Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Ywingscum

Kari's special

Recommended Posts

Hahahaha.  Hello can of worms!

Based on the fact that we have multiple abilities that say the do need line of sight, and we have  those that lack that language, she does not need line of sight.  Some have taken the line of sight rule in the RR to be absolute in delineating that ALL ranged effects require line of sight, but this is not the case.  She will probably get an entry in the FAQ just to solidify things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The jury is still out on that one. Some people interpret the line of sight rule to mean that all ranged effects require line of sight unless stated otherwise, while other people think that ranged effects don't require line of sight unless the rule says so.

Many of us have sent in a rules request and are still awaiting a response.

For what it's worth, demo games considered her surge ability to not require line of sight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, druchii7 said:

Notice that it is not a RANGED ATTACK and doesn't follow it rules (including no restriction aditional to the text).

Correct. But it is a ranged effect. The Rules Reference entry for Line of Sight (46) says:

"To perform a ranged attack ( ? ) or resolve other ranged effects, a unit must have line of sight to its target."

Because of the ambiguities of the English language, "other ranged effects" might refer to "all other" or "some other." It isn't clear from the rules.

You can try to argue that because the Carrion Lancer's ability says that it requires line of sight, that effects that do not require line of sight do not require it, but if RR-46 is interpreted to mean all ranged effects, then such additional text is not mandatory -- it is only reminder text on some abilities.

I think you're interpretation that it does not require line of sight is the intended way to play Kari, but I don't believe we can rule that way from the rules as written with 100% certainty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So if she can hit anyone 360degrees engaged or not, this is tremendously OP. If it requires line of sight, and can only use the ability in melee, no one can be targeted.  So is it in the ark, but not line of sight?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to add another layer of complexity to the issue, what about when she is used as a unit upgrade?  Her card still has the same ability so she would use the entire units LoS, if it requires LoS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

units obstruct line of sight though, so that means her ability would be 100% useless w/o the upgrade to ignore line of sight if it has to be in arc
You cant attack sideways either so if she gets flanked, she cant attack to generate the surges (unless i missed something)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Vineheart01 said:

units obstruct line of sight though, so that means her ability would be 100% useless w/o the upgrade to ignore line of sight if it has to be in arc
You cant attack sideways either so if she gets flanked, she cant attack to generate the surges (unless i missed something)

You did. You can totally attack someone you're engaged with to the side or even behind.

 

You lose your rank re-rolls IF the enemy's front is to your side or back, but you still get them if you are side to side, or side to back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also keep in mind if it does require Los she can still sometimes surge while fighting front.  Example Kari and a single lancer fighting front to front.  Her Los does extend out in triangle wedges to both sides.  So vs larger formations if she was to one side she would then have a single triangle wedges to that side.  So needing Los won't totally kill the ability

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Vineheart01 said:

You cant attack sideways either...

Yes you can.

 

1 hour ago, Tvayumat said:

For the record, I hate her ability at the moment.

If it doesn't require LOS, it's insane.

It's two damage if you roll surge if there's a unit in range on; as an ability on someone who costs as much as a small unit. That's not that big a deal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you play the learning scenario or play skirmishes, Kari is definitely OP. Either the rulebook or the learning to play guide even mention that in skirmish, heroes are way more powerful. They aren't outnumbered as much, and the unit sizes are small enough for them to carve up. Once you move into 200pt games (or larger), the effectiveness of heroes diminishes a bit (to something that feels more appropriate). Kari is awesome, but try facing her in a full-sized game. She becomes less godlike.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Corrinmana said:

Yes you can.

 

It's two damage if you roll surge if there's a unit in range on; as an ability on someone who costs as much as a small unit. That's not that big a deal.

Two damage per surge, with a surge modifier and a white/blue combo.

Kari spits out 10 damage and deletes carrion lancers with hilarious regularity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, JasonGlass said:

If you play the learning scenario or play skirmishes, Kari is definitely OP. Either the rulebook or the learning to play guide even mention that in skirmish, heroes are way more powerful. They aren't outnumbered as much, and the unit sizes are small enough for them to carve up. Once you move into 200pt games (or larger), the effectiveness of heroes diminishes a bit (to something that feels more appropriate). Kari is awesome, but try facing her in a full-sized game. She becomes less godlike.

Agreed.

On a full size table with terrain I was better able to corner Kari with Ardus, and she doesn't do so well one on one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Tvayumat said:

Agreed.

On a full size table with terrain I was better able to corner Kari with Ardus, and she doesn't do so well one on one.

Absolutely right. You have to remember to engage her with a unit that can kill her. If you engage her with weenies, they'll only ding her while she slaughters your heavy hitters at range. I learned that the hard way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

units obstruct line of sight though, so that means her ability would be 100% useless w/o the upgrade to ignore line of sight if it has to be in arc
You cant attack sideways either so if she gets flanked, she cant attack to generate the surges (unless i missed something)

Heartseeker is ranged attacks only.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As its written, its clear as day that LOS is not required.

The RR46 entry "...or resolve other ranged effects..." doesn't apply to every effect dealing with range, it only states that there ARE situations aside from ranged attacks that require LOS. Ranged attacks ALWAYS require LOS (unless special rules or upgrades apply) but other effects can vary and if one requires LOS it will state so in its rules.

 

Thats how I interpret it, can't say thats how FFG intended it. But IF Karis special requires LOS based on the RR46 entry, then so should also Ardus special...Which makes absolutely no sense at all.

 

Edit:

A question though. Do Karis special require 1 surge to activate, and then additional surges to cause damage? Its cost is a surge symbol and a "+". I thought this was the case at least.

If so, maybe the ability seems a bit more balanced. 2 surges will cause 2 damage, fair I think.

Edited by Soulless

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just want to add yet another line on this.

 

The carrion lancer has an ability that also states to "choose" an enemy unit but this time it states it require LOS. Karis card doesn't, so her ability doesn't.

Also, if embedded in a unit as a figure upgrade, range and LOS is measured from the unit, not the actual upgrade tray. Because even though they are represented by a figure and/or tray, they are still only an upgrade to that unit, just as any other upgrade, and apply to the entire unit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Soulless The Surge+ ability means you can spend multiple surges in a single instance of resolving the effect. It lets Kari put more than 2 damage on an enemy figure. If it were not surge+, she could do maximum of 2 damage per use, meaning she could still mow down Reanimates (dealing multiple bouts of 2 damage against 1 defense), but would never be able to overcome a Carrion Lancer's defense value with her surge ability.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

@Soulless The Surge+ ability means you can spend multiple surges in a single instance of resolving the effect. It lets Kari put more than 2 damage on an enemy figure. If it were not surge+, she could do maximum of 2 damage per use, meaning she could still mow down Reanimates (dealing multiple bouts of 2 damage against 1 defense), but would never be able to overcome a Carrion Lancer's defense value with her surge ability.

 

Ah right, Im reading the surge rules right now and that seems true. Too bad, if it was 1 surge to activate and then one or more additional to damage it might have been better balanced.

Still, my vote is that her ability does not require LOS, its consistent with the rest of the rules and cards. I just hope FFG realise that its okay to change and "retrofit" content if it becomes too unbalanced, instead of just keep adding more stuff to be used as counters to old broken stuff...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...