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joeshmoe554

FN-2199 with Riot Baton

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This came up in a game I played during the pre-release event when someone played the Riot Control Baton on FN-2199.  The question was posed if you could play the Riot Baton, roll it out using FN-2199's ability, re-roll the Riot Baton's die using its ability and then resolve it using FN-2199's ability.  We ended up ruling that since FN's ability triggered first you would have to choose to either resolve the die after the initial roll, or reroll it using the baton's ability but you could not reroll it and then resolve the die.

Card abilities for reference:

FN-2199 - After you play a weapon on this character, roll that weapon die, if able.  You may immediately resolve it.

Riot Baton - After you roll this die into your pool, you may reroll it.

Did we get this right or is there some potential rule I may be missing?

Edited by joeshmoe554
added card abilities

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The word "immediately" is a really confusing word... I think in this case it's just a reminder that you get to use FN-2199 to do both things before your opponent can do anything. In the FAQ, it says that the word "immediately" has absolutely no effect on gameplay - it's basically a flavor text. Therefore, since all the effects trigger with the "after" keyword, you can choose the order in which to do them. So when you play the weapon on FN-2199, you get to reroll it and then resolve it.

Their articles aren't always correct, but FFG did also refer to this interaction in today's news article:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/4/14/command-your-forces/

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I happen to think your interpretation is correct, if both triggers happened simultaneously then it's different. The way the queue works, FN's ability triggers, and the result of that ability triggers Riot baton. How can you complete the queue on Riot baton (choosing to rerolling after its been rolled) then go back and get the resolve portion of FN's ability. 

That being said I very well could be wrong, but try to looK at it linear and 2 different card effects should be resolved in order they entered the queue.

Attaching the item fn's ability queues

Upon completion of a roll then batons ability enters, which happensures after the completion of FN's queued ability. Therefore if you pass on the resolution of fns weapon die you may reroll but not resolve. 

 

This is not the rule, this is my interpretation that could very easily be incorrect, but it's how I play it until proven otherwise.

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2 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

The word "immediately" is a really confusing word... I think in this case it's just a reminder that you get to use FN-2199 to do both things before your opponent can do anything. In the FAQ, it says that the word "immediately" has absolutely no effect on gameplay - it's basically a flavor text. Therefore, since all the effects trigger with the "after" keyword, you can choose the order in which to do them. So when you play the weapon on FN-2199, you get to reroll it and then resolve it.

Their articles aren't always correct, but FFG did also refer to this interaction in today's news article:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/4/14/command-your-forces/

And this article makes me think I'm wrong and you can reroll then resolve. Who knows?!

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4 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Their articles aren't always correct, but FFG did also refer to this interaction in today's news article:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/4/14/command-your-forces/

The number of mistakes I've seen in the X-Wing articles, makes me question most unusual rules interactions in FFG articles.

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Just now, Rebeltrooper said:

And this article makes me think I'm wrong and you can reroll then resolve. Who knows?!

Yeah, Destiny uses a queue, and you're right that this doesn't really make sense from that standpoint. My usual game is X-Wing, and in that game you just get to hold on to any abilities that trigger "after" something, and then resolve them in any order unless an FAQ says otherwise. 

I tend to trust their news articles, but I do think that I'd like to see an FAQ about this. Hopefully May 4 will also see a release of a new FAQ!

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Relevant text from the Rules Reference:

Queue - ... Each effect must fully resolve before the next one resolves. If during the resolution of something in the queue, another effect is added, it moves to “the end” of the queue and is resolved last.

After Abilities - If, during the course of a game, an after ability meets its trigger condition, it resolves following the resolution of the trigger condition. Unlike before abilities, after abilities do not interrupt the flow of the game, and instead wait their turn in the queue to resolve.

Looking at those, it would make sense that FN's ability would have to fully resolve before you could resolve the ability on the Riot Baton, since his trigger comes first and the riot baton is triggered in the middle of his ability.

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It could be like the difference between second chance and thermal detonator plus munition belt. The belt can't be used with second chance, but it can with the Thermal, just because it's ability is worded in 2 sentences, thus effectively splitting it into 2 steps which allows the belt to be applied to the second part/sentence of the ability (slipping between the complete resolving of the thermals ability, kinda interrupting with the belts ability).

Following that ruling you could add the die to the pool, then reroll with the weapons ability (slipping between the 2 sentences) and then return to the trooper to resolve.

Not a big fan of that interpretation, as it kinda weakens the queue resolution rule even more, but it could be possible (and might even be intended especially in this case).

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18 hours ago, Shaadea said:

The belt can't be used with second chance

Sure it can.  The trigger is discarding an upgrade, and the trigger effect is what it replaces.  It's not "If some part of an effect discards an upgrade then cancel an entire effect".

I'm honestly not sure where this idea comes from - more than a few people seem to think that's how it works, but there's really nothing in the rules that structures it this way, and it pretty much runs against the plan wording on the card (where something happens and you do something else instead of what happened).  I'm guessing it comes from other games that treat "and" as a fully atomic effect, so you can't replace the discard without replacing everything else as well.  But there doesn't seem to be anything in Destiny that supports this.

Edited by Buhallin

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7 hours ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

I haven't seen the actual card, but it seems like a major oversight if Ammo Belt doesn't specify non-ability upgrade. 

It does not.

A 'major oversight' is the polite way of what I said when a mate played it on his second chance the other day.

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I just want to point out the article does not say you can roll rot baton with 9s ability then re-roll then resolve. The full paragraph is 

"Spirit of Rebellion introduces plenty of weapons for FN-2199 to use, including the  Z6 Riot Control Baton (Spirit of Rebellion, 8). Though the baton has two blank sides, you can reroll the die when you initially roll it into your pool, giving you a second chance to get the results you’re looking for. With a 50/50 chance to roll multiple melee damage, playing the baton gives you high odds of hitting your opponent, and if you play it on FN-2199, you get to resolve that damage right away."

 

It introduces the baton and then explains it then says theres a 50/50 chance to roll damage AND if you play it on 9s you get to resolve it right away. 

Take it how you will. 

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4 minutes ago, amrothe said:

yes rerolling is in inhrent ability of the die you can reroll and resolve.

Amrothe Read this

 

On 4/14/2017 at 2:51 PM, Buhallin said:

The "use the queue" voices are right on this one.  The Riot Baton's effect goes into the queue, and wouldn't resolve until after everything (notable FN's ability) in front of it in the queue had been resolved.

 

Edited by krzykoopa

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It seems so straight forward to me.  I'm with Amrothe on this.  It's a inherent ability of the dice.  It works awsome on FN.  To much overthinking.  FN lets you roll it in.  Just like it's doing ranged damage or melee damage by design, by design it can re rolled once right away.  Choose to resolve.  Seems simple.  Even the article describes it that way.  I bet when they invented it around the board room table it was that way.  Sheeesh

 

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2 hours ago, ToonzEH said:

I bet when they invented it around the board room table it was that way.  Sheeesh

 

You can bet that all you want, but the rules say otherwise as people have explained above  (referencing the rules to back up their claim).

 

Simply saying 'i feel it should do this' does not a valid rules lawyer make.

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The problem is they don't have the new faq out with the list of inherent die abilities. But you can be sure blackmail and baton will be on that list.  If rerolling is not ruled as an inherent ability of the die and I am wrong then no you wouldn't be able to resolve it. Ultimately we just have to wait and see.

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What does it being an inherent die ability have to do with whether you can reroll it when FN rolls it in?

An ability is an ability and enters the queue whether it's an inherent die ability or not.

You have to completely resolve FN's ability before you get the chance to re-roll the die from the Baton's ability.

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because if its an inherent die ability then for timing purposes rolling the die and rerolling the die for this card is  equivilant to rolling the die for timing. If its not an inherent ability of the die then for timing purposes you would roll it in and resolve it but not be able to reroll it and resolve (in that action).

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, amrothe said:

because if its an inherent die ability then for timing purposes rolling the die and rerolling the die for this card is  equivilant to rolling the die for timing. If its not an inherent ability of the die then for timing purposes you would roll it in and resolve it but not be able to reroll it and resolve (in that action).

 

 

 

That's not what an Inherent die ability means...like at all...

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Right now it just lists that its an ability that  affects how a die resolves. But I am trying to give you a good guess as to how it will work going forward in the next faq. I believe blackmail will work the same way even if it gets ace in the hole'd in the opponent will still get to pay to remove it.

 

PS this is all conjecture though and neither of us will know or be right until the faq gets printed in a few weeks

Edited by amrothe

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Inherent die abilities are abilities that effect how the die is resolved, regardless of whether the card for the die is in play. It doesn't affect timing at all.

If the Riot Baton's reroll is an inherent ability, which I think it is, all that means is, if you could roll this into your pool somehow without the card being in play, you'd still get to reroll the die because of it's ability.

Now this situation isn't regarding it's ability and how the die is resolved. It's a timing issue that isn't affected by the inherentness of the ability. We have two triggered abilities. 

FN's ability triggers when you play it, then you roll that die into the pool and you may resolve it.

The Riot Baton triggers when you roll the die (but before you resolve it) however it goes into the queue and waits for you to finishing resolving FN's ability.

 

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