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AllWingsStandyingBy

So, we're just getting "Empire Strikes Back 2" then, huh? Sad.

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5 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Bingo, as the prequels (most notably III) are key to understanding, specifically, Kylo Ren.

 

1 minute ago, Alexhurlbut said:

That's your CHOICE. I'll do what I feel is good for me to watch. ;)

Choosing not to understand. We've been seeing a lot of that lately.

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10 hours ago, Sekac said:

Oh. Huh. Weird. I've seen it twice and missed that both times. Oh well. Plenty of other inconsistencies to focus on :)

Be my guest. I am sure they will be terribly well thought and not nitpicking at all.

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On 4/22/2017 at 11:31 AM, RampancyTW said:

People really have rose-colored glasses with the original movies.  I LOVE them, and the universe, but the movies themselves are guilty of a lot of the things people deride TFA for.

I encourage everyone to re-watch TFA, then re-watch ANH.  And to re-watch the space battle in RotJ.  Things you'll notice:

No real respect for scale.  Imperial ships immediately scout Dantooine.  Ships travel very quickly from one system to another.  The main characters find everything they need in a very small portion of a humongous space station and magically find their way back to the hangar bay despite running desperately through hallways for much of the prior sequences.

Unusual combat expertise.  Luke has never really been in a lethal confrontation before.  He gets his butt kicked immediately at a bar after failing to sense any sort of danger... immediately after getting his butt kicked by sand people, again after utterly failing to sense his immediate danger.  He then flies with solid instincts and above-average competence in his Death Star assault. The extended cut has a (great-- not sure why it didn't make the original cut!) scene where Luke and Biggs catch up and it's explained that Luke is a great pilot has flown a similarly designed ship before, but this is totally lacking from the original.

Chewbacca being treated like a total non-factor.  He receives no real respect or recognition from anybody the whole time.  Nobody takes him seriously.  Leia barely acknowledges him as a sentient being.

Feats of absurd piloting skill.  I thought TFA's treatment of Poe was a little much, but there's at least one scene in RotJ where Wedge is just sort of casually one-shotting Interceptors while on his comms.  It's much more brief, and it looks pretty relaxed from his cockpit view, but an external view and longer shot would probably look pretty similar to Poe's TFA shot.

In summary: TFA was absolutely flawed, despite my immense enjoyment of the film.  The same goes for the originals, though, and in much the same ways.  Don't let nostalgia cloud your ability to view things objectively.

I agree that ANH is not a very good film.  I think the beginning scenes (Tantive IV, the moisture farm, Mos Eisley, the Falcon) are all pretty strong, as is the final scene (Yavin Base, Battle of Yavin), but the whole bit with the Rebels on the Death Star is too much for me, for many of the same reasons you've noted (even if we assume that it's all an elaborate ruse where Tarkin/Vader have ordered the Storm Troopers to let them escape so as to track the Falcon).  There are also issues with the the rest of the OT, of course, though I think ESB and RotJ function much more smoothy and plausibly than ANH.

While nostalgia is certainly a factor in the special place held by the OT in general, I don't think nostalgia is the only reason one might forgive issues with the OT while critiquing the very same issues in TFA.  The OT was shot 30-40 years ago.  It can be "forgiven" for some things on account of that, and ANH had a relatively small budget with an unknown source material and an open question about whether or not it would find fans.  On the contrary, the TFA had a mega budget, a well-developed and established world, a fanatical fan base, and the luxury of 40 additional years of developments in visual effects.  Given that, I think one can chastise TFA for some of the same lazy sins we might be willing to overlook for a film that is 40 years older, because by this point they should have been able to do so much better with all the lessons that have been learned and all the money and support that were available.  So while nostalgia is certainly a factor, I don't think it's the only one.


That being said, I think the only three "good" Star Wars films are ESB, RotJ, and RO.  After that, in  my opinion it's a toss up where TPM, AotC, RotS, ANH, and TFA all shake out in the rankings.  Each of them do some things well but suffer from their own substantial flaws and shortcomings. 

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The argument for ANH as a good/bad movie is mostly irrelevant, because it is done with whatever time lenses the writer/speaker prefers to use. ANH was a good product of its time and it was for a decent chunk of time. For nowadays standards it can be seen as an average movie, but that's like saying Doom (1993) is not a good game because the gameplay and/or graphics don't hold nowaday standards.

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A New Hope is an incredible film; it lifted the adventure blockbuster genre, if it existed at all, to a new level. The film's influence is hard to overestimate. It's a modern myth that offers several levels of understanding and as such a blend of commercial product and art that is quite rare. In addition, the visual quality has aged very well.

Honestly, I don't see why anyone, let alone a Star Wars fan of any kind, would call A New Hope "not a very good film".

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Speaking of flaws in Star Wars movies, what about the Falcon traveling from one system to another without hyperdrive, within a timespan that doesn't involve everyone dying of old age?#

Or the obvious continuity mistake RotJ starts with?

I love Star Wars because wether flawed or not, it entertains me, sometimes despite, sometimes because of the flaws.

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1 hour ago, DreadStar said:

Be my guest. I am sure they will be terribly well thought and not nitpicking at all.

Wow, lot of hostility here. My bad. Rogue one is perfect in every way.

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2 hours ago, Alexhurlbut said:

And you don't know what will happen when the superlaser is turned on a Gas Giant. For a point of reference; if Jupiter had gotten just a bit more mass, or a lot of energy it could have become a Star.

...Which would have ended the Rebellion with one swift stroke, right? If the planet their base orbits became a star?

Of COURSE A New Hope had flaws. All the movies do, even Empire (Just how much time did Luke train and how did the Falcon go to Bespin if they 'had no hyperdrive'?). There are almost certainly good in universe reasons for these flaws to exist. 

But I particularly despise is the fanbase's tendency to ignore any possibility of those good reasons to hate TFA and Rogue One, while giving the older movies a free pass. Most of the haters decided to hate TFA long before they even bought the ticket, and only sat through it to cement that prejudice.

Seems stupid to me, not WANTING to enjoy something so hard that you won't even give it a half-chance, but that's fanboys for you.

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19 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Wow, lot of hostility here. My bad. Rogue one is perfect in every way.

Yep, it is a pretty well executed movie within the framework given to the director. About the hostility, well even though i don't find that hostile, in my excuse i had read plenty of "inconsistencies" like the one you wrote before, so i am kinda bitter about its criticism since i have yet to read something consistent and not just a matter of taste veiled as something else.

@iamfanboy  Completely agree, happy to see i am not alone in this world ;p

Edited by DreadStar

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3 minutes ago, DreadStar said:

Yep, it is a pretty well executed movie within the framework given to the director. About the hostility, well even though i don't find that hostile, in my excuse i had read plenty of "inconsistencies" like the one you wrote before, so i am kinda bitter about its criticism since i have yet to read something consistent and not just a matter of taste veiled as something else.

But isn't your stance on the movie a matter of taste veiled as something else? Isn't everyone's opinion of every movie?

If your stance is that it's a great movie (matter of taste), and all criticisms against it come from poor thinking and nitpickery (excuse to dismiss contrary opinions), then you're framing your opinion as truth, and other opinions as wrong. 

FWIW, I overall liked Rogue One but I've definitely got some opinions about where they went wrong. Much of the character development was stagnant for most of the movie and rushed all at once. Jyn went from ambivalent about the Rebellion pre-Eadu, to mad at the Rebellion for killing her father just after Eadu, to willing to die for the Rebellion as soon as they got back to the base.

I also really disagreed with their handling of Tarkin, and the extremely tropey defeat of Krennick—monologueing long enough for the presumed dead hero to shoot him in the back just before he pulls the trigger. :rolleyes:

None of my opinions on it ruined the movie for me but there was plenty of lazy writing and it could have been better.

 

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On 4/21/2017 at 2:58 PM, Ken at Sunrise said:

This is an interesting thought.  I've thought, and said, that part of what so many liked about Star Wars, the original movie, and Empire was that we were learning about the Star Wars Universe.  In Star Wars, the original movie, you see a Jedi for the first time, a light saber for the first time, mind control, etc. I can honestly recall the first time the audience realized that little green pesky dude was Yoda.  There was mystery, and a universe we were exploring to find it.

I think you're right.  Rogue One/Star Wars followed by Empire/Jedi would be a great way to watch the movies.  Starting with a follower in the old religion but no evidence of it anywhere and nothing buy hope to go on.  Then Star Wars, the original movie, with it's new name 'A New Hope' has meaning from the beginning of the movie.

You've given me a new perspective.  Thanks,

 

On 4/22/2017 at 7:24 AM, Verlaine said:

This is partially an illusion. The film suggests that what you is actually happening in a huge galaxy, but it shows very little. It doesn't actually matter what a womprat is, what the Techno Union is, how Bocce sounds, or why there is not a lot in the Anoat system. The point is that the characters are apparently familiar with these things and they give us the appearance of a larger world. But you don't really experience that larger world.

It is not an illusion that we learn what the Jedi could do and about the force as the movies progressed in the order they were released. 

I have no idea what you're disagreeing with.  Honestly I don't think I'm being clear at all or no one is reading my posts before disagreeing.

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3 minutes ago, Ken at Sunrise said:

 

It is not an illusion that we learn what the Jedi could do and about the force as the movies progressed in the order they were released. 

I have no idea what you're disagreeing with.  Honestly I don't think I'm being clear at all or no one is reading my posts before disagreeing.

You stated that when watching the Star Wars movies, you're learning about its universe. But fact of the matter is that you're not  really learning a lot.

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For something to be inconsistent, it must not be able to be consistent. But let's not argue semantics.

A person can criticize something as inconsistent rather than not up to his tastes as a way to uplift his opinion as factual and objective, rather than subjective. If i state that i like the movie and you don't, we are both giving subjective opinions. If you say the movie is inconsistent because X, and X can be objectively  challenged and i explain why X is not Z, and then you acknowledge it but still say that the movie is inconsistent, it's understandable that i find it unlikely. Specially if it's something that only required you to pay some attention.

And i am not challenging people's opinion on wether they found it good or bad, i am challenging the inconsistencies they find as a product of them not liking the movie rather than being truthfully an inconsistent script, and i am pointing out that i had read plenty of times this kind of assertions as a mask to veil a pure subjective opinion. 

About the character development, i disagree and i could explain later why if you are interested, but atleast we are now showcasing it as a taste or how we "read" the movie rather than objective inconsistency in the script or the edition proccess. Well, except when you call it lazy writing, because reasons. Storytelling will always require an open mind from the viewer to have a positive somewhat naive read rather than a negativistic realist one. Most of your complaints can be explained or justified in this vein, but that's largely irrelevant, if you didn't like those parts it's fine, what it's not fine is to call them inconsistent because they weren't how you expected them to be,(specially what you are talking about Tarkin, i can go on about how i understood Jyn's development, or the one most people tend to think as a flat character, the pilot Bodhi).

And if i challenged you to show up more inconsistencies, because if you missed how they got into the shuttle in the first place, and instead of checking it out later on you jumped into the conclussion that it was bad editing, it is understandable to question if you gave it an honest look. No offense intended, but rather an honest look from an outsider's perspective.

Edited by DreadStar

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13 minutes ago, DreadStar said:

Well, except when you call it lazy writing, because reasons.

Maybe it wasn't laziness. But using a trope (Krennick's defeat) copied and pasted directly from many many other movies comes across as laziness. Maybe they had a non-lazy reason for thinking "you know that scene from A, B, C, D,...X, Y, and Z? Let's put that exact same scene in our movie too." It's such a well-established trope that other movies have been spoofing it for decades, yet they threw it in anyway. 

It might not have been laziness, but it is (to me) indistinguishable from laziness.

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2 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Speaking of flaws in Star Wars movies, what about the Falcon traveling from one system to another without hyperdrive, within a timespan that doesn't involve everyone dying of old age?#

Or the obvious continuity mistake RotJ starts with?

I love Star Wars because wether flawed or not, it entertains me, sometimes despite, sometimes because of the flaws.

 

Backup Hyperdrive. It's also how in TPM the naboo yatch got to Tatooine in spite of a damaged main hyperdrive core. The backup is still much slower though, but it's a backup that's a real lifesaver.

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1 hour ago, Verlaine said:

You stated that when watching the Star Wars movies, you're learning about its universe. But fact of the matter is that you're not  really learning a lot.

Yes that is what I said.  In Star Wars, the original movie, you did see for the first time: Jedi mind control, light saber, Obi Wan disappearing and sensing the death of millions.  It was a new movie about a new theme so unless you read something elsewhere, this was the first time you saw anything Star Wars.  In The Empire Strikes Back we see force telekinesis for the first time and force ghosts, etc.

I think you misread what I said or didn't read all of the posts.  That's okay and I can see it is easy to get confused and miss what I said.  Of course we don't know lot; I never said we did.  There's a lot that went on in the Star Wars universe, but there's a lot we got from the movies as well.  And my point, if you had read all of my posts on this thread, was that this learning was what many of us loved about Star Wars, the mystery unraveling.  Perhaps that isn't your cup of tea and the movie wasn't detailed enough.  That's okay.  But a lot of what we saw was a new mystery discovered.

Or to put it another way, there is no objective delineation of 'a lot' yet you disagree without know the context.  I hope this helps.

Edited by Ken at Sunrise
spell'in an grammer

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6 minutes ago, Alexhurlbut said:

Backup Hyperdrive. It's also how in TPM the naboo yatch got to Tatooine in spite of a damaged main hyperdrive core. The backup is still much slower though, but it's a backup that's a real lifesaver.

Never mentioned in the movie, though, it is just something you have to accept as viewer. I don't mind explaining things after the fact at all, but if we allow it for the OT, as we do, that courtesy should also be expanded to stuff produced afterwards.

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7 minutes ago, Ken at Sunrise said:

There's a lot that went on in the Star Wars universe, but there's a lot we got from the movies as well. 

Maybe you missed the word 'partially', which was in my post. I hope this helps.

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Can we all just agree that the Clone Wars TV show had some of the best story telling in all the canon material?

Not only did it give the characters and planets actual arcs, it gave us a sense of how and why Anakin became what he was. Not to mention the fact that it really fleshed out the galaxy as a whole and showed us that the conflict was more complex than: Jedi/Republic good - CIS bad.

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4 minutes ago, benbaxter said:

Can we all just agree that the Clone Wars TV show had some of the best story telling in all the canon material?

Not only did it give the characters and planets actual arcs, it gave us a sense of how and why Anakin became what he was. Not to mention the fact that it really fleshed out the galaxy as a whole and showed us that the conflict was more complex than: Jedi/Republic good - CIS bad.

While there are definitely some arcs I wish hadn't been done, overall, the Clone Wars did so much to restore my opinion of Anakin, deepened my respect for Obi-Wan, and gave me a plethora of new characters who are just as important to me as Luke or Han. 

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