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AllWingsStandyingBy

So, we're just getting "Empire Strikes Back 2" then, huh? Sad.

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12 hours ago, Alexhurlbut said:

Too bad TPTB said they won't touch the prequels, whenever it's for a remake or reboot.

Yup, but maybe one day they will by the rights to do those and they should! Disney should do first the stuff they planed and then go and kill Jar Jar Binks for good.

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The icing on my hatred for the prequels is the idea that caring for someone will destroy you and that is to be avoided. The ideal Jedi in the prequels is more robotic and lifeless than Vader ever becomes.

It's ******* stupid and I hate it.

The force was better when it was just some ancient religion practiced by a crazy Muppet and a wise old man.

Edited by Turbo Toker

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22 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

The icing on my hatred for the prequels is the idea that caring for someone will destroy you and that is to be avoided. The ideal Jedi in the prequels is more robotic and lifeless than Vader ever becomes.

It's ******* stupid and I hate it.

The force was better when it was just some ancient religion practiced by a crazy Muppet and a wise old man.

So you're not at all getting that this flawed dogma is exactly why the Jedi have had such a fluctuous history of rising and falling? That Dark Jedi or Fallen Jedi or what have you, are pretty much always individuals who decided to give into their emotions, but were so drilled into hiding them, not dealing with them, so on, so forth, that when significant ones came about they absolutely were not ready for it?

 

Their dogma is why the Jedi have fallen.

Their dogma is why The Jedi Must End.

 

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4 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Every time I read this topic title I imagine it as a Trump tweet.

Yuge topic.  The best topic.

Unsurprisingly, like a Trump tweet it's the hottest thread on the boards and has already spawned over 11 pages of discussion... I don't know how I feel about that.

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8 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

The icing on my hatred for the prequels is the idea that caring for someone will destroy you and that is to be avoided. The ideal Jedi in the prequels is more robotic and lifeless than Vader ever becomes.

It's ******* stupid and I hate it.

The force was better when it was just some ancient religion practiced by a crazy Muppet and a wise old man.

Ummmm... no. It isn't the caring that is the issue. It is the caring leading to not being able to let go of them. Anakin didn't go off the rails because of his attachment to Padme. He went off the rails over fear of losing her. The Jedi teach against attachments because the losing of attachments causes fear and anger. Anakin set aside his principles over fear of losing his wife and doomed the Jedi and the galaxy. 

7 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

So you're not at all getting that this flawed dogma is exactly why the Jedi have had such a fluctuous history of rising and falling? That Dark Jedi or Fallen Jedi or what have you, are pretty much always individuals who decided to give into their emotions, but were so drilled into hiding them, not dealing with them, so on, so forth, that when significant ones came about they absolutely were not ready for it?

 

Their dogma is why the Jedi have fallen.

Their dogma is why The Jedi Must End.

 

I don't quite know where to start with this. "Not even wrong" comes to mind. A false premise leading to a disingenuous conclusion. 

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8 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

The icing on my hatred for the prequels is the idea that caring for someone will destroy you and that is to be avoided. The ideal Jedi in the prequels is more robotic and lifeless than Vader ever becomes.

It's ******* stupid and I hate it.

The force was better when it was just some ancient religion practiced by a crazy Muppet and a wise old man.

The idea that increasingly desperate attempts to avert a prophecy ends up creating those events is one of the oldest stories there is. It wasn't that Anakin cared too much it's that he was prepared to do anything, any cost, to achieve that end. Throw on top monastic celibacy vs forbidden love and you've got the makings of a great (if not super original) epic story. Part of the problem was the gibberish they threw on top to actually make this plot work (visions of the future, dying of a broken heart, lamest plot devices ever), but also they didn't make that transition from good guy using questionable methods to full on bad guy very smooth or understandable. They did it much better in the Clone Wars, where Anakin takes shortcuts to power with the right intentions. E.g. torturing a prisoner to save Ahsoka. Mind you, Clone Wars did a lot of things better. It's really annoying how much better the writing is than for the prequel movies. But that's a different rant.

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56 minutes ago, The Inquisitor said:

The idea that increasingly desperate attempts to avert a prophecy ends up creating those events is one of the oldest stories there is. It wasn't that Anakin cared too much it's that he was prepared to do anything, any cost, to achieve that end. Throw on top monastic celibacy vs forbidden love and you've got the makings of a great (if not super original) epic story. Part of the problem was the gibberish they threw on top to actually make this plot work (visions of the future, dying of a broken heart, lamest plot devices ever), but also they didn't make that transition from good guy using questionable methods to full on bad guy very smooth or understandable. They did it much better in the Clone Wars, where Anakin takes shortcuts to power with the right intentions. E.g. torturing a prisoner to save Ahsoka. Mind you, Clone Wars did a lot of things better. It's really annoying how much better the writing is than for the prequel movies. But that's a different rant.

It wasn't gibberish. Anakin's visions are supplying the prophecy. You can't have a story of attempting to avert a prophecy without the prophecy. Yoda tried to teach Anakin but he wouldn't learn the lesson that one often meets his destiny on the road he takes to avoid it. 

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2 hours ago, Frimmel said:

Ummmm... no. It isn't the caring that is the issue. It is the caring leading to not being able to let go of them. Anakin didn't go off the rails because of his attachment to Padme. He went off the rails over fear of losing her. The Jedi teach against attachments because the losing of attachments causes fear and anger. Anakin set aside his principles over fear of losing his wife and doomed the Jedi and the galaxy. 

Well, doomed the Jedi (or most of them).  The galaxy made it through mostly intact.

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11 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

The force was better when it was just some ancient religion practiced by a crazy Muppet and a wise old man.

I can't disagree with that.  The first three movies, Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi.  Showed a simpler theme, more straight forward with the Jedi being crazy old wizards and sorcerers of an ancient religion.  There were lame parts to be sure but nothing as blatant what is part of the prequels.

One thing the prequels did though was to show that the Jedi was not nearly as good as they portrayed themselves to be.  Recruiting 6 year old children (or younger) away from their mother and family for a life of no attachments and celibacy.  Learning how to keep peace at the end of a Light Saber, war ship and Grand Army of the Republic. And it goes on.  The Jedi were soldiers and generals fighting to ensure their version of the Republic and their version of democracy is what ruled systems.  They did so while pretending to have some grand insight even though in Episode 3 the Jedi Council agreed to keep secret the fact that they've lost that ability.

The Original Trilogy starting with the movie Star Wars was a simpler time and showed the Jedi in simpler terms.  I liked that too.

 

[Edit]: Yes I refer to the original movie by its original name.  I know this may be confusing to some which is why I try to always have context in the sentence.  I was talking about A New Hope and that originally is was just called Star Wars.  He didn't believe me or that I just didn't know Star Wars that well.  So yes, I try to be clear.  I don't really mind the new name.  But for OT fans like me.  It was Star Wars and that's what started everything.

Edited by Ken at Sunrise
Added explanation for movie title

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34 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Well, doomed the Jedi (or most of them).  The galaxy made it through mostly intact.

Alderaan didn't. Do you think that was the beginning and end of The Empire's capricious malevolence?

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The Jedi had good reason for their celibacy rule.  Being unattached allows a Jedi to be sent anywhere in the galaxy on a moment's notice and allows him to take risks in order to achieve his objectives without worrying about widowing a spouse or orphaning children.  Also, there's the Achilles' heel of every superhero - he's vulnerable to blackmail or extortion through his loved ones.  Jedi don't have secret identities.

It was not a moral of these movies that caring about others will bring you to ruin.

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1 minute ago, Helias de Nappo said:

The Jedi had good reason for their celibacy rule.  Being unattached allows a Jedi to be sent anywhere in the galaxy on a moment's notice and allows him to take risks in order to achieve his objectives without worrying about widowing a spouse or orphaning children.  Also, there's the Achilles' heel of every superhero - he's vulnerable to blackmail or extortion through his loved ones.  Jedi don't have secret identities.

It was not a moral of these movies that caring about others will bring you to ruin.

See red high-light above.  I'm aware of the reasons, that wasn't my point.  Actually you helped clarify and make my point.  Their concern was not this peaceful balance in the force and galaxy.  Like everyone else it was achieving they objectives.  Sure peace and balance sounded nice and would have been noble, but liberty through a religious order that was able to unilaterally enforce their own civil law through force is what the Jedi were in episode three.  Notice when Anakin said 'Jedi business, move along' or something to that effect.  Then by episode four they are military commanders.

My point was that the Original Trilogy portrayed Jedi differently than the prequels.

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13 minutes ago, Ken at Sunrise said:

One thing the prequels did though was to show that the Jedi was not nearly as good as they portrayed themselves to be.  Recruiting 6 year old children (or younger) away from their mother and family for a life of no attachments and celibacy.  Learning how to keep peace at the end of a Light Saber, war ship and Grand Army of the Republic. And it goes on.  The Jedi were soldiers and generals fighting to ensure their version of the Republic and their version of democracy is what ruled systems.  They did so while pretending to have some grand insight even though in Episode 3 the Jedi Council agreed to keep secret the fact that they've lost that ability.

 

Or they took six year old children with nascent super powers and taught them to use them for the good of all. I suggest that force sensitive children have an analog in the mutant children of the X-men stories. Is Professor X "not nearly as good" for providing a place for those children? For teaching them to use their powers and to think of and serve others and the common good? 

If one values peace, one can not be weak thus the lightsabers. 

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Just now, Frimmel said:

Or they took six year old children with nascent super powers and taught them to use them for the good of all. I suggest that force sensitive children have an analog in the mutant children of the X-men stories. Is Professor X "not nearly as good" for providing a place for those children? For teaching them to use their powers and to think of and serve others and the common good? 

But your version of 'common good' may be quite different from another's.  And that has an even bigger impact when you force your version of the 'common good' upon others.   Xavier in the X-Men wasn't trying to be the world's police force.  The Jedi went from that to military generals.

Just now, Frimmel said:

If one values peace, one can not be weak thus the lightsabers. 

I understand your belief though I can say it is just a belief, there are others.  There are a lot of groups today, many of them religious, that disagree with your thought on that.  Also there are a lot of other religious that while claiming be 'peaceful' have for a 1,000 years being very brutal using the military to carry out their beliefs. 

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18 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Alderaan didn't. Do you think that was the beginning and end of The Empire's capricious malevolence?

Hence why I said mostly intact.  it may have doomed some people, but it hardly doomed the whole galaxy.  Some people/planets had it harder than others, but on the whole, a little over 20 years under the empire in the grand scheme of a a galaxy that lived under a single republic for thousands of years is hardly doomed.

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11 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Or they took six year old children with nascent super powers and taught them to use them for the good of all. I suggest that force sensitive children have an analog in the mutant children of the X-men stories. Is Professor X "not nearly as good" for providing a place for those children? For teaching them to use their powers and to think of and serve others and the common good? 

If one values peace, one can not be weak thus the lightsabers. 

But there is a key difference between the Jedi and Prof X. Prof X took in anybody that needed help with their powers, while the Jedi only took in force users at a young age. Remember what the Council said about Anakin? He was too old. That means those found after a certain age are not taken in and trained. The Old Republic Jedi would turn someone like Rey or Luke (at the age they were when they sought out training) away because they were too old.

I do agree with the lightsaber part.

Edited by SabineKey

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3 minutes ago, Ken at Sunrise said:

See red high-light above.  I'm aware of the reasons, that wasn't my point.  Actually you helped clarify and make my point.  Their concern was not this peaceful balance in the force and galaxy.  Like everyone else it was achieving they objectives.  Sure peace and balance sounded nice and would have been noble, but liberty through a religious order that was able to unilaterally enforce their own civil law through force is what the Jedi were in episode three.  Notice when Anakin said 'Jedi business, move along' or something to that effect.  Then by episode four they are military commanders.

My point was that the Original Trilogy portrayed Jedi differently than the prequels.

It wasn't Jedi "law." It was the laws of The Republic. The Jedi were made generals in a crisis as the closest thing to a standing military The Republic had. They were servants of The Republic. The servants of democracy which is commonly understood as the will of the people. 

I am starting to be a bit flabbergasted that I have to defend The Jedi as actually being the good guys. :(

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4 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

But there is a key difference between the Jedi and Prof X. Prof X took in anybody that needed help with their powers, while the Jedi only took in force users at a young age. Remember what the Council said about Anakin? He was too old. That means those found after a certain age are not taken in and trained. The Old Republic Jedi would turn someone like Rey or Luke (at the age they were when they sought out training) away because they were too old.

I do agree with the lightsaber part.

It isn't a perfect analogy. The stuff you guys are trying to put on The Jedi just leaves me at a loss. :unsure:

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13 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

I am starting to be a bit flabbergasted that I have to defend The Jedi as actually being the good guys. :(

Good, yes. But, based on stuff we've seen and heard in the lore, not necessarily the ultimate good or best path.

10 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

It isn't a perfect analogy. The stuff you guys are trying to put on The Jedi just leaves me at a loss. :unsure:

It's all in Star Wars. In the Clone Wars cartoon, there is a four episode arc where we start seeing anti-Jedi sentiment from Republic citizens and even from members of the Order itself. While the Jedi in question went about things in the wrong way, she was still making similar points as we have about the Jedi's unbending views. Even Ahsoka Tano, the one framed for the crime in the story arc, agreed with the rogue Jedi on points and left the order due to how they handled the situation. 

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3 hours ago, Frimmel said:

It wasn't gibberish. Anakin's visions are supplying the prophecy. You can't have a story of attempting to avert a prophecy without the prophecy. Yoda tried to teach Anakin but he wouldn't learn the lesson that one often meets his destiny on the road he takes to avoid it. 

Sure. And there are other visions throughout the saga, and thinking about it the Emperor did have precognition, but it was still somewhat unsatisfying. There was no Delphic Oracle, no particular explanation for his precognition other than vague "Force" handwaving. But it was the abject lack of a satisfying ending as to how this prophecy came about that really irked me. 

I read a fan theory that Darth Sidious siphoned Force energy from Padme to heal Anakin to become Darth Vader which is why she died - which would be a really quite neat ending. 

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1 hour ago, Frimmel said:

I am starting to be a bit flabbergasted that I have to defend The Jedi as actually being the good guys. :(

 

1 hour ago, Frimmel said:

It isn't a perfect analogy. The stuff you guys are trying to put on The Jedi just leaves me at a loss. :unsure:

In the Original Trilogy I might have said the same things you have.  But after the prequels, The Clone Wars and Rebels I guess I see the Jedi in a differently than you.  They are just people.  Making the same mistakes, having the same fears, etc.  While their cause may have been noble and just, their methods were waging war with star systems that didn't want their form of government.  In Star Wars the democracy, what you refer to as the will of the people ended up with the people getting an Empire and Dictator.  Even in The Clone Wars there's comments about the 'Jedi War'.   Check out the season two episode when Asoka looses here Light Saber.  She passes a billboard where Palpatine is, ironically, defending the Jedi in this war.  Padme' said in episode 3, 'maybe we are on the wrong side'.  The Jedi were people, with all their imperfections.  Recruiting children and waging war may not have been what they wanted to be known for or even what they stood for.  But somehow that is where they ended up.

I do miss the Original Trilogy Jedi.  Yes they were the good guys.

 

Side Note: Not to jump into philosophy but: Ever read Aristotle's writings on democracy or an Ends/Means inversion?  Democracy was never perfect.  Aristotle noted that a true democracy is quite tyrannical to whomever is the minority; the U.S. version of democracy tries to adjust for this by having a Senate.  An End/Means inversion when the means to accomplish your goal becomes more important than goal itself, or vise-versa.  Perhaps a discussion of the Jedi and whether they are good or bad should be in a different thread.

Edited by Ken at Sunrise
spell'in

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5 minutes ago, The Inquisitor said:

I read a fan theory that Darth Sidious siphoned Force energy from Padme to heal Anakin to become Darth Vader which is why she died - which would be a really quite neat ending. 

The important part is that Padme dies when Anakin breathes in his suit for the first time. One can build some theory around it, but the symbolism is what counts.

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5 minutes ago, Ken at Sunrise said:

 

If the Original Trilogy I might have said the same things you have.  But after the prequels, The Clone Wars and Rebels I guess I see the Jedi in a differently than you.  They are just people.  Making the same mistakes, having the same fears, etc.  While their cause may have been noble and just, their methods were waging war with star systems that didn't want their form of government.  In Star Wars the democracy, what you refer to as the will of the people ended up with the people getting an Empire and Dictator.  Even in The Clone Wars there's comments about the 'Jedi War'.   Check out the season two episode when Asoka looses here Light Saber.  She passes a billboard where Palpatine is, ironically, defending the Jedi in this war.  Padme' said in episode 3, 'maybe we are on the wrong side'.  The Jedi were people, with all their imperfections.  Recruiting children and waging war may not have been what they wanted to be known for or even what they stood for.  But somehow that is where they ended up.

I do miss the Original Trilogy Jedi.  Yes they were the good guys.

Even in the original trilogy Obi-wan casually uses mind-control (could be argued to be less of an issue since it's on stormtroopers, aka enemy troops) and cuts off someones arm.

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13 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

The icing on my hatred for the prequels is the idea that caring for someone will destroy you and that is to be avoided. The ideal Jedi in the prequels is more robotic and lifeless than Vader ever becomes.

It's ******* stupid and I hate it.

The force was better when it was just some ancient religion practiced by a crazy Muppet and a wise old man.

To be fair, neither that crazy muppet or that old loner had any real attachments.  They were both crazy loners, even in the Trilogoy, so I'm not sure the Prequels came along and made the life of the Jedi any less attached.  Maybe the reason the Force was an 'old religion' that was only practiced by the eccentric was precisely because its tenets were so detached and the sacrifices required of its followers were too extreme for most folks (not unlike how many religions today still require their clergy or their monks to be celibate).

To say that the Jedi in the Prequels are robotic and lifeless is not necessarily a charge against the order in particular, but perhaps just a failing of the Prequels' writing/acting in general.  I can't think of any Prequel characters that didn't feel robotic and lifeless, really.  Was Jango Fett a pinnacle of the flourishing life?  Did Zam Wessel ooze personality?  Was Padme full of vibrance and life?  To be fair, I'm also not sure I'd say Rey was anything but subdued and robotic either, even drawing from major characters of the new films, same with General Organa.  Admiral Ackbar seems pretty robotic too.  Hell, the dialogue from Gold Leader and "Pops" and Wedge and many of the other pilots are some of the most emotionless deliveries in the whole franchise.  I mean Pops' whole "Stay on Taget....Stay on Target.... They killed Hutch and Gold 3...." is about as devoid of emotion as possible.  Wedge trips a walker and flatly says "Wow...eee....that got him...."



 

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