That feeling of when to quit

[Lyraeus 4,759]

The question is simple "Why do I want to change?" the follow up is "Where do I want this to take me" 

 

Finding the question is simple. 

[GhostofNobodyInParticular 2,493]

2 hours ago, Lyraeus said:

So what is the solution then. Hmmm

42

2 hours ago, Frimmel said:

No. You're getting ahead of yourself. What's the question? 

Sorry, couldn't resist, the sentence order was perfect. . .  

On another note I wanted to state that I agree with what Frimmel, GiledPallaeon and Reinholt are saying.

Edited April 10, 2017 by NobodyInParticular

[Lord Ashram 988]

 My honest opinion? If nobody wants to play with you, you should probably not play with people.  Sounds like you might be spoiling everyone else's chance at a good time, and that's not fair.  Spoiling a fun game with competitiveness should not happen. 

Edited April 11, 2017 by Lord Ashram

[Ginkapo 9,320]

2 hours ago, Lord Ashram said:

 My honest opinion? If nobody wants to play with you, you should probably not play with people.  Sounds like you might be spoiling everyone else's chance at a good time, and that's not fair.  Spoiling a fun game with competitiveness should not happen. 

See here Lyraeus. If you needed proof that there are lots of @rseholes in the world, read this right here.

Nobody is perfect. Stop trying to be. 

[Frimmel 2,593]

4 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

See here Lyraeus. If you needed proof that there are lots of @rseholes in the world, read this right here.

Nobody is perfect. Stop trying to be. 

It was a pretty eloquent illustration of what Giled was getting at about it not being entirely your responsibility how others deal with you. It also speaks a bit to a conversation over in the X-wing board which got around to guys needing to make sure they're on the same page about which sort of game of X-wing they're playing i.e. a guy brought Han and Luke and the other brought a Tier 1 tourney list. 

[Lyraeus 4,759]

16 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

It was a pretty eloquent illustration of what Giled was getting at about it not being entirely your responsibility how others deal with you. It also speaks a bit to a conversation over in the X-wing board which got around to guys needing to make sure they're on the same page about which sort of game of X-wing they're playing i.e. a guy brought Han and Luke and the other brought a Tier 1 tourney list. 

I never intend to bring Tier 1. Typically I created my lists and flew them like Tier 1 lists. 

 

It is a valid point. Hmmm

[Lord Ashram 988]

5 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

See here Lyraeus. If you needed proof that there are lots of @rseholes in the world, read this right here.

Nobody is perfect. Stop trying to be. 

Hm, I don't think this is about me being an ahole.  If if there are a group of people who want to play a game, but there is one guy who plays and ruins it for everyone to the point where nobody will even play the game... Well, that goes a long way towards showing what the issue is.

Ly is a big boy.  He has dealt with this before, and seems able to take direct advice.  This is an issue he has spoken about, at length, on these forums, and has discussed trying to improve.  Evidently he isn't able to.  It isn't about being perfect, and my guess is that there is more going on than just competitive lists; for someone to literally be bad enough that an entire community dies out... Well, that's really, really bad.  So... Next logical step.

I am direct.  I am also the very definition of fly casual; I don't care at all who wins, as long as we get a few moments where both players can get low to the table, make some pew pew sounds, and grin together as we truly imagine a moment that could have been taken right the big screen.  And I am someone who doesn't believe that a bunch of people having fun playing a game should be ruined by what sounds like is someone who is over the top competitive and not enjoyable at all to play a game with.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Lord Ashram

[Lyraeus 4,759]

2 minutes ago, Lord Ashram said:

No.  If if there are a group of people who want to play a game, but there is one guy who plays and ruins it for everyone to the point where nobody will even play the game... Well, that goes a long way towards showing what the issue is.

Ly is a big boy.  He has dealt with this before, and seems able to take direct advice.  This is an issue he has spoken about, at length, on these forums, and has discussed trying to improve.  Evidently he isn't able to.  It isn't about being perfect; for someone to literally be bad enough that an entire community dies out... Well, that's really, really bad.  So... Next logical step.

I am direct.  I am also the very definition of fly casual; I don't care at all who wins, as long as we get a few moments where both players can get low to the table, make some pew pew sounds, and grin together as we truly imagine a moment that could have been taken right the big screen.  And I am someone who doesn't believe that a bunch of people having fun playing a game should be ruined by what sounds like is someone who is over the top competitive and not enjoyable at all to play a game with.

 

So our definition of fun competes with each other. 

My view of fun is putting myself across the table of an opponent and pitting my skills vs there's. To see who wins and what works and what does not. Sadly I have a General's/Admirals mentality on that. In the end I want to be victorious, to know my skills were enough to triumph. 

 

As for being unable to "fix" those issues, I used time for that and it seems that the grudges still hold. I stayed away from tournaments and other such things to try and let people know I was trying to be less competitive. Oh and I play to play as much as I can though I do fall into bad habits of wanting to win. 

 

At this point I feel as if in a pit slicked with oil. There seems to be no way out. 

[Lord Ashram 988]

4 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

So our definition of fun competes with each other. 

My view of fun is putting myself across the table of an opponent and pitting my skills vs there's. To see who wins and what works and what does not. Sadly I have a General's/Admirals mentality on that. In the end I want to be victorious, to know my skills were enough to triumph. 

 

As for being unable to "fix" those issues, I used time for that and it seems that the grudges still hold. I stayed away from tournaments and other such things to try and let people know I was trying to be less competitive. Oh and I play to play as much as I can though I do fall into bad habits of wanting to win. 

 

At this point I feel as if in a pit slicked with oil. There seems to be no way out. 

 

Unfortunately, given the situation and limited number of people around, this particular community might not be for you... I think there comes a point when they've just made up their minds.  I mean, you could attempt to explain that you want to change and all of that, but for people to play a game they have to BOTH want to play.  As someone who sees games primarily as a social opportunity to have fun, the idea of gaming with someone who isn't a fun person to sit across from and push Star Wars ships around for two or three hours is enough for me not to play.  Human nature is what it is, and it is unlikely that people can fundamentally change how they are.  You are austistic, right Ly?  That doesn't make that change, the evening out of your nature with positive social interaction, any easier.

 

I would echo that Vassal sounds like a perfect solution.  That, or finding a totally new community, which might be hard.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Lord Ashram

[Lyraeus 4,759]

1 minute ago, Lord Ashram said:

 

Unfortunately, given the situation and limited number of people around, this particular community might not be for you... I think there comes a point when they've just made up their minds.  I mean, you could attempt to explain that you want to change and all of that, but for people to play a game they have to BOTH want to play.  As someone who sees games primarily as a social opportunity to have fun, the idea of gaming with someone who isn't a fun person to sit across from and push Star Wars ships around for two or three hours is enough for me not to play.  Human nature is what it is, and it is unlikely that people can fundamentally change how they are.  You are austistic, right Ly?  That doesn't make that change, the evening out of your nature with positive social interaction, any easier.

Aspergers to be specific. Social interactions are hard for me since they are essentially foreign and I did not pick them up as a kid so effectively I am a decade behind most people. Add that to a low self esteem where winning helps boost that and losing can make me fall lower and we have a bad combination. 

 

The game is fun and I have fun games. My last game was a blast and I lost by a single point. 184 to 183! It was a great game and fun. Got to play against a flotilla spam list and was able to learn a lot. Both of us enjoyed the game and it was a challenge which is what I want. 

[Lord Ashram 988]

 Yeah, I thought I remembered that.  That is what sort of makes me believe it isn't so much about winning and losing for the other people; it is more about having an enjoyable social experience, which is tougher for you to do.  I mean hell, I've met a LOT of gamers, and gamers in general struggle with social stuff, soooo... And if that pool of players has basically given up to the point where they've given up on the entire game, my guess is that winning them back will be nearly impossible:(

Edited April 11, 2017 by Lord Ashram

[Drasnighta 26,831]

1 minute ago, Lord Ashram said:

 And if that pool of players has basically given up to the point where they've given up on the entire game, my guess is that winning them back will be nearly impossible:(

I don't disagree.  But that's on them as much as it is on Lyr, too.

[Lyraeus 4,759]

3 minutes ago, Lord Ashram said:

 Yeah, I thought I remembered that.  That is what sort of makes me believe it isn't so much about winning and losing for the other people; it is more about having an enjoyable social experience, which is tougher for you to do.  I mean hell, I've met a LOT of gamers, and gamers in general struggle with social stuff, soooo... And if that pool of players has basically given up to the point where they've given up on the entire game, my guess is that winning them back will be nearly impossible:(

Never said they gave up on the game. They still play and hold tournaments but they shun me and where I play it seems. At least that is what I have been told. 

[Lord Ashram 988]

1 minute ago, Lyraeus said:

Never said they gave up on the game. They still play and hold tournaments but they shun me and where I play it seems. At least that is what I have been told. 

 OK got it. Still doesn't look good for you. 

 

 And yes, it might be on both sides, but people are allowed to say "I really don't like playing with this person, they ruin the experience, I will not play with them anymore." That's not necessarily some horrible thing  for someone to do . And if multiple people got to that point, it probably took a while to push them there. 

[Drasnighta 26,831]

7 minutes ago, Lord Ashram said:

 OK got it. Still doesn't look good for you. 

 

 And yes, it might be on both sides, but people are allowed to say "I really don't like playing with this person, they ruin the experience, I will not play with them anymore." That's not necessarily some horrible thing  for someone to do . And if multiple people got to that point, it probably took a while to push them there. 

Not necessarily.  

But (in my own experience, for example, not directly in Lyr's case), turning around to a store owner and saying "If this person comes to any of your events, we will not, and that will kill your store, so deal with them." isn't exactly helpful, either.  That has happened to people I know.  Without understanding the entirety of the situation, its difficult to make guesses and statements.

I have spent a good long while talking with Lyr directly on these and other issues.  There isn't a simple solution, because there's not a simple situation.

[Ginkapo 9,320]

I cant stand playing anyone who flys "fully casual" personally. If you dont even slightly want to win there is limited point to me.

Sometimes I play people who want to test out fleets. Still worrhwhile as their purpose.

I dont see why pushing ships around without a desire to achieve anything is fun.

Thats just me. 

[Forresto 2,200]

On April 10, 2017 at 0:28 AM, Lyraeus said:

Tempting. Moving though is expensive and without a job set up it is dangerous 

Yeah but not as expensive as Armada 

[Lord Ashram 988]

20 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

I cant stand playing anyone who flys "fully casual" personally. If you dont even slightly want to win there is limited point to me.

Sometimes I play people who want to test out fleets. Still worrhwhile as their purpose.

I dont see why pushing ships around without a desire to achieve anything is fun.

Thats just me. 

 

You are maybe missing the bigger picture.

The pushing around of little plastic space ships, while talking Star Wars and telling stories and laughing, IS achieving something...  Something far greater than determining who scored more points in some arbitrary win-loss algorithm.  

At the end of the day, it is that experience that most people enjoy and remember from their gaming.  Take that away for long enough, and people stop gaming.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Lord Ashram

[Lyraeus 4,759]

3 minutes ago, Forresto said:

Yeah but not as expensive as Armada 

I don't know. I only have at least 2 of everything and in some cases 3-5 of things (silly VSD's... Oh and 5 Nebs.) 

It would be nice but the community I have fostered in Dropfleet, and some other games would make me sad to leave. 

Something I will do eventually but for now... Maybe not. 

[Ginkapo 9,320]

4 minutes ago, Lord Ashram said:

 

You are maybe missing the bigger picture.

The pushing around of little plastic space ships, while talking Star Wars and telling stories and laughing, IS achieving something...  Something far greater than determining who scored more points in some arbitrary win-loss algorithm.  

At the end of the day, it is that experience that most people take away from gaming.  Take that away for long enough, and people stop gaming.

This is one of those cases where we can both enjoy the game our own way. Thats ok. 

[Frimmel 2,593]

1 hour ago, Lyraeus said:

I never intend to bring Tier 1. Typically I created my lists and flew them like Tier 1 lists. 

 

It is a valid point. Hmmm

With Armada there is far less variance in "power" between lists. There are bad matchups and the whole activation advantage arms race but Armada is in a far better place for that than is X-wing. With X-wing it is far easier to show up to a casual night with widely divergent powers in lists.

I'm speaking more to both the list and what the intention of the players with regards the game is. Is it on the lines of practicing for a tourney following strict rules, tourney lists but with takebacks and laxer enforcement to see how different decisions play out, or maybe strictly a thematic exercise with a setup mimicking an episode or "Rebels" with lax enforcement regarding missing taking a token but no take-backs.

You have to be on the same page as others as to what will be regarded as "fun." This isn't all there is to actually having fun (and there is the whole part where guys will call their copy of a Regional Champ list a "casual" list) but things work best if both players are starting in the same space. 

1 minute ago, Ginkapo said:

I cant stand playing anyone who flys "fully casual" personally. If you dont even slightly want to win there is limited point to me.

Sometimes I play people who want to test out fleets. Still worrhwhile as their purpose.

I dont see why pushing ships around without a desire to achieve anything is fun.

Thats just me. 

Agreed. The point of playing the game is to try and win. Trying to win doesn't mean being a disagreeable person though. I tend to think "fly casual" is far too often used as a bludgeon and an excuse or maybe as a means to shift responsibility for your feelings on to others. But this goes back to what I was trying to get at above with both players being on the same page with regards to "fun." 

Back in my pool playing days I used to have difficulties with folks who seemed to want to play badly. They didn't "care" that they missed a shot because they didn't have an attitude like they could make it in the first place. An air of "I'm bad at this so I don't have to try to be good." They'd get bent out of shape that I was disappointed for not making a shot they didn't even know how to line up. I tended not to get along with those people. I see a lot of that attitude in the folks who use "fly casual" as a bludgeon instead of as "don't be an a-hole."

[Lord Ashram 988]

2 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

This is one of those cases where we can both enjoy the game our own way. Thats ok. 

Sure, but I think one of those ways is more conducive towards getting other people, especially people who are not particularly competitive, to play against you, and to foster a thriving community.

[Drasnighta 26,831]

Just now, Lord Ashram said:

Sure, but I think one of those ways is more conducive towards getting other people, especially people who are not particularly competitive, to play against you, and to foster a thriving community.

Okay, but does that make the assumption that you cannot have a community of competitive people?

[Lord Ashram 988]

Just now, Drasnighta said:

Okay, but does that make the assumption that you cannot have a community of competitive people?

No, obviously not.  But it seems to me that the crowd that Lys is talking about isn't necessary that sort of community, that is purely in it for the competition with no regard to the social nature of the game.  

Please understand I am not part of the "inner community" here.  I am not using "fly casual" as some bigger statement, and I don't know what underlying messages people see in it.  I am just a long time gamer who sees games as fun, and I know what generally works and what generally doesn't in gaming and social circles.  Most people game as a social experience and to have fun.  I get that this particular Internet forum has a higher percentage of competitive people, because those are the people who will more often seek out an Internet forum and post on it... But I think competitive players are by far the minority in any game, and I think maybe folks are getting an inaccurate picture of what people look for in games from the tiny group of regulars on here.  I mean... Dras, Gink, Ly... You guys are likely in the top couple percent, in terms of competitiveness, when you look at the Armada demo as a whole.

[Frimmel 2,593]

7 minutes ago, Lord Ashram said:

 

You are maybe missing the bigger picture.

The pushing around of little plastic space ships, while talking Star Wars and telling stories and laughing, IS achieving something...  Something far greater than determining who scored more points in some arbitrary win-loss algorithm.  

At the end of the day, it is that experience that most people take away from gaming.  Take that away for long enough, and people stop gaming.

This is the essence of making sure you have the same intentions for what is to be got out of the game as your opponents/fellow players. 

1 minute ago, Lord Ashram said:

Sure, but I think one of those ways is more conducive towards getting other people, especially people who are not particularly competitive, to play against you, and to foster a thriving community.

I don't want to play folks who aren't trying their best to win and have an attitude that they can. I don't think it is fun to play somebody who "isn't trying" which is very different that not caring "too much" that you win. 

You have to make sure you're playing with guys you're on the same page as.