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Izikial

The jealousy/distain of scum

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17 minutes ago, Izikial said:

I wasnt trying to offend anyone or anything. I spend a bit of time on hear and see a good number of nerf x scum card/ship and bearly see anything for the othere factions. If you nerf the few good scum options it dose leev scum in a realy bad place. It definalty feels like there an annoyance to the vets who just want to play 7 ties generics and 4 x wing generics in a joust of cus thats star wars darn it

Honestly, such sentiments have been around for years. Before Scum got hit with the nerf storm, it seemed that Imperials bore the brunt of it with outcries against Aces, Palp, and x7. I've even seen people complaining about Arc Dodging getting in the way of the game. 

Whenever something rises to the top, it becomes a target. Whenever a list people likes falls out of the meta, they are likely to feel resentful towards the things the feel caused the situation. 

While there are some worrisome elements to Scum (looking at you, Jumpmaster), I think the rest of it is fine. Heh, give me a list with a Lancer and/or Fangs, and I'm all over it.

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7 hours ago, Izikial said:

an after thought i do get a little perterbed when podcasts will list of the tornimant winning lists and out of about 8 you have 1 reble jank, 1 miranda dash, 1 trip k, 1 coman wealth ace, 1 palp defenders, 1 rac wisper, 1 kath bossk, 1 bro bots. But as there reading them of they are happy about the impa and rebs doing well but then seem anouyed that scum was competative. This is generic to lots of podcasts

Where did this happen?!  I'd love to see that top 8. You're missing the ire. It's the vast majority of System winners being 1 seriously OP list that used the most poorly play tested expansion yet and a vastly improved TIE interceptor ripoff that does 5-7 dice equivalent damage for roughly top interceptor points. 

Then when the great nerfing happens TLTs, mindlink, and Miranda (I know she's a rebel) are untouched but "so last meta" Palpatine, x7, and Maneroo get clubbed. While x7 deserved it, Maneroo's change means you have to fly her exactly like the world champion did anyway and the real offenders get a pass. 

Scum and Rebels don't compete on a level playing field against Imperials... so there's some tension there and Rebels only really have to compete with Scum, so that's why you might feel picked on.  

I own as many Scum expansions as I do Imperials. I'd like to see as many of my ships as playable as possible. 

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I'm happy for Scum right now.

They were seriously lagging behind the other two factions in viable builds for a their first few waves.  Good to see them win a worlds.

Basically the forum complaining swings along a three-way pendulum.  It used to be a two way pendulum.

I'm an Imperial player (primarily, I do own all of the ships).  We haven't won a worlds since the days of TIE swarms.

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I do not in principle dislike Scum.  I like their ships, they have some great characters, and thematically they fit the fluff of Star Wars.

I do, however, dislike that they have clearly gotten the Lion's Share of aggressive design in the past few waves, which many problematic cards released for them.  FFG is, as a company, very averse to errata. And yet we've seen that even FFG has felt the Scum deserved four corrective erratas in the past year (R4, Deadeye, Manaroo, Zuckuss).  This is unprecedented in the five year history of X-Wing.  I want X-Wing to be a fun, healthy, and balanced game.  While I like Scum thematically and aesthetically, I find much of their recently released content to be a big problem for the competitive game. 

Meanwhile, Rebels have received some very lazy and conservative design over the past few waves (most notably the U-Wing and HotR, but also cards like R3 Astromech), very little of which is even interesting enough or good enough to even flirt with the idea of putting it into a list (R3 Astro, Bodhi Rook, Baze Malbus, and Bistan are some of worst cards this game has seen in a long time.  Seriously, Bistan is basically Merc Co-Pilot bad, and he's been garbage since he premiered in Wave 2...). 

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Scum is great and cool.  They're fantastic and definitely add to the game.  Its just the issue of its implementation.  

But its got a lot of issues: 

1.  A lot of the ships are what we call aggressively costed.  Meaning, they're better than their normal 50% mathematical value by a slight amount, usually 1 point.  See jousting value and mathwing.  See the protectorate, mostly a better interceptor.   See the Shadow Caster, again undercosted by 1-2 points.  
2.  The Jumpmaster was a great design ruined by power creep, is aggressively costed by nearly 3 whole points.  Multiplied over 3 Jumps gives you 9 points over what you're usually paying for.  Plus internal synergy is too high and is a type of combo that is un-fun and not good for balance.  Its been nerfed 3 times and still retains its top position. 
3.  The power level is simply irritating.  Pre-nerf Zuckuss and 4-lom dengar.  Pre-nerf jumps.  2 IG during wave6.   The maneuver levels are above everything else in the game. 
4.  Its all about big ships. IG, Shadow caster, Jumpmaster.  While the small ships were utterly poor:  Scyk, kahijsdnfmd, Starviper, HWK, tugboat.  Literally 5 of those ships are pretty garbage.  
5.  And of course the one to take the cake: it brings out a bunch of men who are attracted to being special, quirky and loud mouthed. ew
 

Edited by Blail Blerg

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Sum is usually fielding jumpmasters and shadow casters. Which don't feel like dogfighters in a dogfighting game. Ordinance carriers, jousters and arcdodgers feel good to fly and fly against. Turreted ships that focus on jank lower the importance of actually flying, which is the core of the game. Rebel and imperial large ships are usually support ships or ardodgers without too much jank. I like anything that requires actual forethought, and scum never fields it. 

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Petty, to be sure, but I hate the Scum faction for two reasons:

 

They get a Y Wing pilot with an EPT

Their Astromechs are so much more useful

 

Oh, and Zuckuss and the EPT Generic JMP 5000 but "elite" Red Squadron...no EPT for you without R2D6. 

 

ick. 

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People like to hate Scum being competitive because the powerful Scum stuff revolves around robbing players of good dice rolls or tokens or punishing you for attacking it.

This is why Dengaroo drew so much hatred. It punished you for attacking it. Also, Many people have no understanding of the dice in this game, so when a good roll was Zuckuss'ed they get angry and feel robbed.

4-LOM crew is the same way.

People have been used to invincible ace ships and fat turrets since wave 4 and it's become the new normal for them. They're used to never being able to damage anything and never getting damaged themselves. This is why Parattanni was seen as, "just an incredibly solid build, but it's not overpowered, just incredibly good" or palp defenders was seen as, "palpatine is only once a turn, just have to focus fire bro". Meanwhile when a ship with Zuckuss aboard or a list with 3 ships that have a 90%/75% chance of 4/4 hits that isn't beholden to trying to acquire target locks on PS 9 ships and can actually damage their ace comes along, they get angry. You can see it with the rising hatred of Sabine crew.

So what happens is that these players who are used to never taking any damage actually take damage, they get angry. Nevermind that this level of offense became necessary in order to deal with the likes of Soontir, the Inquisitor, and TIE/x7 Defenders.

In short, offense dominating feels more overt and in your face. Defense dominating is sneaky and isn't directly overpowered. Instead of getting blown away outright, your attacks will all just harmlessly bounce off and your list will be bled white over the course of a few turns. Most competitive Imperial lists and Rebel lists have revolved around strong defense with most Scum lists revolving around strong offense. The lists that break this trend, like Parattanni or Sabine K-Wings, end up not being complained about or being complained about respectively.

People still complain about U-Boats, but they don't see Asajj with Latts Razzi crew as a problem for example.

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1 hour ago, Turbo Toker said:

People have been used to invincible ace ships and fat turrets since wave 4 and it's become the new normal for them. They're used to never being able to damage anything and never getting damaged themselves. 

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1 hour ago, Turbo Toker said:

So what happens is that these players who are used to never taking any damage actually take damage, they get angry.

Projecting, much?

1 hour ago, Turbo Toker said:

People still complain about U-Boats, but they don't see Asajj with Latts Razzi crew as a problem for example.

People complain about a lot of things.  Latts Razzi isn't a problem.  I don't know how many more times people need to be told that just because something beats you, and you don't like how it won, doesn't mean it doesn't fit within the game's balance.

Edited by FangedChicken

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19 minutes ago, FangedChicken said:

Projecting, much?

People complain about a lot of things.  Latts Razzi isn't a problem.  I don't know how many more times people need to be told that just because something beats you, and you don't like how it won, doesn't mean it doesn't fit within the game's balance.

You could have said that about the Phantom before the nerf.

If you're going to consider all dissent as, "just because you don't like it isn't a reason to nerf something", there is no possible way that anything could ever be considered wrong with the game. A ship could have 99 attack dice and because I wouldn't like it, you'd defend its inclusion in the game.

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5 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

You could have said that about the Phantom before the nerf.

If you're going to consider all dissent as, "just because you don't like it isn't a reason to nerf something", there is no possible way that anything could ever be considered wrong with the game. A ship could have 99 attack dice and because I wouldn't like it, you'd defend its inclusion in the game.

No, it wouldn't fit into the game because it would have 99 attack dice.  That's a quantifiable problem.  

Subjective arguments centered around hyperbole (invincible ships), personal opinion (what you prefer your opponents play against you with), and bias against ships that behave in a manner you dislike, is not a justification for the removal of something or the nerf of something in game.

Parattanni was the first list in a while that I had been watching closely, since it had an undeniable dominant streak.  It was definitely worthy of scrutiny, because we could look at the tournament results over a long period of time, and then say, "okay, this list might need to be looked at for metagame adjustment".  That's how you have to approach this. Not, "feels bad when I lose, nerf Palpatine".

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Just now, rafcpl6868 said:

Sum is usually fielding jumpmasters and shadow casters. Which don't feel like dogfighters in a dogfighting game. Ordinance carriers, jousters and arcdodgers feel good to fly and fly against. Turreted ships that focus on jank lower the importance of actually flying, which is the core of the game. Rebel and imperial large ships are usually support ships or ardodgers without too much jank. I like anything that requires actual forethought, and scum never fields it. 

To be fair, Rebels have the same issue; you got the Falcon, the Outrider, the Ghost, and turret Y-Wings, K-wings, and HWKs. 

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35 minutes ago, FangedChicken said:

No, it wouldn't fit into the game because it would have 99 attack dice.  That's a quantifiable problem.  

Subjective arguments centered around hyperbole (invincible ships), personal opinion (what you prefer your opponents play against you with), and bias against ships that behave in a manner you dislike, is not a justification for the removal of something or the nerf of something in game.

Parattanni was the first list in a while that I had been watching closely, since it had an undeniable dominant streak.  It was definitely worthy of scrutiny, because we could look at the tournament results over a long period of time, and then say, "okay, this list might need to be looked at for metagame adjustment".  That's how you have to approach this. Not, "feels bad when I lose, nerf Palpatine".

Having 2 guaranteed evade results plus always having a focus and 2 agility with 10 health is a quantifiable problem.

When I say that the ship is invincible, it's shorthand for what I just stated. Not just because I don't like it.

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9 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

Having 2 guaranteed evade results plus always having a focus and 2 agility with 10 health is a quantifiable problem.

When I say that the ship is invincible, it's shorthand for what I just stated. Not just because I don't like it.

You just listed 3 different defensive strengths of different ships. All of which have answers.

Always have a focus? Not when they're stressed. See: Latts Razzi, Kylo Ren's Shuttle title, and stressbot.

Got evade tokens? Ordinance. See: HM, mines, etc.

2 agility and 10 health includes the YT-2400, which only excels with a title and HLC.  Easy pickings at range one.

That guaranteed evade you seem hung up about was on an 8 point, two crew slot card, that currently can only be put on three ships.  The ship he's on can't exactly dodge well.  I don't know why people don't just focus the shuttle. I've seen Fenn Rau and Old T take one out in a single turn.

These ships are not "invincible". That's the point.  Their effects are powerful, yes, and they might even be the best ships on the table but something will always be the best.

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4 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Meanwhile, Rebels have received some very lazy and conservative design over the past few waves (most notably the U-Wing and HotR, but also cards like R3 Astromech), very little of which is even interesting enough or good enough to even flirt with the idea of putting it into a list (R3 Astro, Bodhi Rook, Baze Malbus, and Bistan are some of worst cards this game has seen in a long time.  Seriously, Bistan is basically Merc Co-Pilot bad, and he's been garbage since he premiered in Wave 2...). 

Let's not forget:

1. The K-wing

2. Miranda Doni in particular

3. Sabine crew

4. The Ghost 

5. The pick of the wave 10 ships in the rebel tie fighter

Deadeye scouts royally shafted Rebels as a faction. Rebels look fine otherwise.

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2 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

People like to hate Scum being competitive because the powerful Scum stuff revolves around robbing players of good dice rolls or tokens or punishing you for attacking it

Wait... what? So you think that 1 faction being able to ruin good rolls and neuter attecks and cancel any real opponent flying skill and rewarding mediocre dial choices is all fine and great and no one should complain?

seriously? Let's cut to the chase and give a Scum player 6 dice, the Rebel 5, and the Imperial 4, roll off and then act mystified that people want to say something about that....

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47 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

Wait... what? So you think that 1 faction being able to ruin good rolls and neuter attecks and cancel any real opponent flying skill and rewarding mediocre dial choices is all fine and great and no one should complain?

seriously? Let's cut to the chase and give a Scum player 6 dice, the Rebel 5, and the Imperial 4, roll off and then act mystified that people want to say something about that....

My point is that that both super offense and super defense are a problem. They contribute to each other. They become necessary in order to overcome the other. You end up in this arms race with both sides escalating.

It's just that since super offense is more overt, people focus on it even when super defense is just as powerful.

Scum has more super offense options, so it draws more fire. They have overtly OP mechanics, while other factions have OP defense mechanics that are about as equally powerful, but less overt.

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1 minute ago, Turbo Toker said:

My point is that that both super offense and super defense are a problem. They contribute to each other. They become necessary in order to overcome the other. You end up in this arms race with both sides escalating.

It's just that since super offense is more overt, people focus on it even when super defense is just as powerful.

Scum has more super offense options, so it draws more fire. They have overtly OP mechanics, while other factions have OP defense mechanics that are about as equally powerful, but less overt.

First of all red dice > green dice. Also who cares about evade results when you can just truck around in large ships that negate most control mechanics, have oddles of health, fire out any arc... or a small ship like the crazy OPness of the Protectorate... rolling 5+ red or greens as a matter of course... the Awings and TIE Interceptors look stupid stacked against it. 

Shadowcaster, Protectorate, Jumpmaster... if you are flying these and losing to Imperials doing anything other than triple Defenders, just be ashamed... and I'm fine with the palp and x7 nerfs... wish Scum players could be as objective about the above ships... or just toss mindlink and leave the OP ships alone... I don't mind flying uphill but mindlink feels more like someone's running a trainer... and truthfully Kanan/Biggs/Rey/M9 isn't far off. 

I'm not being bitter. I've actually beat the above builds everytime I've faced them with an Imperial list... but I was lucky and/or they made mistakes and I was still barely able to eke out a win... that's not balance its happenstance 

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1 hour ago, FangedChicken said:

You just listed 3 different defensive strengths of different ships. All of which have answers.

Always have a focus? Not when they're stressed. See: Latts Razzi, Kylo Ren's Shuttle title, and stressbot.

Got evade tokens? Ordinance. See: HM, mines, etc.

2 agility and 10 health includes the YT-2400, which only excels with a title and HLC.  Easy pickings at range one.

That guaranteed evade you seem hung up about was on an 8 point, two crew slot card, that currently can only be put on three ships.  The ship he's on can't exactly dodge well.  I don't know why people don't just focus the shuttle. I've seen Fenn Rau and Old T take one out in a single turn.

These ships are not "invincible". That's the point.  Their effects are powerful, yes, and they might even be the best ships on the table but something will always be the best.

Asajj gets a focus token from Mindlink.

An evade token.

And her pilot ability + Latts Razzi evade.

No one complains about the hyper defensive capabilities of Asajj, but people still complain about Jumpmasters.

This is because they are/were associated with super offense, which has the perception of being more overtly overpowered than super defense. The mechanics that make/made them overpowered is more overt than the mechanics that make Asajj overpowered.

Scum is the target of "jealousy or disdain" because a lot of its competitive stuff is(/was recently) based on super offense, which people tend to complain about more than super defense.

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1 minute ago, Turbo Toker said:

Asajj gets a focus token from Mindlink.

An evade token.

And her pilot ability + Latts Razzi evade.

No one complains about the hyper defensive capabilities of Asajj, but people still complain about Jumpmasters.

This is because they are/were associated with super offense, which has the perception of being more overtly overpowered than super defense. The mechanics that make/made them overpowered is more overt than the mechanics that make Asajj overpowered.

Scum is the target of "jealousy or disdain" because a lot of its competitive stuff is(/was recently) based on super offense, which people tend to complain about more than super defense.

You have to be in the mobile arc of a large base ship with low pilot skill and at range 1 to 2.

Even with a 1 point EPT and a single upgrade, she comes in at 40 points.  What do you expect?

You basically just wrote out a long explanation of power creep.  It's not overpowered unless it's significantly more powerful than the rest of the metagame.  A few times throughout the history of the game, this has come up. Namely the cloaking nerf, and deadeye scouts.  

Frankly, I don't know what you hope to achieve from these complaints.  As new ships and mechanics and combinations come into play, new combos and optimal ways to play will appear.  It's part of the lifecycle of any competitive game.

 

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I have to take Turbo Tokers side here. It takes a miracle to somehow get out of her mobile arc and/or stay at range 3. Even if you stay at range 3, she's evading 3 hits a turn on average rolls. 40 points is d*** cheap for what you get. Which is why it's part of parattanni, it's above average offense and defense, for below average cost, plain and simple.

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