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AllWingsStandyingBy

So, we're just getting "Empire Strikes Back 2" then, huh? Sad.

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2 hours ago, Frimmel said:

Are you sure about that? There are those fans who are vociferously defend the pile of crap that is TFA. When you have fans that will stand up and defend that kind of awful I'd think you've got some pretty good fans. 

And are you really a "bad fan" for expecting creators not to deliver lazy scripts and shoddily directed and edited movies? 

I'm owed a far better effort than what they've given me in TFA and what has been teased in TLJ. I'm owed far more than re-hashing the films that made me a fan if they want me to buy movie tickets. 

They owe you nothing. Caveat Emptor. 

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1 hour ago, GrimmyV said:

If I pay them expecting a good movie, game, book, and ect. Then I am indeed owed at least something of passing entertainment value, not to mention something consistent with the over all narrative of the 'brand' Star Wars.

No. You are owed nothing. You don't have some right as a consumer to the Star Wars YOU like (fill in your flavor of SW here). 

You give them money, expecting entertainment they deliver a product you may or may not like. . If you cannot accept the risk your entertainment dollar investment might not pan out, then too bad for you. 

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1 hour ago, BlodVargarna said:

No. You are owed nothing. You don't have some right as a consumer to the Star Wars YOU like (fill in your flavor of SW here). 

You give them money, expecting entertainment they deliver a product you may or may not like. . If you cannot accept the risk your entertainment dollar investment might not pan out, then too bad for you. 

If I walk out of the movie and demand my movie back, guess what, I get it back.  Or a free movie at some other time.  Either way I am compensated for a less than satisfactory experience or product.  If a toy doesn't perform as advertised or breaks because of poor construction you get compensated.  If a book isn't consistent or doesn't follow through with the promise of being 'entertaining' then, well, usually there's not much you can do,  but word of mouth can ruin sales.  

 

Anyway, when a busness produces a product or provides a service there is an expectation of customer satisfaction.  As long as the customer expects a reasonable amount of quality then the business should provide that quality.  It doesn't matter if it's Star Wars, Kraft Mac n cheese or Steve Madden shoes, expectations matter and Unsatisfied customers get their money back more often than is realized, it seems.

 

btw I've forgotten what this thread was all about.  I've thoroughly enjoyed the last two SW movies and thought TPM and RotS were at least passable with some good

or even great moments, and the OT is great despite RotJ being uneven.  So what are we arguing about?  Certainly not my personal tastes.  I was trying to speak to generalities and objective artistic criteria.

Edited by GrimmyV

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3 hours ago, LunarSol said:

[...]Rogue One very much adds an Empire to A New Hope and because of that I don't want to rank it the same way.  Instead I just feel that it makes RO/ANH the strongest SW film, with Empire/Jedi a close second[...]

This is an interesting thought.  I've thought, and said, that part of what so many liked about Star Wars, the original movie, and Empire was that we were learning about the Star Wars Universe.  In Star Wars, the original movie, you see a Jedi for the first time, a light saber for the first time, mind control, etc. I can honestly recall the first time the audience realized that little green pesky dude was Yoda.  There was mystery, and a universe we were exploring to find it.

I think you're right.  Rogue One/Star Wars followed by Empire/Jedi would be a great way to watch the movies.  Starting with a follower in the old religion but no evidence of it anywhere and nothing buy hope to go on.  Then Star Wars, the original movie, with it's new name 'A New Hope' has meaning from the beginning of the movie.

You've given me a new perspective.  Thanks,

Edited by Ken at Sunrise
spell'in an grammer

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5 hours ago, KryatDragon said:

Wow...

I think someone said it a few pages earlier...

Star Wars fans are the worst fans.

Why do you think that?  What attracted you to this game and when did you start?  At the Core, Wave 1, 2, etc.? Do you dislike Star Wars and the Star Wars universe, theme, etc?

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7 minutes ago, Ken at Sunrise said:

Why do you think that?  What attracted you to this game and when did you start?  At the Core, Wave 1, 2, etc.? Do you dislike Star Wars and the Star Wars universe, theme, etc?

Star Wars fans are impossible to please due to several factors:

worship of the OT thru rose colored nostalgia

high nerd quotient

usually socially maladjusted (goes along with nerd territory)

ect.

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8 hours ago, Frimmel said:

Yes I am complaining. I've seen that movie/film. Why should I want to see them rip off one of my favorite movies only to fill it with modern awful film-making sensibilities? Why should I think it won't turn out exactly like ST:Into Darkness?

The 2014 Godzilla movie had a lot of what I felt was stuff ripped off from better movies. Stuff the director thought was cool so he copied it without really understanding why it was cool. That's the same guy who did Rogue One and I saw an attempt to copy other better rag tag soldiers on a mission tales without really understanding the "why" about the stuff he was trying to copy. 

TFA is full of this sort of sensibility. It is different in that TFA is constantly reaching for unearned moments. TFA and even Rogue One were porcelain hamburgers.

A porcelain hamburger may appear as beautiful and appetizing as a real hamburger but you can't eat it. It won't nourish you. This trailer teased another porcelain hamburger. I want them to stop feeding us porcelain hamburgers. 

I kinda think you don't really like Star Wars.  Or any movie ever since it's always a remake of one that's already been done. Which is the Hero's Journey.  Which is what Star Wars was based on.  

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1 hour ago, GrimmyV said:

Star Wars fans are impossible to please due to several factors:

worship of the OT thru rose colored nostalgia

high nerd quotient

usually socially maladjusted (goes along with nerd territory)

ect.

Hey, I resemble that accusation! :P

It is a fair point that people who are the biggest fans of certain aspects of a franchise are the biggest critics of the parts that don't match their perceived favourites. For me, I enjoy Star Wars overall. The Prequels were disappointing in places but they had good moments too and I rewatch them (especially with my kids). Even TPM has the saving grace of the final lightsaber battle.

I enjoyed TFA, even while accepting that it was a bit of a soft reboot of ANH. I enjoyed Rogue One less as it felt like someone was trying too hard to make a dark gritty version of Star Wars for the sake of being dark and gritty. Someone described it as a good SW fan film and that was what it felt like to me.

Other people loved Rogue One but hated TFA as a rehash? No problem. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, especially when it comes to entertainment. I don't like seafood but that doesn't mean it tastes bad objectively. If you like different things about Star Wars than I do then I am cool with that.

The only thing that gets up my nose is when fans attack each other over those differences. Honestly, we all love the SW universe. Do we need to fight just because someone said they prefer one entry in the franchise more than another? It is that kind of petty infighting that gives geekdom overall a bad name.

My name is Matt and I am a Star Wars fan. If you are a Star Wars fan too of any variety (OT, PT, EU, whatever) then May the Force be with you! ;)

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3 hours ago, Ken at Sunrise said:

This is an interesting thought.  I've thought, and said, that part of what so many liked about Star Wars, the original movie, and Empire was that we were learning about the Star Wars Universe.  In Star Wars, the original movie, you see a Jedi for the first time, a light saber for the first time, mind control, etc. I can honestly recall the first time the audience realized that little green pesky dude was Yoda.  There was mystery, and a universe we were exploring to find it.

I think you're right.  Rogue One/Star Wars followed by Empire/Jedi would be a great way to watch the movies.  Starting with a follower in the old religion but no evidence of it anywhere and nothing buy hope to go on.  Then Star Wars, the original movie, with it's new name 'A New Hope' has meaning from the beginning of the movie.

You've given me a new perspective.  Thanks,

 

I like Machete order. So...does one start with Rogue One if one add it to the machete order (Rogue One/IV, V, II, III, VI)?

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16 hours ago, Ken at Sunrise said:

This is an interesting thought.  I've thought, and said, that part of what so many liked about Star Wars, the original movie, and Empire was that we were learning about the Star Wars Universe.  In Star Wars, the original movie, you see a Jedi for the first time, a light saber for the first time, mind control, etc. I can honestly recall the first time the audience realized that little green pesky dude was Yoda.  There was mystery, and a universe we were exploring to find it.

This is partially an illusion. The film suggests that what you is actually happening in a huge galaxy, but it shows very little. It doesn't actually matter what a womprat is, what the Techno Union is, how Bocce sounds, or why there is not a lot in the Anoat system. The point is that the characters are apparently familiar with these things and they give us the appearance of a larger world. But you don't really experience that larger world.

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20 minutes ago, Verlaine said:

This is partially an illusion. The film suggests that what you is actually happening in a huge galaxy, but it shows very little. It doesn't actually matter what a womprat is, what the Techno Union is, how Bocce sounds, or why there is not a lot in the Anoat system. The point is that the characters are apparently familiar with these things and they give us the appearance of a larger world. But you don't really experience that larger world.

Movie magic!  never build more than you need.  Movie sets are just back drops and props, Not real working objects.  You don't need to go all Tolkein about world building to create a world that seems to have history.

 

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Just now, GrimmyV said:

Movie magic!  never build more than you need.  Movie sets are just back drops and props, Not real working objects.  You don't need to go all Tolkein about world building to create a world that seems to have history.

 

In addition, it has created space for a lot of commercial exploitation. Peter Jackson has a problem if he wants to do more Tolkien movies: the universe is quite constrained. Disney has no problem if they want to do more Star Wars. They just add stuff. And since we're all curious about what a womprat looks like, you can create a toy. Or describe it in a book. It's almost as if someone thought right from the start that, using this storytelling technique, the rights to create merchandise is more valuable than the returns from the movie itself.

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On 4/14/2017 at 8:18 PM, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

So we've all seen the trailer.  What a disappointment.

Looks like TLJ:: ESB as TFA::ANH, and I found the "homage" aspect of TFA to be far too heavy-handed and stale.



But we've got:

Sandspeeders (instead of snowspeeders) racing across a sand desert (instead of an ice desert) to fight AT-ATs
Looks like we have Resistance ships possibly getting ready to run a blockade of the First Order's superior forces
Looks like Rey will be training with the exiled Yoda (I mean Luke) who is pessimistic about training her, probably
Looks very likely that Poe and Finn will get captured and tortured (Poe's Black One blowing up before he can get to it, and Finn in some torture-chair), just like Han was tortured on Cloud City, probably to draw Rey out (just like Luke)


Here's hoping it's a feign by LFL, but if Episode 8 is just ESB v2.0, I'm pretty much just sticking to the Non-Episodic Anthology Films, because TFA was junk as far as story and story-telling goes (though it looked beautiful).

So, you won't be watching it then... thanks for the info.

Must say.. you got an awful lot of supposition from a 2 min trailer that didn't actually show anything. 

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That, TLJ looks like a star wars rip off out of the 2 minute teaser (keyword). It has battles in the same vein every other movie has, jedi training, speeders, sith, and more star warsy stuff, next thing i will learn is that we will also discover that Rey is daughter/granddaughter to some of the main characters from the OT and PT!!!. I sure won't be watching it.

/sarcasm off

Edited by DreadStar

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1 hour ago, boomaster said:

So, you won't be watching it then... thanks for the info.

Must say.. you got an awful lot of supposition from a 2 min trailer that didn't actually show anything. 

And you seem like a person who is not very well in putting the pictures in context. After thinking about it - this teaser trailer sucks. I hope the movie won´´ t... But it looks a lot like it will.


And so it seems Rogue One will be the only good Disney Star Wars Film for a while...

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14 minutes ago, xstormtrooperx said:

And you seem like a person who is not very well in putting the pictures in context. After thinking about it - this teaser trailer sucks. I hope the movie won´´ t... But it looks a lot like it will.


And so it seems Rogue One will be the only good Disney Star Wars Film for a while...

TFA hatred is acceptable as long as you hate the prequels and think Rogue One is good.

I'm an Original Trilogy purist, I like TFA a lot, but I can acknowledge that TFA has some flaws.

But if you think the prequels were better than TFA, then you just have no taste.

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People really have rose-colored glasses with the original movies.  I LOVE them, and the universe, but the movies themselves are guilty of a lot of the things people deride TFA for.

I encourage everyone to re-watch TFA, then re-watch ANH.  And to re-watch the space battle in RotJ.  Things you'll notice:

No real respect for scale.  Imperial ships immediately scout Dantooine.  Ships travel very quickly from one system to another.  The main characters find everything they need in a very small portion of a humongous space station and magically find their way back to the hangar bay despite running desperately through hallways for much of the prior sequences.

Unusual combat expertise.  Luke has never really been in a lethal confrontation before.  He gets his butt kicked immediately at a bar after failing to sense any sort of danger... immediately after getting his butt kicked by sand people, again after utterly failing to sense his immediate danger.  He then flies with solid instincts and above-average competence in his Death Star assault. The extended cut has a (great-- not sure why it didn't make the original cut!) scene where Luke and Biggs catch up and it's explained that Luke is a great pilot has flown a similarly designed ship before, but this is totally lacking from the original.

Chewbacca being treated like a total non-factor.  He receives no real respect or recognition from anybody the whole time.  Nobody takes him seriously.  Leia barely acknowledges him as a sentient being.

Feats of absurd piloting skill.  I thought TFA's treatment of Poe was a little much, but there's at least one scene in RotJ where Wedge is just sort of casually one-shotting Interceptors while on his comms.  It's much more brief, and it looks pretty relaxed from his cockpit view, but an external view and longer shot would probably look pretty similar to Poe's TFA shot.

In summary: TFA was absolutely flawed, despite my immense enjoyment of the film.  The same goes for the originals, though, and in much the same ways.  Don't let nostalgia cloud your ability to view things objectively.

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2 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

People really have rose-colored glasses with the original movies.  I LOVE them, and the universe, but the movies themselves are guilty of a lot of the things people deride TFA for.

I encourage everyone to re-watch TFA, then re-watch ANH.  And to re-watch the space battle in RotJ.  Things you'll notice:

No real respect for scale.  Imperial ships immediately scout Dantooine.  Ships travel very quickly from one system to another.  

I don't recall the imperial ships actually SCOUTING dantooine in ANH. Just Tarkin saying it was too remote for a demonstration. 

And ANH at least had SOME sense of actually traveling. We get scenes of Luke training on the falcon on the way to alderaan for instance

Quote

The main characters find everything they need in a very small portion of a humongous space station and magically find their way back to the hangar bay despite running desperately through hallways for much of the prior sequences.

Again, they don't just "find" leia in ANH. R2D2 plugs into the computer and learns where she is, so they known exactly where to go.  Finding their way back to the hanger bay you may have a better point.

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16 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

I don't recall the imperial ships actually SCOUTING dantooine in ANH. Just Tarkin saying it was too remote for a demonstration. 

And ANH at least had SOME sense of actually traveling. We get scenes of Luke training on the falcon on the way to alderaan for instance

Again, they don't just "find" leia in ANH. R2D2 plugs into the computer and learns where she is, so they known exactly where to go.  Finding their way back to the hanger bay you may have a better point.

They scout it.  The "She lied to us!" scene that leads to her execution scheduling.

I'll agree that there's a nod to actually traveling, but it's pretty token relative to the distances in play.

As for Leia: Sure, they find where they need to go.  Ostensibly Finn knows where Phasma would be on the base, too.  In both cases, the installations are MASSIVE.  There's an equal lack of respect for the scale of the bases they're inside.  It would literally take hours (at minimum) to traverse from one side to another on foot at the sizes portrayed.

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2 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

People really have rose-colored glasses with the original movies.  I LOVE them, and the universe, but the movies themselves are guilty of a lot of the things people deride TFA for.

I encourage everyone to re-watch TFA, then re-watch ANH.  And to re-watch the space battle in RotJ.  Things you'll notice:

No real respect for scale.  Imperial ships immediately scout Dantooine.  Ships travel very quickly from one system to another.  The main characters find everything they need in a very small portion of a humongous space station and magically find their way back to the hangar bay despite running desperately through hallways for much of the prior sequences.

Unusual combat expertise.  Luke has never really been in a lethal confrontation before.  He gets his butt kicked immediately at a bar after failing to sense any sort of danger... immediately after getting his butt kicked by sand people, again after utterly failing to sense his immediate danger.  He then flies with solid instincts and above-average competence in his Death Star assault. The extended cut has a (great-- not sure why it didn't make the original cut!) scene where Luke and Biggs catch up and it's explained that Luke is a great pilot has flown a similarly designed ship before, but this is totally lacking from the original.

Chewbacca being treated like a total non-factor.  He receives no real respect or recognition from anybody the whole time.  Nobody takes him seriously.  Leia barely acknowledges him as a sentient being.

Feats of absurd piloting skill.  I thought TFA's treatment of Poe was a little much, but there's at least one scene in RotJ where Wedge is just sort of casually one-shotting Interceptors while on his comms.  It's much more brief, and it looks pretty relaxed from his cockpit view, but an external view and longer shot would probably look pretty similar to Poe's TFA shot.

In summary: TFA was absolutely flawed, despite my immense enjoyment of the film.  The same goes for the originals, though, and in much the same ways.  Don't let nostalgia cloud your ability to view things objectively.

Amen brother!

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14 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

They scout it.  The "She lied to us!" scene that leads to her execution scheduling.

I'll agree that there's a nod to actually traveling, but it's pretty token relative to the distances in play.

As for Leia: Sure, they find where they need to go.  Ostensibly Finn knows where Phasma would be on the base, too.  In both cases, the installations are MASSIVE.  There's an equal lack of respect for the scale of the bases they're inside.  It would literally take hours (at minimum) to traverse from one side to another on foot at the sizes portrayed.

Turbolifts

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1 minute ago, Verlaine said:

Distances in Star Wars serve the story. So do conversations, for that matter. Things you and I would take hours to discuss are settled in a few sentences.

Exactly.  And it's been that way since the start!

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