you target LOS in a straight line which can be from any CORNER of the FRONT EDGE of your tray to any part of an enemy tray within the FIRING ARC which extends all the way to the edge of the table. So when you engage your Kari, you just need to make sure her front edge is squared up so that the corner of her tray is aligned with the side of the enemy formation. Then anything in a 45' arc from that corner is a legal target for her ability. Only in the middle of a 3/4-tray wide formation does Kari lose any targets to attack. Lastly, this, as we have so elegantly discussed, is NOT a ranged attack, so Kari can target units she is engaged with other than the target of her melee attack. Maneuver two enemies close together, charge one and shift over to touch the other with a flank corner, and its knife time! She is -still- a knife-throwing maniac, she just may have a large section of the field blocked by the enemy formation and the occasional rock.

This isn't accurate.  If someone is based up to your front, even one tray, they occupy all the space along your front edge.  Mathematically impossible for line of sight to be drawn out.

Edited by rowdyoctopus

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25 minutes ago, rowdyoctopus said:

This isn't accurate.  If someone is based up to your front, even one tray, they occupy all the space along your front edge.  Mathematically impossible for like e of sight to be drawn out.

Correct.

 

However. Kari has this little ability upgrade called Wraithstep.

 

She can also be flanked, or engage along a flank and face to one side.

 

Requiring LOS wouldn't make the ability useless, just particularly tricky.

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Mathematically speaking it is still possible. Since points on the firing line itself are still in line of sight, and the corners of a tray are on the firing line you can draw a 45 degree arc off the corner that is both inside the firing arc and will not cross the unit you're engaged with.

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59 minutes ago, GoblinGuide said:

Mathematically speaking it is still possible. Since points on the firing line itself are still in line of sight, and the corners of a tray are on the firing line you can draw a 45 degree arc off the corner that is both inside the firing arc and will not cross the unit you're engaged with.

It's not a 1d line, it's a 3d template. It doesn't fit.

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2 minutes ago, Corrinmana said:

It's not a 1d line, it's a 3d template. It doesn't fit.

Rule 64.4, first bullet: "When measuring, players use a single edge of the range ruler; the width of the ruler is irrelevant."

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So, where is everyone reading the rule that states that if an ability uses the range ruler it is a ranged attack or ranged effect?

the only places where I've seen definitions for melee and ranged abilities are:

1.1- If a unit's ability is preceded by a melee icon, it can use that ability when performing a melee attack action.

1.2- If a unit's ability is preceded by a ranged icon, it can use that ability when performing a ranged attack action.

To clarify when using surges:

The bullet point in 1.3- abilities preceded by a surge icon are associated with either a melee or ranged icon. To use such an ability, a unit must spend the appropriate number of surges while performing the corresponding attack action.

4.3- Units perform actions during the activation phase. Each icon represents a different action as follows: Melee attack (melee icon), ranged attack (ranged icon).

 

To summarize:  An ability is melee or ranged based off of its icon. Surge abilities are linked to an icon and can only be used when performing the attack action that matches that icon. The actions you take are defined as melee or ranged based on the icon you select on the command dial.

Kari's surge ability to preceded by a melee icon. Melee icons specify that a surge ability is used as part of a melee attack. Melee attacks do not require line of sight. Therefore, Kari's surge ability does not require line of sight.

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3 minutes ago, DaShamrockKid said:

So, where is everyone reading the rule that states that if an ability uses the range ruler it is a ranged attack or ranged effect?

the only places where I've seen definitions for melee and ranged abilities are:

1.1- If a unit's ability is preceded by a melee icon, it can use that ability when performing a melee attack action.

1.2- If a unit's ability is preceded by a ranged icon, it can use that ability when performing a ranged attack action.

To clarify when using surges:

The bullet point in 1.3- abilities preceded by a surge icon are associated with either a melee or ranged icon. To use such an ability, a unit must spend the appropriate number of surges while performing the corresponding attack action.

4.3- Units perform actions during the activation phase. Each icon represents a different action as follows: Melee attack (melee icon), ranged attack (ranged icon).

 

To summarize:  An ability is melee or ranged based off of its icon. Surge abilities are linked to an icon and can only be used when performing the attack action that matches that icon. The actions you take are defined as melee or ranged based on the icon you select on the command dial.

Kari's surge ability to preceded by a melee icon. Melee icons specify that a surge ability is used as part of a melee attack. Melee attacks do not require line of sight. Therefore, Kari's surge ability does not require line of sight.

Abilities are not the same thing as effects.  The line of sight rule says "ranged effects", not range abilities.  Ranged effects, while not explicitly defined, are presumed to be effects that use the range ruler.

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2 hours ago, Obscene said:

IMO, as the person that originally led the charge for Kari requiring LOS as RAW, is that the line of sight section in the RRG will get reworded in a FAQ.

I hate to say it, but at this point I don't want a FAQ so much as I want a revised Rules Reference. :(

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Maybe the focus should be on verbiage that address' the Front Edge and range effects. 

FFG made a clear distinction between LoS and LoF, two things that have more often than not been synonymous with each other...In other games.

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23 hours ago, rowdyoctopus said:

Abilities are not the same thing as effects.  The line of sight rule says "ranged effects", not range abilities.  Ranged effects, while not explicitly defined, are presumed to be effects that use the range ruler.

literally rule 1:

"Abilities are game effects..."

 

more verbose:

"Abilities are game effects found on unit cards and upgrade cards. Each ability describes the game effect it provides.

1.1 If a unit’s ability is preceded by a melee (M) icon, it can use that ability when performing a melee attack (M) action.

1.2 If a unit’s ability is preceded by a ranged (R) icon, it can use that ability when performing a ranged attack (R) action."

 

through replacement (ability=effect, which is defined in rule 1), we can get

1.1 If a unit’s effect is preceded by a melee (M) icon, it can use that effect when performing a melee attack (M) action.

1.2 If a unit’s effect is preceded by a ranged (R) icon, it can use that effect when performing a ranged attack (R) action."

 

Kari's ability has a melee icon in front of it. It is a melee effect.

Reanimate Archers' ability has a ranged icon in front of it. It is a ranged effect.

Edited by skotothalamos

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15 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

literally rule 1:

"Abilities are game effects..."

 

more verbose:

"Abilities are game effects found on unit cards and upgrade cards. Each ability describes the game effect it provides.

1.1 If a unit’s ability is preceded by a melee (M) icon, it can use that ability when performing a melee attack (M) action.

1.2 If a unit’s ability is preceded by a ranged (R) icon, it can use that ability when performing a ranged attack (R) action."

 

through replacement (ability=effect, which is defined in rule 1), we can get

1.1 If a unit’s effect is preceded by a melee (M) icon, it can use that effect when performing a melee attack (M) action.

1.2 If a unit’s effect is preceded by a ranged (R) icon, it can use that effect when performing a ranged attack (R) action."

 

Kari's ability has a melee icon in front of it. It is a melee effect.

Reanimate Archers' ability has a ranged icon in front of it. It is a ranged effect.

Abilities are game effects, effects are not abilities.  They are not interchangeable.  

Even if they were, it never labels those effects as melee or ranged, it simply says they are used when an attack of the requisite type happens.  That doesn't make them effects of the requisite type.

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7 minutes ago, rowdyoctopus said:

Abilities are game effects, effects are not abilities.  They are not interchangeable.  

Even if they were, it never labels those effects as melee or ranged, it simply says they are used when an attack of the requisite type happens.  That doesn't make them effects of the requisite type.

I never turned an effect into an ability. I simply applied the rule "Abilities are game effects" and replaced. Interchangeability implies it goes in both directions, which, I agree, is not true. But an ability is most definitely an effect, and so "effect" can be substituted anywhere the word "ability" appears.

to your second point, we have:

1.4: "For each skill (Sk) action a unit performs, it can resolve one ability that is preceded by a skill (Sk) icon."

and

83.4: "One skill (Sk) ability can be resolved once when a unit performs a skill (Sk) action."

which sets a precedent by referring to an "ability that is preceded by a skill icon" as a "skill ability."

and abilities are effects. Rule 1.

so there's a skill effect. Anyone want to bet on how it works for the other icons?

Edited by skotothalamos

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1 hour ago, skotothalamos said:

I never turned an effect into an ability. I simply applied the rule "Abilities are game effects" and replaced. Interchangeability implies it goes in both directions, which, I agree, is not true. But an ability is most definitely an effect, and so "effect" can be substituted anywhere the word "ability" appears.

to your second point, we have:

1.4: "For each skill (Sk) action a unit performs, it can resolve one ability that is preceded by a skill (Sk) icon."

and

83.4: "One skill (Sk) ability can be resolved once when a unit performs a skill (Sk) action."

which sets a precedent by referring to an "ability that is preceded by a skill icon" as a "skill ability."

and abilities are effects. Rule 1.

so there's a skill effect. Anyone want to bet on how it works for the other icons?

The rules for Skill abilities never say skill effect.  They also have no bearing on Melee Abilities, Ranged Abilities, or any other game effects.

Ranged abilities are abilities that are used when making a ranged attack.  They can be ranged effects, they might not be ranged effects.  Same thing for melee.  We don't have a strict definition for ranged effects, but in the context of the line of sight rules and the range rules, it would appear to be any effect that uses the range ruler.

Edited by rowdyoctopus

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Just now, rowdyoctopus said:

The rules for Skill abilities never say skill effect.  They also have no bearing on Melee Abilities, Ranged Abilities, or any other game effects.

Ranged abilities are abilities that are used when making a ranged attack.  They can be ranged effects, they might not be ranged effects.  Same thing for melee.  We don't have a strict definition for ranged effects, but in the context of the line of sight rules and the range rules, it would appear to be any effect that uses range.

Abilities are game effects. Please process this information.

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53 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

Abilities are game effects. Please process this information.

We understand, what you are not grasping is that, just because an ability has to be trriggered in melee or ranged combat or by a skill action does not mean that it is a melee effect. The rules are very clear on this. "If a unit's ability is preceded by a melee icon, it can use that ability when performing a melee attack action."

That is rule 1.1, 1.2 and 1.4 go on to say the same thing about ranged attacks and skill actions. This does not say that the icon determines the type of effect the ability is. What it says is when the abilities can be used.

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You have to define terms the way that the rulebook defines them. Like it or not, the only way the rulebook defines whether something is melee or ranged is the icon on the card.

 

Also, using an undefined term that doesn't appear within the section of the rules where the definitions of the games terms are given isnt proper interpretation technique. Undefined terms are given meaning by defined terms. You cant just make up your own definitions.

 

It may not be the intended meaning, and it may get changed later, but currently within the rules kari's special is melee not ranged. That means it doesnt require line of sight.

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1 hour ago, skotothalamos said:

Abilities are game effects. Please process this information.

So is movement.  So is attacking.  So it shifting.  So is reforming.  So is a ton of other things.  When you say abilities are game effects, what that means is when a rule says "game effects" you can substitute "abilities" there.  You can't turn it around and substitute "game effects" where it says "abilities".

And before you say it, the line of fire rule says "ranged effects", which is a specific type of game effect.  Just like abilities are a specific type of game effect.  You cannot interchange them.

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